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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
I IV V Help
I IV V Help
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PM42
1 post
Apr 01, 2013
5:23 AM
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Hi all, new to the forum and new to the harp. I'm really enjoying learning the instrument, but am running into a few confusions I hope this forum can help me clear up.
I'm wondering if you can help me understand how to execute the I IV V progression while improvising (and I've got a long way to go in terms of technique to be able to improvise well, but I'm trying to get a grasp of the theory). I've got a little guitar background, so I understand what the progression is, and how it works in a 12-bar blues (Adam's counting videos are helpful). And I also understand that the -2, 4, -4 is a standard I IV V position in cross harp (well: I think I understand that... is it correct?).
What I don't understand is where and how other notes come in. So, for example, if you are "playing the I chord" over the first four bars of a blues, you are not going to play the two draw over and over, and then move to playing the 4 blow over and over for the IV chord. So I'm wondering what notes are available or "in play" during each chord and, more importantly, how to determine that.
I've got the tab sheet to Adam's "Mississippi Front Porch Blues," and I see that the person who wrote out the sheet noted the I IV and V bars, but I am having trouble understanding what it is about the notes that necessarily make them part of each particular chord in the progression.
Thanks very much for any help,
Pat
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JInx
423 posts
Apr 01, 2013
5:36 AM
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Take a song like hoodie coochie man, by muddy wAters, and analyse the notes he sings over the harmony. Write them down, it's only 3 or 4 notes. Compare those notes to the chord tones, mix and match. Read up on scales.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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Frank
2125 posts
Apr 01, 2013
6:10 AM
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SuperBee
1039 posts
Apr 01, 2013
1:28 PM
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There are no doubt many ways to approach it, but if you think about the scales for each chord and the chord tones in those scales it might be a good way to get into it.
You could practice arpeggios or bass lines, of the chords.
Thinking about a C harp in second position to play a I-IV-V, so using the scales of G, C, D. Probably think about a mixolydian scale, using a flat7...
GABCDEFG
CDEFGABbC
DEF#GABCD
For one thing, You can see there are only 2 notes in those scales which are different, so when you play those notes it really gives a strong sense of the chord. (The Bb of course could be a flat3 in the I chord)
If you pick out the chord tones in those scales and play them relative to the changes, you'll soon hear it
Try something like 1/4 notes in a typical bass pattern, like root, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7b, 6th, 5th, 3rd
(When you get to the V chord you will only have time for half the pattern, or you could play the whole thing, and just not play the IV chord, try it both ways)
Of course, this requires you to be able to get the F# as well as the F, and to play the A and Bb sequentially, but you wanna do that anyway, so its not bad to practice.
Try playing arpeggios of the major triad for each chord, try Arpeggios of a 7th chord...try picking out other patterns too...
Just an idea. Hope it may be useful.
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Last Edited by SuperBee on Apr 01, 2013 1:31 PM
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King Casey
6 posts
Apr 01, 2013
1:39 PM
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I'd have to agree with S.B.
Simply stick to the chord tones and get them down.
G,B,D,F
C,E,G,Bb
D,F#,A,C
The 3rds and 5ths are strong sign posts to the audience as to which chord you are in.
Keep it simple until you're comfy with the chord tones and then use other notes as passing tones.
cheers, Mark.
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Gnarly
526 posts
Apr 01, 2013
4:30 PM
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My experience with the blues (and I have some) is that you would improvise over bars 5 thru 8 with a scale that resembles Dorian, so with a C harmonica in the key of G (second position), Gm6.
In practical terms, I find that the same draw notes I use for the first four bars are still emphasized, with the draw third bent more--giving you more of a Bb than the blue third you would use over the G7.
I am, however, a better guitar player than harp player, so YMMV
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Frank
2143 posts
Apr 01, 2013
7:20 PM
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Yeah man...Learn to play and master those bass lines through the progression and you will have a firm foundation set that is mandatory and sorely needed to have the wherewith-all for exploring the other notes in a creative way which will lead to nurturing your most lustful harmonica fantasies.
Last Edited by Frank on Apr 01, 2013 7:24 PM
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nacoran
6635 posts
Apr 01, 2013
7:49 PM
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There are two ways to approach learning harmonica notes really... you can learn scale degrees for the different holes and bends, or you can learn the actual names of the notes. For most harp playing purposes the scale degrees will be more useful, since they immediately transfer from one harp to another, but once you are talking to someone who is playing a different instrument knowing the names of the notes can be useful.
My first question is where are you on key signatures? Do you know what notes are in each key? If you do, I'd just explain to play a note, skip a note, all in the same key, so C (skip D) E (skip F) G is the basic 3 note chord for the C chord (and you can also skip A and play B- just don't play B and C at the same time or you will get dissonance- of course, if you can play C and B at the same time, you are doing something pretty crazy to begin with since they are blow vs. draw notes!) You can play that over the one chord.
C of course is the easy key, since all the notes are natural- no flats or sharps.
If you don't know the notes in a key (lots of guitar players learn chord shapes not notes), then the answer is more complicated and involves looking at a piano keyboard. You don't have to have the stuff memorized but if you get the idea down it helps you visualize what is going on.
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Nate
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PM42
2 posts
Apr 02, 2013
4:28 AM
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All really helpful stuff, thanks folks.
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Greg Heumann
2082 posts
Apr 02, 2013
7:56 AM
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I would add (and it is part of the doc Frank posted): Learn the Blues Scale. Very easy. Those notes are the bluesiest and always work.
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/Greg
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