My current amp does not have a line out, so I am curious about how this works. When you connect the amp to a PA via the line out, can you still hear the amp as well? Can the amp then be used as a monitor? Thanks.
The line out comes off the speaker tap in your amp. That is the high power signal that drives your speaker. The signal for the line out is stepped down to "line level," a lower level feed that is a standard strength for passing signals from one electronic device to another.
Your harp amp will still sound exactly the same. The line out usually uses an instrument cable (like a guitar cable) to connect to a channel in the PA board.
It should not cost very much to get a tech to install a line out on your amp, since it is a simple job. It is a very handy thing to have. I have a line out on all my amps except the Bassman.
When i saw 'perfect answer' i just had to jump in. (philosophy 101)^ Don't some lineouts cut the feed to the amps speaker? I'm sure that an old peavey amp i used to own did that. Maybe not.
There are speaker out jacks that would cut the feed to an amp's speaker - but a line out shouldn't. That isn't to say that it didn't on some amp design. In that case the line out would not be coming from the speaker circuit (because disconnecting the speaker would remove so much load from the output transformer it might blow something up in the amp.) More likely it was more like a hi-fi type line out, coming right from the pre-amp section. In that case the line out is less reflective of the complete amp's tone. ---------- /Greg
On my Roland Mobile the only lineout option is through the headphones jack. Unsurprisingly, this cuts off the speakers. One of few objections I have against this little thing.
To add to this, you should check out the schematics of your amp, if possible.
My Oahu suitcase amp has a 1/4 input jack that the speaker is wired to. Unplugging the jack disconnects the internal speaker and then you plug into a pa.
This is by design (based on how Vintage 47 - David Barnes) and is wired per the old suitcase style amps.
At some point, I may get a true "line out" put in, but you should always check the wiring diagram if you are unsure.
"On my Roland Mobile the only lineout option is through the headphones jack. Unsurprisingly, this cuts off the speakers. One of few objections I have against this little thing."
Yeah, That'd be the one line out that WOULD cut off an amp's speakers.
One other note on line out jacks though....first amp I ever bought was a little Marshall MG10CD solid state. It had a dual function jack for CD in and "emulated line out". If your jack is marked emulated chances are one of two things, or possibly both. A: The output signal of it doesn't even measure up to typical line signal standards, more like more audio equipment values. B: The signal may actually come from the preamp section rather than the output stage. I haven't seen "emulated" line out jacks on any tube amp though. Only on budget line solid states. ----------
Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Mar 08, 2013 10:55 AM
John - To answer your original questions. Yes you can still hear your amps speaker and it can be used as your onstage monitor. One thing to consider though is that not all line outs sound good. It all depends where on the amp circuit it's taken from. I'd suggest sending an email to Mark Burness (5F6H) and give him the model of your amp and ask his advice on where the best place to take the line out from would be. He'll steer you in the right direction if you ask him nicely.
"NO, you should NOT unplug the speaker and plug a line-out into the speaker jack."
UNLESS....you're using an equalized DI box as your line out. I mounted a Peavey EDI in a Peavey Vypyr I had. Run the speaker jack or plug into the amp-input on the EDI, run another line from the speaker-out jack to the amp's speaker, and then you can run a balanced XLR cable from the EDI to the board.
As Tim points out, there are DI boxes that work well as line out devices. They are inserted inline in your speaker feed. It's easier if the speaker feed in your amp is a 1/4 inch plug. (Again, a good tech can do that for you without too much trouble.)
The DI that I prefer for this is the H&K Red Box Pro or Red Box Classic. They are no longer made but you can find them on eBay. They create a nice low impedance signal for your PA board. Behringer also makes some low-cost DIs that will do this.
Monk, it is possible to get better tone by using a microphone in front of the amp, but not always and not easily, and the mic presents a BIG opportunity for feedback if your harp sound is running through the monitors. Nasty!
