That's exactly what I'm doing as I'd like to do some work on my own harps but needed something for comparison. There are a lot of choices but for me being in Canada I chose a Canadian who's not too far from me. Cuts down on the border red tape. My customizer is well known on this forum as: User: arzajac Website: http://harp.andrewzajac.ca I've spoken to Andrew on the phone and he's a great guy who wants to sell a well made product that suits me and my playing style best. This is my first custom purchase so I'm really looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.
The Crossover is a phenomenal harmonica and an excellent for comparisons...
I guess one way to do it would have to new crossover harmonicas that played relatively the same out of the box...Send one to Joe and then compare them once you get it back and try to view the differences, I'm sure the difference in how it played would be instantly noticeable?
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 10:15 AM
Jim, that is the reason of the thread, for comparison with a custom from a Master to try and study what they did.
Kingley...pretty doggone close...My crossovers are newish, so they seem better for that very reason. The tweaks I've done are to old used up harps so, though I got then sounding damn good they don't have that new harmonica feel to them that always feels so good.
Frank - I'd say you're definitely on the right track.
I'd get a Spiers harp to study and try to get close to that. I suspect it'll take your own work to a new higher level. Joe is as you know one of the top three customisers in the world, alongside Joe Filisko and Richard Sleigh. I'd also suggest talking to Joe when you order one and let him know that you want to use it as a benchmark for working on your own harps. You never know, he may impart some pearls of wisdom your way.
I'd also take Jim up on his kind offer. Different customisers have different ways of working. The more you know and learn the better you're own work will become.
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 11:50 AM
I bought a Stage One from Ron and gave it a look-- Very interesting what our friend in Missouri is doing with the lowly SP20 . . . Joe Spiers gets my vote. PS It's a G, but really bright now!
Russia...that's far, and I agree - his offer was generous, thanks Jim!
I once asked Kinya Pollard if he could reveal any of Joe Filiskos "secret secrets" you know the kind that get you killed if revealed, he wouldn't cuff em up :(
I would suggest consulting someone for lessons. Unless you know what your looking for, examining someone else's work doesn't get you much further than what is already on the net for free.
It does, though, give you something to compare to. I just wouldn't count on understanding too much about why it plays the way it does. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
A couple of years ago, or maybe less, there was a lot of talk about reverse engineering a couple of customizers harps. Some of it was so that you could learn more about it and improve your own harps, that is, to me, somewhat acceptable. However some of them were to perhaps steal ideas, or as it turned out to cut down and belittle certain customizers' work. If you were involved, you know who you are.
At least one of these people are still banned from the forum, to the best of my knowledge.
I know when I started, I went to SPAH, and attended every seminar available, especially the ones given by Joe Filisko, and Rick Epping. I leaarned a lot, and I am sure that my questions got on their nerves, but they answered them, and I think we all learned. Joe Filisko went as far as calling me his Interogator
During the same SPAH convention I got to know Jimmy Gordon (We Shared Dinner and a bottle of Cognac, and played a little music, and I asked if I could buy three of his harps. He asked me why I wanted them (He had heard me play) and I told him I wanted to work on mine, and I needed a benchmark to shoot for. He said that was acceptable, and I bought three of them for $75 each. That was in 1999. When I got them, about 4 months later, there was a note from Jimmy about not playing them too hard and breaking the reeds. So, I played them gently, and they blew me away. I was scared to ever go out and do a gig with them because I knew I would blow them up. So, I researched on line, ant read every post on Harp-l, bought Rupery Oyslers DVD, and emailed different builders, and eventually learned how to do it. Like all of us, the more I did, the more I learned. It is always a work in progress, because I pick up little bits an pieces all the time.
If you bought a Joe Spiers Harp, and took it apart, and compared it to an identical Stock harp, you would still not know the answer. I have tried to teach numerous players, here in New Orleans, how to customize harmonicas, but with one exception, no one has had the desire and the ability and the patience to do it.
The information is out there. Go get it, and learn the same way the rest of us did . If you take a short cut, not only will you miss out on all the mistakes that got us to where we are today and the knowledge that we gained, but you will wind up making those same mistakes all over again.
I cannot think of any good customizer out there today that did not start at the beginning, which is why we all use different methods and tools to achieve our goals, and all the harps are great in their own special way
I wised up to tweakin harps and changing reeds ( for my own sanity and pocket book ) within the first year I got serious with actually learning how to play them some 15 years ago- Patience and not giving up = success no doubt...I'm one of those guys that has every friggin part from every harmonica ever purchased...I learned quickly the harmonica was not a throw away purchase and have done the homework over the years and tons of hands on work too, to keep myself well stocked with fine playable harps. It has always confounded me how many players could careless about having the ability to maintain and service their harps themselves. Recently I have been paying closer attention to getting my harps to play even better and since I have years of experience, the new info is pretty easy to digest and put to good use for my harps - I don't fix or tweak for others, just to keep my head above water and happy with the performance of my harps.
