You know this kind of discussion is so pointless...just a load of people giving their opinions on someone who could outplay 95% of this forum's population. If you really want to know if this is good or bad music then you need to listen to the audience. They all sound like they are enjoying it! Apart from that one guy shouting " Hey Popper you asshole you're playing 7 draw and 3 draw on a B minor 7 chord"
I think both his and L.D's playing is superb...if only I could play half as good I'd be a happy man.
Just to say, for someone who is supposed to be one of the best in the world...well, apart from some thread about Popper seen around here during the past month, i never had heard of him. Yeah, really. Don't throw stone at me yet, there's worth.'cause honnestly, i am not that impressed by what he does and i surely was NOT blown away by that video. Playing fast sudenly when the band is doing the same things... Where is the music ?
Then again, i also tend to forget that the world really is just about north america for most of the people here and being a denizen of the old continent, i don't feel very included in those sort of statements. Which is weird with so many person from so many country checking the forum. Even more so when i log in and see a topic about Nico Wayne Toussaint and most of you haven't heard of him since he has been around for a very long time too.
Anyway, having such heated arguments over the same dudes over and over again... well, seems a little self-centered and almost as arrogant as Popper saying he is one of the best in the world.
Anyway, just to say that this world of yours that consist just of eskilled players fels so small. Where is the Music in all of that ?
@Kaining: If you'd like to broaden our minds and engage us in a discussion of Nico Wayne Toussaint, by all means do that. I responded to somebody posting a video of him in another thread by saying "Tell me more." I don't think it's constructive, though, to brag about never having heard of John Popper. Harmonica players, blues and otherwise, have been chattering about him on forums like these for the past 20 years. You're not required to like him, of course. But he's part of the general conversation. That's what we do here: we talk about Popper, Ricci, whomever, until we're blue in the face.
As for the forum being North-American-centric: I'm sure you're right that it trends that way. And there's a good reason for that: this forum is dedicated to blues harmonica. Although the blues has, over the past fifty years, become a world music of sorts--and I'm happy about that--the foundational figures of blues harmonica, the ones who established the tradition, are pretty much all from the USA, and I'd bet that 90-95% of them, pre-1965, are African American. I happen to feel that the blues (and blues harmonica) is perhaps America's greatest gift to the world--something that American citizens of conscience can take unadulterated pride in. I'm not quite as proud of being the country that gave the world Coke, cruise missles, and McDonald's. But there's simply no question that blues music was born and raised in America, historically speaking--although it has most definitely, taken root in many other places. (In my Blues Talk series, for example, I'm going to talk about the Malaysian blues scene next week.)
Still, for all that, the word "modern" in the URL of this website opens the door to all sorts of contemporary (and non-North-American) players who have extended, modernized, and broadened the tradition, and you're absolutely right that we should be interested in them and chattering about them. I'd like to know more about Toussaint. I was familiar with four or five other significant contemporary French players, but somehow I'd missed him, and I WOULD indeed like to know more.
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2013 4:36 AM
Thanks for the response Adam. I didn't expect you to see feel that strong about it. I am no expert on NWT but i'll try to post some more on the thread about him. Since you do have make it clear that you are interested.
Anyway, as for what you said...well, it's not exactly bragging when i say didn't know Popper until recently and the first time i have heard of him was here. Even though he have been around for 20 years. Because i ain't that proud about it. I am not accusing anybody of blasphemy either for not knowing NWT even though he also has been playing for the past 20 years.
It's was more about making a point about how much we all talk about the same guys again and again. Who all happens to be in the american scene but to be honest it could have been the deutsch scene, the fact is it's just one country and yet, there people from all around the world here. I understand that it is normal to speak about american players when it come to blues and harps from before the 80's since there wasn't that many blues legend elsewhere, after that no so much.
And yet, there many, many more players around that are as good as those we focus our attention on and that we tend to ignore. One thread per video of the same guys one thread about the whole works of others. Further more, not necesseraly their best works are getting some light on those threads.
I didn't know about Popper. You didn't know about NWT. The big question is : Whom else are we missing ?
Are there some legend we should know about in China ? What about i don't know...Zanzibar ? As for you making a blues talk about the Malesian blues scene, i can't wait to hear it. I don't know nothing about it and i'd like to know more.
Because i am sure that those we don't know are probably doing something we should ear and get used to. And talk a lot more about it ans ask ourselves the good question about their music.
