jayrich
1 post
Feb 25, 2013
8:58 AM
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okay, hi guys..so i have asked a few pro harpists about this...but was hoping for abit more info pls?
so, I have finally found all my draw/blow bends…I know this because my online tuner says so…and when I play songs or the scales…they sound “in place”….
the problem is…these bends sound so harsh (esp hole 3) and different from my natural notes..they stick out a mile…
so, do you have guys have any tips on how I can make these bends…smoother…so they blend in with my normal notes..when I play?
Thanks… :)
Jay
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FMWoodeye
574 posts
Feb 25, 2013
9:48 AM
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When I first learned to bend, I was "trying" hard to bend, thus using more wind and getting a harsher, uncontrolled sound....though sometimes you want that broad BWAAAH sound, i.e., 2-hole full-step bend. I heard Ronnie Shellist do a little turn at the end of a phrase, 2-hole draw, 2-hole full-step bend, 1-hole draw, back to the bend and up to the 2-hole draw again. The bent note had the same volume and timbre as the other notes. As Iceman pointed out in a recent thread re: overblows, finesse is important. Try playing the bent notes softer, practice. I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box, but my guess is you're using more force on the bent notes.
Last Edited by FMWoodeye on Feb 25, 2013 9:49 AM
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harpdude61
1625 posts
Feb 25, 2013
9:50 AM
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Try playing them softly while relazing as much as possible. Eliminate any tension in mouth, jaw, tongue, etc. It takes time but they will come. I remember the day the two draw bend was as easy or maybe easier the 2 draw. Keep practicing.
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stokeblues
13 posts
Feb 25, 2013
12:31 PM
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i guess your bends are puckerd,i played 3 years puckerd until ibent the notes tongue blocked and now its all tongue blocking and i gotta try to get some pucker back to stop sounding a bit stale,my advice is dont push yourself to hard, relax,gotta be natural,your not a robot and take it easy it'll break through,relax the mouth dude!!
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nacoran
6529 posts
Feb 25, 2013
1:48 PM
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How harsh is harsh? One man's harsh is another man's wail! Make sure you've got a clean bend with none of the next note over stuck in there unless it's supposed to be.
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Nate
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RyanMortos
1419 posts
Feb 25, 2013
2:58 PM
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Just like overblows and overdraws and just about any other technique. Practice practice practice. Practice with chromatic tuner, practice with piano, practice while playing Oh Suzannha, practice while playing Ode To Joy. Then practice practice practice some more. Even after years of doing that a 3 blow will be more easily on pitch, lol.
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~Ryan
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jayrich
2 posts
Feb 26, 2013
6:26 AM
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Hi guys...thank you soo much for your replies...
I suppose the key words that stick out for me are...
soft, finesse, relax...
i am surprised at how little there is available on the net re this problem...ppl always talk about HOW to bend...but very few ppl talk about how to REFINE your bends...and both seem equally important IMHO!
Thanks again!
Jay
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FMWoodeye
576 posts
Feb 26, 2013
8:09 AM
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Soft, finesse, relax....and lots of practice.
While you're at it, as part of the learning process, pay attention to your intonation. I have a regular bend-intonation exercise I go through every day on harps of two different keys.
You will probably find that as you move up or down from a C harp (in my mind C is in the middle and was the easiest for me to bend) you will have to make slight adjustments in your technique.
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jayrich
3 posts
Feb 26, 2013
8:33 AM
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ahh...yes, of course, FMWoodeye...i missed practice!!
Can you tell me more about your bend-intonation exercise please?
what am i looking for...when i am paying attention to the intonation...? as in, am I looking for, the differences in intonation between straight notes and bent notes?
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FMWoodeye
577 posts
Feb 26, 2013
9:48 AM
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Well, when you play a straight blow or draw, the note from that hole is produced, and intonation is not really a problem. If you take, for instance, the 2-hole draw, there are three tones there, the straight draw, then a half-step bend and a full-step bend. You can bend a little below the full step, and that would be poor intonation, a little flat. If you don't make it all the way down, that too is poor intonation, a little sharp. In other words, you're not hitting the note that you're choosing. When you hit a key on a piano, the note for that key flies out and intonation is not an issue. Now, on a trombone, if you move the slide a little too far or not far enough, your tone will be sharp or flat. You also need to practice the bends both descending and ascending. If you've played other instruments, your ear will be able to discern half steps. If not, a keyboard can be helpful. If you want to get together on speaker phone or Skype I can demonstrate my excercise for you. My email is lzoia@comcast.net
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jayrich
4 posts
Feb 27, 2013
2:54 AM
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Ah, I see..FMWoodeye...this makes perfect sense..thank you!