Line out is easy and fast. You don't get any bleed over from other instruments and you don't have to fuss over mic placement. It's one fewer thing on stage to worry about or trip over. Set up is quicker.
If I'm playing a big room with a pro sound guy I'll let him mic it up and take care of everything. Otherwise, if I need PA support for the harp amp I use a line out.
I don't have a line out on the Bassman because I rarely need it, and when I do need it I am almost always playing a big room or festival that has a pro sound engineer who mics everything on stage.
Another issue with mic'ing is that room on stage is frequently tight and microphone placement is critical to getting the tone you want. Unless they're the "pick up from the side, drape over the amp" type mics (and they rarely are) the chances that that mic is going to get kicked/bumped/moved during performance is about 100%. ---------- /Greg
Rick, with the mission 32-20 is the line out pretty good? Still little need to mic?
And thanks for the response Greg. on a side note I can't wait for my mic to come in. Very excited. I know it'll be a while but I'm pumped.
Last Edited by Monk on Mar 08, 2013 9:46 AM
JD, the speaker is not left entirely out of the chain. The line out from the speaker tap sees the speaker reactance to the signal and passes it along to the PA. That plays a pretty big part in the tone.
Also, when you are mic'ing up your amp it means your tone is subject to the characteristics of the microphone. So neither method is entirely pure and transparent.
Here is a test of the tone that can be had using a line out into a PA system. The Mission 32-20 amp is sideways to reduce the sound that gets picked up by the video camera. Its volume is set on 3. In the first part of the video the amp is playing without the PA.
You can see me walk up to the amp and turn up the Line Out Level. This is unique to Mission Amps among harp amps. Very handy.
The line out signal carries the crunchy signal of the amp to the PA. I like the sound of the amp like this and I use Line Out when gigging in bigger clubs.
NOTE: I didn't use any audio normalization or compression on this video, but there may be some compression from conversion to AVI and upload to YT. The sound from the PA was WAY louder than the sound from the amp. That's all you are hearing in the 2nd part.
Here are the amp settings: (this was the prototype Mission 32-20 amp, so it has funky controls and labels)
Soon as I get around to it, I'm going to modify my Alamo with a few output jacks. External speaker jacks and a speaker driven line out. My reasons are the same as a lot of what's been mentioned in this thread so far. Stage space, feedback risk, and better volume and EQ control in the PA. I do like mic'ing my amps to get the truest possible tone of the amps' speakers, but as Rick has said, speaker driven lines out are pretty darn close, and they eliminate a lot of different issues that can vary from gig venue to gig venue. ----------
Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Mar 08, 2013 10:59 AM
JD, here is what you wrote: "I prefer micing the speaker and that's the only way you get the actual sound of your rig, otherwise the speaker is left out of the chain."
First of all, you don't get the "actual sound of your rig" by mic'ing it up because it is colored by both the microphone and the PA system. Second, the speaker is not "left out of the chain" when using a good Line Out.
I would agree with you that the best tone is from the amp by itself, unaided by the PA at all.
Microphones are highly susceptible to positional effects. You have to get it JUST right to get perfect tone. The position on the speaker (center to rim), the angle or axis, and the distance from the cone. All of those variable have an effect on the tone. And anybody who had played on stage with mics in front of amps knows they get kicked around a lot.
When everything is perfect a mic'ed up speaker can sound better than a good line out. But the question becomes, is it worth the extra hassle? My solution is this: If there is a really good sound guy to do it for me I'll roll with it. Otherwise it is a no brainer: line it out and be done with it. You get exactly the same good tone every time, for the whole gig.
I only tried this one time and I got major feedback from doing it, so I haven't tried it since. I put an SM58 in the cabinet of my Kalamazoo, thinking the solid oak cabinet I built for it would result in some good resonating tone. But as I said, FEEEEEEDDDBAAAACK. Are there any mics out there that would've allowed me to do this method successfully without the feedback? ----------
Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Mar 08, 2013 12:06 PM
