2chops
116 posts
Feb 28, 2013
9:27 AM
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Can someone please explain to me why some charts show the blow hole notes along the top instead of the bottom like an actual harmonica? My wife just got me Harmonica for Dummies for my b-day. Lots of great info BUT the note chart in the appendix is counter intuitive. It's my only beef with the book. I've seen this on other web sites also. Makes no sense to me.
Sorry for the rant. Any takers?
Ron
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2chops
117 posts
Feb 28, 2013
9:29 AM
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Supposed to say "draw hole notes along the top". Sorry.
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RyanMortos
1422 posts
Feb 28, 2013
9:58 AM
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That does sound... interesting. Do you have an example image I'm not sure I seen it Iike that before.
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~Ryan
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Jim Rumbaugh
836 posts
Feb 28, 2013
9:58 AM
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WELLLLLLL
I have seen a few French charts that way. But I agree, the most common is with BLOW ON TOP and DRAW ON BOTTOM.
Personally, I allways invisioned it with DRAW ON TOP in my mind. When I read a music, the higher pitch is always higher on the staff. The mental images that I draw in my head for breath patterns, always have the DRAW ON TOP. I'm too set in my ways to change now. I know that holes 7-10 are reveresed, from 1-6, but I still imagine it as draw on top.
In MY head, for the 1st 6 holes, the farther right, and the higher up, the higher the pitch (kinda), Almost like a musical staff tilted on it's side.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Feb 28, 2013 10:03 AM
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2chops
118 posts
Feb 28, 2013
10:26 AM
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Here's an upside down one from Gleen Weiser's page.
http://www.celticguitarmusic.com/harmonica_charts.htm Coast2coast music has a "normal" one on their diatonic instruction page.
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dougharps
354 posts
Feb 28, 2013
10:35 AM
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@2chops
Thank you for raising this question! I almost posted about this myself after seeing it in Winslow's book. When I referred to it when teaching a beginner, it was confusing to both of us.
I much prefer the notes being charted by the actual location of the reeds, which would be blow notes on top. It also coincides with standard tab, with the arrows for blow notes pointing up, and draw down.
I hope Winslow gives us an answer...
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Doug S.
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barbequebob
2205 posts
Feb 28, 2013
10:45 AM
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Putting things in perspective, one has to remember is that the harmonica was NEVER designed to do anything except play in first position and the richter tuning that is still used today, is set up for the two primary chords used in nearly every tune, the root chord and the V chord, so the blow reeds are all representative of the root chord and the draw reeds are representative of the V chord.
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Sincerely,
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dougharps
355 posts
Feb 28, 2013
11:03 AM
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@barbequebob
No dispute of what you posted about first position and the I and V chords. That is the original purpose of the Richter tuned harmonica.
How does that relate to how individual notes are represented on a harmonica reed chart? Why not show the blow notes on the top and draw on the bottom, consistent with tab and with the physical location of the reeds?
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Doug S.
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2chops
119 posts
Feb 28, 2013
12:00 PM
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I agree with Doug. I'm not arguing anything, just a question of practicality. Although, after looking at the upside down chart after reading Jim's post, I can see why Winslow and others have arranged it that way.
One reason it's kind of importent to me now, is because I'm working on a tricky bit of music for an upcomming program in a few weeks. Celtic/bluegrass style. The director is a music/drama teacher and keeps calling out hit this note or that note. I'm a play by ear guy. But I've been giving myself to learning more theory and such as goes with that. I really like Winslow's chart, and the one from Glenn Weiser because they have all the bends, over blows... It would be easier for me to have a chart displayed as the harp lies before ye.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
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nacoran
6541 posts
Feb 28, 2013
12:55 PM
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It's for the Australians. Duh! :)
Maybe Winslow will chime in. He's been know to haunt these halls from time to time.
The great thing about web references is you could have them set up with a button that would flip things however you wanted. I'd actually been thinking on a website, it would be great if colored charts could be 'recolored' by each user, so if they linked to it they could say, make it match or contrast with the red tool bar. I've seen charts that have toggles for showing overblows and such, but, for instance, I prefer bright colors. On a big screen it helps my eyes track information. For some people it causes eye fatigue. Not me. :)
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Nate
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dougharps
356 posts
Feb 28, 2013
2:07 PM
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Nacoran, didn't you put together a C diatonic layout chart including bends and overblows? My recollection is that it was a color chart with bends and overblows, with blow on top, draw on bottom.
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Doug S.
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AirMojo
345 posts
Feb 28, 2013
2:44 PM
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Mike Will's "Diatonic Harmonica Reference" has a layout generator that defaults to the draw notes being on top (you can optionally change it to have the blow notes on top--which is what I usually do).
Mike Will Diatonic Reference
Click the link on the left labeled: "Layout Generator".