And, also, I would love to get together and skype...for you to demonstrate this exercise for me..and also get some input into my bending as a whole..
thank you again (to all that replied)...and I will hook up with you on skype at some point this week!!
Jay
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The Iceman
761 posts
Feb 27, 2013
5:51 AM
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A key to solving these intonation problems is simple "LONG TONES"..
In other words, sustain each note for a LONG TIME. See how long you can produce the note - 30 seconds is not that difficult to achieve.
Once you hang a note in the air for 30 seconds, it allows you a lot of time to actually LISTEN to what you are producing. Once you are truly listening in the moment, a long tone also allows you to begin to shape it - moving it away from a sound you are not happy with and towards your preconceived notion of good tone.
You will learn all about the subtle changes your mouth, tongue, throat make to shape your notes through LONG TONES.
I feel the ultimate goal is to move as close to equal tone for all notes on the harmonica - whether "given" or "createdthroughtechnique" - so much so that the audience shouldn't really be able to tell if you are inhaling, exhaling, using bend techniques, etc. All they should hear are notes.
One good place to start is with the 3 hole first inhale bend.
First you have to have a solid preconceived perception in your inner ear of this note's correct pitch.
Next, you "dial in the note" using your technique.
Once it is on pitch, explore it through "LONG TONE" - sustain it for 30 seconds or more and really get inside it, shaping the tone so that it sounds very similar to a given note.
Finally, you want to be able to hit it right on pitch from silence to note. This means setting up your inner mouth technique to the correct "target spot" before you inhale.
Once you can achieve this level, you can begin to control and play with the pitch in a bluesy style.
You'd be surprised how many players who consider themselves int/adv that can't really hit this one note convincingly. (Paul Butterfield was a good example of one who mastered this particular note and used it a lot).
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The Iceman
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Gnarly
489 posts
Feb 27, 2013
8:38 AM
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Great advice--
30 seconds is a lot for me . . . still great advice, thanks Larry!
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jayrich
5 posts
Feb 27, 2013
8:42 AM
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thanks The Iceman...funnily enough LONG TONES didnt occur to me...though i have heard them mentioned time and time again for instruments ...like the saxophone...
Also the first step 3 draw...is the hardest note to bend on the C harmonica for me...in fact...it scares me!
But thanks will add this to my quest of refining my bends!
Jay
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The Iceman
762 posts
Feb 27, 2013
6:16 PM
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@gnarly..
30 seconds is not as difficult as you might think. You can build up to it slowly. The idea is to learn steady breathing in and out - controlled - without the note wavering or varying in volume. Also, once again, not force, but finesse. You'd be surprised at how much volume you get by steady breathing through the harmonica as opposed to sucking and blowing.
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The Iceman
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BronzeWailer
905 posts
Feb 27, 2013
6:57 PM
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Sounds like great advice, Iceman! I am trying it while holding down the same note on my cheap Casio keyboard to anchor me to the right pitch.
My YouTube
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The Iceman
763 posts
Feb 28, 2013
6:56 AM
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LONG TONES is a great way to self correct and/or teach yourself a lot in regards to refining technique.
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The Iceman
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mlefree
79 posts
Feb 28, 2013
8:45 AM
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Three tips:
1) Are you really hitting those bends spot-on? Make sure that you nail them from the very initiation of the note -- don't hit a bent note even slightly off-pitch and then "cheat" it into pitch. Baaad habit! Try starting those pesky bent notes just a little more percussivley. Yes be relaxed, but hit those bent notes with authority, don't just "coax" them out.
