As a relative beginner, one of my biggest problems is when to start playing (or singing)..Typically, I come in too soon, and my band leader says to "wait for it".
Are there rules or guidelines to help me, especially with a twelve bar blues tune?
This applies to a lot of "things", it's not what you do but when you DON'T do it. Harp is unique though (I think). After qualifying with the big fat & obvious "It Depends", I will say that a really strong and signature harp line works well early in a song -but you better bring it.
Last Edited by Littoral on Mar 26, 2013 7:12 PM
What are you doing? Singing? Accompanying? Soloing? different answers depending.
If you're singing or soloing, it is up to your sense of phrasing, how the lyrics (or solo) lays out.
If someone else is singing or soloing and you're just going to accompany it is good to give them at least 12 bars while you do NOTHING. Then sneak in and complement, never overpowering the soloist. Note this approach also lets you LISTEN - IS it in fact a straight 12 bar blues? What's the turnaround like? ---------- /Greg
Since you say you are relatively new, are you talking about where in the progression, or where on the beat?
Personally, I have a terrible tendency to write music where the vocals come in without good cues, on upbeats with no one playing the note, on the beat right after a long sustained blow note when I have no air left. Finding the beat is a matter of practice. Finding where in the progression is a matter of counting and learning to listen for the changes, and talking with the other musicians about the arrangement. There are some songs where I start off on harp and I'm the only one playing. Other songs I wait.
"Are there rules or guidelines to help me, especially with a twelve bar blues tune?"
Yes, listening to slim harpo is one way to go. ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by JInx on Mar 26, 2013 9:06 PM
It is really important to be familiar with the chord changes in the songs you are singing and playing. When you know the changes you will know when to come in.
You can listen to a recording and practice counting the beats to yourself. I believe in immersing myself in a song until I know the changes and when to come in without even thinking about it. I recommend listening a LOT to the music you are playing, particularly listening to recordings of the song arrangements you will sing/play until you just hear it coming.
Songs often have introductions, but sometimes they just starting from the beginning of the song, or with a lot of blues, the beginning of the 12 bars.
Sometimes blues songs start from the V chord at the turnaround, like playing the end of the song before starting the 12 bars.
Sometimes the vocals jump right in at the start, sometimes instrumental solos begin right away.
You need to know the arrangement of the song. If the song starts on the V chord you don't want to jump in playing an intro solo on the I chord.
So there is no one rule as to when you come in... it depends on the song and the arrangement of the song.
Even if the song starts on the 1st bar of the 12 bar progression with no intro, you don't have to play right away. You can usually wait, let the other band members establish the groove, and just add a light touch of harp (playing notes suitable to what chord is playing during the chord progression).
Sometimes you will be asked to solo from the beginning. Play it confidently and make it fit the song. If you are going to play, make a statement: play it (sing it) like you mean it!
I struggled a lot when I was learning the timing for when to come in on the jazz song Cantaloupe Island. I listened and counted over and over until I got it. It was not intuitive to me until I heard it enough for it to sink in. I find 12 bar blues to be easier for me to figure out, even if the song is new to me.
It is helpful to watch the other musicians for visual cues while you listen for the changes. Even if you can't read the specific guitar chords being played, you can see the timing in when they make chord changes. If you have a bass player, listen to the bass line for the changes.
You could bring a recorder to rehearsals so you can listen to it by yourself afterward to figure it out. Maybe your band leader would spend an hour with you helping point out when to come in on each of the songs you do. The leader probably has a specific arrangement in mind for each song, and may not want harp at the beginning of each song. Ask...
You want your contribution to make the song better. Support the vocals (don't step on them! Less is more!), play less than your first impulse, and play what enhances the song, not just to be showing your technique.
By the way, when you first start out playing music (and even after years of playing!), sometimes you will just mess something up during a performance. Try not to let it fluster you too much when you are still performing, just keep playing the music like you didn't make a mistake. It is live music, so keep going with the song.
Practice, then have fun playing! Then practice... ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 27, 2013 3:06 PM
a) If the song starts on bar 1 with a 1-2-3-4 count, come in on either the first beat of bar 1 or the first beat of bar 3 (which is generally where your fill will be once the vocals start);
b) If the song starts on bar 9 (which is common with slow blues), come in on either the first beat of bar 10 (the IV chord) or the SECOND beat of bar 11 (the I chord before the turnaround)
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 28, 2013 6:40 PM
You already have an awareness that you're in the habit or have an impulse to enter the song to soon...If the band leader can point out to you what (it) is he wants you to wait for,the mystery will be solved :)
That gave me hell when I started out, once upon a time. And you and I are far from the only ones who´s had that problem (listen to the numerous takes of Elvis trying to come in on "Such a night") -- and, interestingly, it´s practically always coming in EARLY that fughs thinks up.