@ Oisin:
Let's not talk about the 5% of messages that are usefull for a moment but on the other 95%. What you said is half right. It is a kind of discussion with 95% of useless opinions but they are useless only because we read them on a daily basis without trying to make something meaningful out of them. Furthermore, it's not because someone can outplay another that he MUST have a better view on music in general. I happenned to stumble across a 1996 paper of an economist saying "successfull businessman aren't the best advisor when it comes to economy policies" and explaining why. It's not blues but the process is the same. It's not because some guys is successfull at doing something that he is good at everything that relate to it. The way he have to think about a particular field may not be apropriate in another that's related.
It's just a different aproach and those 95% of opinions are useless but as valid.
Let's just take this whole discussion about the 7 and 3 draw on a B minor chord. That's an interesting thread with a lot of differents opinions but...i can't help to ask myself what did i learned about that ?
Does Popper knows why what he is doing works or not ? If not, too bad for him good for those that do know. But if he does, why is he doing that ? Lot's of people here, me included*, and on the audience don't care that much about it because it doesn't pierce our eardrums. Why is that ? Haven't we gotten used to those notes in that particular set-up (blues music) ? Then, is it okay to use those note in blues ? If yes, is it ok elsewhere ? Maybe, maybe not. But if it is yes indeed, how do they work/sound good in the wrong context ?
*IM(useless)O i don' care about those 2 notes but i am not thrilled about them either. The whole video just felt bland to me. Not bad, just not good. The second one with the violonist on the other hand did works better for me. I know why i felt that way but that post is getting waaaay too long.
What I think is going on is he knows what he is playing but doesn't always care. There is ample recorded evidence that he can follow chord changes that aren't diatonic, can play modally, and can play melodically.
In fact, I would argue that he has a fantastic ear. If you check out any of him sitting in with random bands - no famous bands, but whoever is playing the pub - he often quotes the melody of a song on the fly.
I think with Blues Traveler, and I'll cite some of his Duskray Troubadour interviews, he feels his roll is the frantic rockstar solo. The focus is much more on passing notes and patterns to play really fast. He has been known to switch harps in songs - The Mountains Win Again, for example.
While it isn't something I always appreciate, I've always looked at it like jazz stuff. Some changes are fast enough that "out" notes lead into other chords, or you make a chromatic run when getting somewhere.
While I don't consider him a great blues player, I think he also picks and chooses whether to play blues or other stuff. A lot of the stuff he did on the Blues Brothers 2000 soundtrack is pretty cool. Some of the Christmas stuff he did with Clapton and B.B. King is pretty cool and bluesy too...not over the top. By contrast, the posts with Jimmie Vaughn were hit or miss as was, IMO, some of the stuff with Johnny Winter in regards to sounding real "in" for blues. Generally, he attacks it like a non-blues playing guitar player, etc. By this I mean Mixolydian scales that are basically diatonic to one key.
While not playing a lot of typical low end of the harp stuff, there are examples of his mastery of bends like the song the Good the Bad and the Ugly. He also uses chords and octaves more effectively, IMO, than any other harmonica player. His tone when he is doing that is fantastic. His playing, on the bottom, tends to be really Hendrixy based on his explanation here:
Accepting or not accepting major over minor chord is actually our habits. It have nothing with quality.
I'd even say that bass line A B C C# | D ... is common bass line for minor jazz swing over cord changes Am | Dm | Try it, it works for jazz.
Yes in general most popular musicians for current moment don't use major 3-rd over minor chord. So most people don't have havit to accept is like good. But if this note is inside fast run or make a nice tension or special dissonance why not. And finally it's live it can be a mistake, which John will prefer to avoid in studio. Every player even greatest regularly make mistakes.
I didn't listen to notes in this video, I listened to energy and music and only thing I feel a bit negative was overeffected LD's tone. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
To respond to your question after viewing the video: JP is a highly skilled player and a good singer/songwriter in his genre of rock with a blues influence. His playing style suits his own music.
In my opinion his playing style on this classic LW song clashes with the groove and does not serve the song well. Johnny Winter played this song in a version that was his own, but still carried a blues vibe.
JP's style of interposing multiple notes that sputter out as he moves from idea to idea is one that I have heard from other modern players, and for me it just doesn't quite work for the groove in a slow blues.
I am not a strong traditionalist and I interpret blues and other songs in my own way, but the approach of using cascades of notes unrelated to the groove in a slow blues fails to support the emotional content of the song.