2) Make the tip of your tongue stay at the bottom of your mouth. I like to anchor it at the back of my lower front teeth when I am puckering. One of my teachers pointed out that many if not most pucker benders inadvertently have their tongue wagging up inside their mouth when they bend. This is a consequence of the way many players first learn to bend by pronouncing vowels. After you first learn to bend at pitch, you are half way there. All the bending can be done with the back of the tongue and throat. Witness tongue-blocked bends. Bending at the back of the throat yields markedly improved tone over front of the mouth bends. It also preps you for a good vibrato.
3) Learn to play melodies and then learn to play them in different positions. Playing melodies is not only fun but doing so in a deliberate, orderly way can make dramatic improvements in not only playing at pitch but playing with deep, resonant tone. Take, for example a simple tune like "Goodnight Irene." That tune lays out very nicely in 1st position with only one bend, starting at 2 draw/3 blow. When you have that tune locked in your mind plying it that way so that the correct pitches are cemented in your mind, try playing it starting at 1 draw. A whole new world of bending skills are required to play it that way. But, it's loads of fun!
Michelle
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jayrich
6 posts
Mar 01, 2013
1:11 AM
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Thanks Michelle..
Totally new tips to what I ve been told so far…and things I certainly wasn’t aware of!
Jay
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The Iceman
764 posts
Mar 01, 2013
6:34 AM
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After years of analysis and teaching, I've come to the conclusion that bending is controlled completely by position of the tongue only.
Those that talk about bending using the throat are most likely doing what I call "bundling" - combining two or more aspects of mouth/tongue/throat movement unconsciously. This is pretty prevalent within the teaching approach.
What this means is that they may be focusing on - say - the throat to bend. What they are doing is opening the throat and bundling that with a correct tongue position as well, but not being totally aware of the tongue. Therefore, they feel it is the throat that is in control of the pitch.
Once you learn to "unbundle" combined muscles, you can get closer to the true source of the control.
I've found that the throat (opening of) controls the tone of the note - the larger you open the throat (what I call a "Pre-Yawn Attitude"), the more you get a deeper and richer tone. This is easy to demonstrate for yourself if you talk in a relaxed voice and start to gently open the throat up while doing so. You will notice that your voice starts to sound deeper and richer - in fact, this is exactly the technique used in radio/tv newscast training to give the voice a "James Earl Jones" type richness.
Now, the muscles in the throat and the muscles used to move your tongue are not connected in any way, so it is interesting to start to explore each aspect alone without bundling them together as one experience.
As mlefree mentioned (and as I've mentioned numerous times in other postings regarding bending techniques), I instruct students to pretend that the tip of their tongue is super glued to the spot where their lower teeth and gums meet. If you do this and then extend your tongue forward, the middle of the tongue will naturally curl up towards the roof of the mouth.
It is learning where to "aim" this lump in your tongue towards reference points on the roof of the mouth (the ones I call the "T", "D", "Rrrrr", "K", "Guh" and "CHA" spots. btw, "CHA" is not cha as in "cha cha", but rather a Jewish or Germanic type sound).
The tongue is the amazing acrobatic muscle which allows one to "slide" that lump forward or back, redirecting the air flow up and over it, which is the key to creating and controlling all bends - inhale and exhale.
So, try unbundling everything to get to the minimal use of muscle control for the maximum effect.
Use the throat to create deep and rich tone and control the tongue to create your bends.
I've found it's much easier to teach a total beginner student to bend this way than to work with someone who has played for a while and developed bad habits or incorrect conclusions which have to be unlearned.
My beginning students have all learned to bend to correct pitch within one or two weeks of working with them on this awareness.
It's worth a little thought and exploration amongst all of you who consider yourself int/adv players, too. You may just learn something of value.
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The Iceman
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jayrich
7 posts
Mar 04, 2013
2:25 AM
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ICEMAN...thank you...that is as thorough an explanation of bending I could ever ask for....
and when i was practicing without using the tounge at all (anchoring it straight)..it did seem like I was going backwards and not forwards with my technique...
so, back to the drawing board..but I am encouraged by your reply!!
Jay
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The Iceman
768 posts
Mar 04, 2013
6:39 AM
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@jayrich..
take your time and let me know if you have success with this approach.
Remember, it's not force, but finesse. You don't need a lot of breath.
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The Iceman
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WinslowYerxa
270 posts
Mar 04, 2013
3:10 PM
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I happen to agree with iceman on the unbundling issue.
Getting back to the "harsh" question. Again, all the advice is good but addresses that specific question indirectly.