I hade a friend who was a more experienced musician than I and I used him mercilessly. I can still recall a loong session when we were sitting with our guitars while I was again and again trying to come in right on "Spanish eyes". In the end I got it, of course, but let me say that stern, guided supervision was a really good way to go. repeat and then repeat more. Some people count, but that only confused me; I wanted it in my body.
call and responce is blues style,when the singer does bar 1&2 you can respond in bar 3&4.after the singer does bar 5&6 you can come in 7&8 than singer does 9&10 ,you can come in on 11&12 with the turnaround.a blues band with a horn section is a great thing to listen to,they do it the way it`s supposed too...this is just for accompany,if you solo than you become the singer with the harp...
Thank you all for your responses. One further question: do you come in on the beat? I know Sonny Boy liked to come in early or late, but I'm not Sonny Boy.
Often, but not always. If you are playing with the emphasis on off beats make sure you stay on pattern. It's real easy to sound like you are just missing the beat. The song will have a lot of 'beats' but a lot of songs emphasize the 1 beat for coming in.
(it) asks the question at the 1:50 min mark and again at the 2:40 mark...(IT) could be a look, a wink, a nod, a smile - watch the band leader for a clue for when to enter :) What is it
Martin is correct, although all the other advise is much appreciated. I have trouble knowing when to start singing (or playing a solo). I gather that the answer is that is depends on the arrangement One can listen to the original song many times,or it would show on the sheet music (would it not?) Adam's advise is pretty specific, so I will listen for it. Sorry if my original post was unclear. I am specifically concerned with timing.
If you are struggling with accompaniment playing, listen to Little Walter. He was a master at many things including supporting the rest of the band. His accompanying licks are tasty, and easy to learn.
If it is a jam or informal group, I never come in until the groove has been established. Things can jangle too much at the beginning and I don't want to add to it.
After that it is "Big Ears, Big Eyes." Listen and watch. And remember that less is often more.
Here is a simple strategy for soloing: Start low and slow. Play a simple pattern, rest for a moment, and repeat it. Build the tension as the song moves toward the turnaround by moving higher on the harp. Keep it simple. Don't noodle. When you are done people will tell you it sounded great.
Do NOT try playing ahead of the beat or behind the beat. I know some of my harp friends here will disagree, but that is for only very accomplished players with equally accomplished bandmates. Play on the beat. You will sound MUCH better.
"I have trouble knowing when to start singing (or playing a solo)." Thus spake John, no less than two times. But they will keep on answering other questions that they wished you have posed.
Referring back to my earlier reply, here is a snippet from Elvis´ many failed entries to "Such a night" (actually it took several more takes for him to get it right). This is the kind of trouble you´re having, eh?
Hmmm, When to come in.... I assume you mean on harp. And harp players have a long and well deserved reputation for lack of discipline. So for me, the answer is when there is space in the music and you have something to contribute to the melody, rhythm or atmosphere of the piece. Remember silence is part of the music too. Perhaps the most important part so lay back. It's better to let the moment pass than rush in. As a beginner this has to be tough. So don't be too tough on yourself. Play and learn. ---------- Alex
It's always hard to give advice since you don't know if you are repeating what someone already knows, but here goes. Most music is built up around several basic chord progressions. A chord is, at it's simplest level, 3 notes that sound good together. In the key of C, you have these chords-
Basically, when the band is playing the one chord you want to be playing one of those notes (there are times you'll want to play something else, but it's one of those rules you don't get to break until you learn how not to break it first.
Watch Adam's videos 18 & 19. Not all songs are 12 bar, but enough are that if you can learn to hear the changes there it will help a lot (particularly in blues). You can play with how a song is arranged, but that's something you need to work out with the band.
Most songs are just repeated patterns based on a fairly simple chord structure. If you can learn a few basic chord progressions you'll be able to improvise over a bunch of songs. The 12 bar progression is the most common blues progression.
Here is a great audio example of another basic chord progression. If you aren't at the point where you can just hear where the changes are coming, you can count them. The more you count them and listen for them the better you will get.