I haven't been a big Popper fan but I loved this. Seemed perfect for the song,considering who he is playing with. Excellent job weaving with the vocals. I thought he put his signature on it while giving proper respect to both Walter and Johnny. Even the runs were different,more refined somehow. He put emphasis on certain notes in the right place and the right time. Sounds like mighty fine modern blues to me.
Last Edited by Lmbrjak on Jan 08, 2015 3:20 PM
i suspect it will change few minds... partially because we are so set in our tastes around here that it is unlikely. either you are a popper fan or you are not.
also, Popper tends to take the major choice, and blues people are accustomed to minor over major, even in a major tune, when major is ok..
popper really rips up the bends on the upper end, and as adam has mentioned previously, is not as strong on the lower end bends, and this is also something that blues harp players put a premium on.
i like it, but i like popper.. but it is not as good as when popper plays popper.
After reading other comments I listened to the video again to double check my thoughts. JP shows great ability throughout, and as we all know he has a recognizable sound.
In terms of effectiveness as a blues player on this song I didn't care for his intro, I liked most of his responses around vocals, I enjoyed his first 8 bars of solo. I thought it was a good inventive approach, really working some notes for effect. Then he went to his JP style high end lightening riffs and lost me as far as blues performance. Some of the last 4 bars of the solo were pretty good, too. I like blues that makes a strong statement musically, and the extra notes (for me) detract from the statement.
I am evaluating this on my view of what a blues performance is, not on his obvious skills. To me, it just seems like too much high end noodling for a slow blues song like this.
Obviously opinions will vary, and I expect that modern players who love this style (and maybe have incorporated this approach into their own style) will not see anything wrong with his playing this style on this classic slow blues song. ----------
I think that if you play a cover from Little Walter, of course you can put your own signature on it. But for me there has to be something I can recognize from the original. I think JP sounds like shit on "Last Night". It's just noodling. Advanced noodling. I think JP should change his statement to: "I'm probably one of the worlds best noodlers". But then again, I'm one of these boring white guys trying to sound like a dead black guy ;)
@ Adam (look back ~2 yrs) - I used to meet guys on the street in Harlem who would say, "I COULD play the harmonica, if I ever put my mind to it."
Aren't those usually the guys who ask to play your harmonica?
Concerning John Popper's claim to be, "arguably one of the best in the world," I think he is spot on. Let the arguments begin. I did not get the impression he plans to participate in the arguments or that he puts himself above any others. Consider his willingness to share the stage with another harp player. His level of success and volume of work is a pretty strong argument.
In 10,000 years, when archeologists are excavating landfills, they will be digging up a hell of a lot of John Popper from the late 20th and early 21st centuries. I wonder how many of them will be saying, "that 7 draw doesn't really work there"?.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Jan 10, 2015 9:53 AM
@Thievin' Heathen I would like to be sure that I clearly understand your point.
My question to you is not regarding John Popper's skill and musical ability. To me, these are clearly at a very high level, perhaps "arguably one of the best in the world." (even though I am wary of "best" labels...)
My question is, does his using this approach to the slow blues song, "Last Night," succeed in demonstrating his high level at playing BLUES (as opposed to just demonstrating his skill playing harmonica)?
The difference first occurred to me when I heard a recording of John Popper playing "She Caught the Katy" with Taj Mahal live. John demonstrated his ample skill (actually I like his version of "Katy" better than his rendition of "Last Night"), but the song did not seem as solid a BLUES performance as Taj's album version when Taj played harmonica. Taj played harp very well on his version, but not in a demonstration of chops anywhere near John Popper's level of performance. But I found Taj's version more satisfying as a blues song.
It is clear that you like JP, and I enjoy his work as well, but do you believe that his approach to the slow blues "Last Night" shows a high level of BLUES performance that would raise someone's estimation of JP as a blues player? ----------
Well, I read most of the 2013 part of this thread and from there is where my comments were mostly influenced. That makes my reply a little out of date.
I will forever be listening for James Cotton's harmonica when I hear Johnny Winter, so in that light, it would be unfare to gauge anyone else's playing. All I could say is, "it sounds pretty good, but it's not James Cotton". I have not bought the CD yet, but I imagine Jason Ricci's work with Johnny Winter will cure me.
To answer your question, no. It is a LW song played with JP's reinvention of how to play harmonica rather than, and better than, a bad imitation of LW, but it does not really work for me. I think I would rather hear Johnny Winter playing Blues Traveler than John Popper playing Little Walter.