Bent notes will never sound identical in tonal color to unbent notes. But they can be played with a full, resonant tone.
You can force a reed to change pitch and get low volume, harsh sound, and poor control. Or you can persuade it and get good colume, rich tone, and superb control.
First, check your lips. Never bend by obstructing the hole with your lips. This fails all three tests and cannot be improved to meet them.
Second, make sure you're breathing gently and deeply. place your hand just below the apex of your ribcage and say HA! HA! HA! like a staged belly laugh. Feel how your diaphragm bounces with each HA!. That's the motor for deep breathing.
By breathing deeply using the diaphragm, you set your entire air column in motion. And all that air in motion, however gently it moves, has a lot of mass. That mass gives you some advantages:
The mass has power over the reed because it carries implied force, like a heavy hammer giving a light tap to a large nail. This gives you the control.
The mass also gives the vibration of the reed a larger space to resonate. This gives you more volume, and also helps with tone.
So, in between the belly and the lips, your throat and tongue both have influence over your sound.
Bunching up the tongue at the front of your mouth brings out all the bright, harsh overtones in a note. Some players know how to use this deliberately to create tonal contrasts, but your default should be to get the tongue out of the way of your sound.
The throat should be open as if you're yawning. This lets air move easily in large volumes without drag. It also lets sound into your lower air column for more resonance.
When you bend, finding and activating the sweet spot to pinch the air flow will tune your mouth to the note you want and the bend will happen easily, without effort. And having all that open, deep, air flow will help you both control it and amke it sound full and sweet.
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Winslow
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KingoBad
1260 posts
Mar 04, 2013
3:52 PM
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Have you tried hyperbaric oxygen therapy?
That should help get rid of most of your bends, but there may be some lasting effects...
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Danny
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The Iceman
770 posts
Mar 04, 2013
5:38 PM
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Winslow and I have been on a very similar path for the same number of years and have come to some of the same conclusions, even borrowing terms/concepts from each other in developing our approaches. After all, we in the harmonica world don't live in a vacuum and there are a lot of good ideas tossed out to the harmonica masses (A spin on the "great minds think alike" approach).
The one area in which we diverge is Winslow's statement - and I quote - "Bent notes will never sound identical in tonal color to unbent notes."
Never is a pretty powerful word.
I believe that some of the notes created through bending technique can be made to sound identical in tonal color to unbent notes.
My conviction that this is possible has led me in a different direction than those that don't have this belief.
Many times I have played diatonic in which notes created through bending technique sound identical to those "given" to qualified listeners...ie, other advanced players.
One night at Augusta Heritage Blues Week, Phil Wiggins grabbed my harmonica out of my hands to examine it, convinced I was using a special tuned one.
One day during Howard Levy's Advanced Harmonica Class at Augusta Heritage, I made him believe I was playing in second position when, in fact, I was playing in 11th position. His ears are pretty darned good and he was truly surprised that I was able to fool him.
I do agree that the OB/OD are very difficult to make sound "seamless", or equal in tone weight and color to "given" and many of the traditional bending technique notes, although I have had some measure of success in also fooling advanced players' ears with my technique and the placement of OB/OD.
I'm not so interested in going into a sound tech laboratory and hooking up to an oscilloscope as I am satisfied with the results on other human beings with "big ears".
So much depends on your belief system.
If you believe it is not possible, so be it.
If you believe it is possible, so be it.
I'm a believer. (Then I saw her face - la la de da de da :)
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The Iceman
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jayrich
8 posts
Mar 05, 2013
6:55 AM
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Iceman...will most certainly let you know how i get on with this advice...
Quick question re...WinslowYerxa......so in your post you mention:
"Bunching up the tongue at the front of your mouth brings out all the bright, harsh overtones in a note. Some players know how to use this deliberately to create tonal contrasts, but your default should be to get the tongue out of the way of your sound."
- Does this mean you suggest NOT using the tongue for bending? i.e. not to pin it to the bottom of the teeth and hump it...and just to use the throat...
...as at the moment as Iceman says...I am using the tongue...with an open throat..without obstructing the holes??
Haha...and Kingobad...i havent entirely ruled out hyperbaric oxygen...lets see how desperate i get lol :s
Jay
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The Iceman
778 posts
Mar 05, 2013
7:01 AM
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Jayrich...