In his documentation about the reasoning for having the draw notes on "top", he says:
"The layout generator allows you to specify whether the draw notes are on top, or the blow notes are on top. I prefer to think with the draw notes on top since if the 1 blow is C the 1 draw is D, which is higher than C, so it makes sense to show the draw note higher in a diagram. But, if you think in terms of how a harp is made, internally the blow reeds are higher than the draw reeds, and in most books the diagrams are shown that way. To me it doesn't matter how the thing is built.. it's how the notes are organized that is important. I normally show the draw notes on top, and that's the layout I'll describe here. It's just inverted for the blows-on-top layout."
So the reasoning is that "top" means "high" or "higher notes".
Last Edited by AirMojo on Feb 28, 2013 2:45 PM
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RyanMortos
1423 posts
Feb 28, 2013
2:45 PM
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Yo that draw on the top blow on the bottom image you shared doesn't match how one would visualize the notes. The draw notes are on the bottom reed, the blow notes on the top reed.
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~Ryan
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Last Edited by RyanMortos on Feb 28, 2013 2:46 PM
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RyanMortos
1424 posts
Feb 28, 2013
2:52 PM
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"So the reasoning is that "top" means "high" or "higher notes"" (airmojo).
Maybe I'm crazy but doesn't that make the diagram wrong in the 3rd octave?
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~Ryan
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RyanMortos
1425 posts
Feb 28, 2013
3:01 PM
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Maybe it's for people who hold their harp upside down, lol.
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~Ryan
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nacoran
6543 posts
Feb 28, 2013
3:08 PM
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Dougharp, yeah, I did one for C. I was going to do the whole set, but I was making too many silly typo type mistakes, so I asked a family member for some database tutorials so I could automate the input, and they kept putting me off and it kind of fell by the wayside.
I was also thinking maybe designing one to show how the notes arrange out into the I IV V and seeing if it would work as harp cover stickers (or Tom, feel free to steal the idea). It would be a good easy reference for beginners, but I'm not sure how to make it visually useful. Maybe a line of stickers for the positions, showing you which notes are in each scale?
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Nate
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Last Edited by nacoran on Feb 28, 2013 3:09 PM
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Jehosaphat
450 posts
Feb 28, 2013
3:17 PM
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Be careful if you go to that Mike Will diatonic reference site that @airmojo recommends.
You'll be there all day.^
Best harp site i've ever found on the net.
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Jim Rumbaugh
837 posts
Feb 28, 2013
3:31 PM
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@Ryan, Yes, the 3rd octave is different.
Different people learn differently. That's why there is more than one way to "chart notes". DRAW ON TOP has worked for me. Here's a diagram I had that I just now drew a "tilted staff" like I mentioned in my post above. It works in my head, but it may not in yours. :)
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Feb 28, 2013 3:34 PM
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RyanMortos
1426 posts
Feb 28, 2013
4:25 PM
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I can see how that's useful. Just a different way of looking at the same thing.
I don't bother with note charts anymore I know where all the notes on my harmonica are.
I can't say if I think this would be harder, easier, or just the same for a beginner who's learning.
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~Ryan
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Shaganappi
14 posts
Feb 28, 2013
8:39 PM
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The Blues Dummy book does have a lot going for it though. A lot of good information overall that is not easily found in one place. But yes, I agree, the Blow on the bottom throws me too although if we think of the first 8 holes being the prime real estate for the initial learning at least, then top=high pitch makes some sense for much of that area. I suspect that maybe the publishers forced Winslow to notate as he did. Some other writers being published by Wiley may have set a certain standard that he could not buck. Not sure.
We should be able to change our thinking about most anything with reason and fact finding. But if we were not reasoned into our frame of belief, then reasoning out of it becomes difficult.
Ask yourself why you came to believe and use what you do and then keep an open mind per what tab notation you should be using.
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lor
178 posts
Mar 01, 2013
7:56 AM
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Charts are a visual reference, meant to represent something else.
For my mind, that something is breathing.
When inhaling a draw note, the air of the breath moves downward into the lungs, for a blow note the breath moves upward (down from and up toward, the head, or mouth if you prefer).
That corresponds to the common use of arrows in harp tablature, to the movement of the diaphragm, and to the location of the reeds. That makes sense to me. To invert the relationship is a visual trick for some other purpose, which I find confusing.
Last Edited by lor on Mar 01, 2013 8:03 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
839 posts
Mar 01, 2013
9:31 AM
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@ Lor Thank you so much
I have NEVER liked the "arrows" symbol and could never remember what is what. Maybe that's why I taught myself backwards.
But I will be able to remember what the arrows mean, for the first time in my life.
Thanks
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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lor
179 posts
Mar 02, 2013
7:20 AM
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@Jim R I am intrigued by your slanted staff chart also.
It's a nice way of showing the breathing pattern which produces the scale. Since 2nd position starts with and is mostly draw notes, having draw on top makes sense. You tempt me to try drawing similar charts for the other positions and scales.
In this case, your chart has a different purpose than harp tablature, and works for its purpose.
Last Edited by lor on Mar 02, 2013 7:21 AM
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