Winslow and I disagree on a few key points regarding technique.
The tongue controls the bending. My suggestion of pinning to the bottom of the teeth is a great starting point in teaching one how to use the tongue properly.
Once you get your positioning correct by "aiming" that lump in your tongue to your target sweet spots, the front of the tongue doesn't have to be touching the bottom teeth.
As a matter of fact, in TB bending, the tip of the tongue rests on the harmonica while the area further back curves its "hump" up.
Best not to try to go in too many different directions with too many teachers in your path to learning to master this technique.
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The Iceman
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WinslowYerxa
271 posts
Mar 05, 2013
10:59 AM
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@Jayrich -
You DO use the tongue for bending. But not by obstructing the hole in the harmonica. This produces poor-sounding bends that are hard to control.
I was referring to the teeth at the front of the mouth. I think Larry (Iceman) is referring to the teeth at the side of the mouth.
When you bend, you tune your mouth to a note by changing its size. To do this you create a narrowing of the airflow by raising part of your tongue to the roof of your mouth, similar to what you do when you make the sound of K.
If you say K, you touch the tongue to the roof of your mouth to momentarily block airflow. But if you use that same K-spot to narrow the airflow instead of blocking it, you'll activate a bend. Which bend depends on the volume of your mouth from the K-spot forward to the front of your mouth - a smaller volume bends higher notes, a larger volume bends lower notes.
You can change the volume of your mouth's oral cavity in two ways:
-- sliding the K-spot forward or back in your mouth
-- raising or lowering the "floor" of the cavity by raising or lowering your tongue between the K-spot and the front of your mouth.
I'm convinced that so-called throat bending is actually tongue bending, just activated farther back along the tongue.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Mar 05, 2013 12:48 PM
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FMWoodeye
587 posts
Mar 05, 2013
12:30 PM
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It's like learning to throw a baseball. Trying to learn the mechanics via language is a difficult but necessary step, plant your foot, shift your weight, arm slot, release point; but once you FEEL it, you can reproduce and refine it, and then you'll own it and all the nuances, throwing sidearm, overhand, off-balance, whatever. Bending was difficult for me to learn. I once filed and flattened a 2-hole blow reed to get the note because I couldn't bend the 2 down a full step. That's right. I said it. Now I can bend like a pretzel.
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The Iceman
780 posts
Mar 05, 2013
4:12 PM
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Winslow...
I tell the student "Pretend that the tip of your tongue is super glued to the area where your lower front teeth and gums meet".
I've never mentioned teeth at the side of the mouth...
You call it sliding the "K" spot forward and back. I divide the roof of the mouth into specific focus points of "T", "D", "Rrrr", "K", "Guh" and "Cha" to help fine tune the student's awareness and give them a target to consistently aim towards.
Both explanations work.
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The Iceman
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timeistight
1148 posts
Mar 05, 2013
4:23 PM
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"I tell the student 'Pretend that the tip of your tongue is super glued to the area where your lower front teeth and gums meet'."
Does that apply to tongue-blockers, too?
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Playing music... it's a privilege.
Kim Wilson
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The Iceman
781 posts
Mar 05, 2013
4:50 PM
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timeistight:
This occurs early on for the student...before we venture into TB technique.
Once the student (w/"tongue super glued") understands how to create and control bends with the tongue, there is no reason to keep the tip of the tongue "stuck there".
It is not much of a stretch to have the student put the tip of the tongue on the harmonica now for TB and also have the ability to bend right away.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Mar 05, 2013 4:50 PM
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1847
583 posts
Mar 05, 2013
10:04 PM
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the iceman is giving away the keys to the cadillac
if only he had a tipjar link in his signature
i would throw down with a buck.
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tipjar
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jayrich
9 posts
Mar 06, 2013
1:50 AM
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Yep, Iceman, Winslow...and all others...am soo grateful for your truly GENEROUS input...and attempts to describe something that you obviously know how to do but is incredibly difficult to put into words!!
I think I know what i need to work on..and will keep you guys posted! (once my cold/sore throat clears..and i can play again...this cold had to come along just as i got all the critical info?!)
Thanks again guys
Jay
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