I still think this would be an interesting experiment.. Get two new crossover harmonicas that played relatively the same out of the box...Send one to Joe and then compare them once you get it back and try to view the differences, I'm sure the difference in how it played would be instantly noticeable?
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 3:05 PM
I would try one who isn't on MBH and didn't see you ask about whose harmonica would be best to get and reverse engineer.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
I posted the third message in this thread indicating I was purchasing a custom harmonica for comparison purposes. Could have been a bit clearer based on the direction the thread has gone. Here it is. The custom harp is being purchased to hear and play the potential a brand/type of harp is built with but not maximized by the manufacturer. My thought was it would be a challenge to optimize a harp without knowing the values an optimized harp has. The purchase isn't intended to reverse engineer the work done by the customizer. I don't think that's even possible for me without some very good measuring equipment.
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 3:18 PM
I found a deal on Ebay a few years back, 50's and early 60's NOS Marine Bands, all popular keys. So I bought 2 each of 6 common keys. I sent one set of 6 off to a customizer for some light work, inexpensive. I then compared the stockers to the customs. I was so pleased with the customs, I bought 4 more vintage NOS MBs in flat keys and 4 new ones in minor keys. All are great players. One of these days I'll try my hand on the stock ones. BTW: The pre-war MBs had the best response and tone, the new ones sound terrific and were the easiest to work on. Apparently the new MBs are a big improvement over the late 60's to present pre- retooled harps.
I think Dave was maybe just stating that perhaps a customiser who knew a particular Harp was going to be discussed to great length on MBH 'might' just give it a little extra tweaking...?
It's no skin off my nose if anyone wants to examine my work. At least 5 of my last RR SP20's went to other customizers.....What they'll see is that I do too much work for the $$. Reverse engineering doesn't work well IME. We're dealing with airflow control, sound waves and the physical properties of metal. *edit to add*-- And trying to make them all work together, as best as we understand at the time of the build.
ZP calibration and a flat profile is not the "holy grail" all by itself. Reeds don't swing like they're on hinges. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 5:59 PM
I have a custom from Chris Michalek and Mike Fugazzi. Both are great and were very reasonable price.
I gotta beat myself up, I've read all the sources online, been shown stuff from a bunch of different and top customizers, got Richard Sleigh's great book, and put together all sorts of tools and such. Aside from some tweaking and dabbling here and there I just haven't started to put down the blood, sweat, and tears.
I have customs from 3 different suppliers. All of them play much better than even the best stock I've ever encountered. They also all play/sound a little differently. I don't think you'll discover a whole lot when you open them up. (I haven't opened any of them yet,except for one I had to gap). I think it's more about craftsmanship(and maybe black art) and you're not going to see a lot of physical evidence. Harvey stated it perfectly-there's nothing like experience and learning from your mistakes.
If you're really serious about learning,Richard Sleigh has a harp technician hands on course. I'm thinking about scheduling one in the Spring. He's only 2 hours away!
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 7:16 PM
For me the purpose of owning a pro level custom harp would be to use it as a benchmark against my own self customised harps.
Jim - Sorry. I had Bulgaria in my mind as well and couldn't remember which it was. Are you Russian originally? Or is that Boris Plotnikov? Is Boris also based in Bulgaria?
To clarify: I know some up and coming customizers who came up before I did and purchased harmonicas from a certain person or persons, got it and it was total P.O.S. Joe wouldn't do anything like that, nor would I, but I can't speak for everyone. I've been contacted by a lot of people over the years, asking questions, just for natural curiosity or whatever, but I know what's really going on. It's easy to tell who is who. I still try to answer the questions, even though I know there's this hidden intent. It would be better for me, certainly, if nothing were known. But I still try to be as helpful as I can, for one simple reason, people helped me once and I'm paying it forward. Then, later on, those same folks are advertising customs they're selling, but I knew it all along and did it anyway.
Superbee, I would think that I've been giving out too much help and info for too long in public forums like this one for you to make a comment like that, although I understand it's possible I read it differently than you wrote it - as you apparently did with mine.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
There are certain things I do keep to myself, mostly because I promised one person or another I would, and most of those things can't be seen by the average eye, but the stuff you can see I try to open about. There was a time I wasn't building customs, but was very interested in harmonicas. I was just doing stuff for myself and had no intention of doing anything else. One customizer (he's not building anymore) was very helpful to me in the earliest days. Then, later on, Rupert Oysler talked me into starting to build customs. The helpful customizer from earlier was pretty rude to me and addressed me publicly with all these hidden "you are a dumbass" undertones.
The techs who were so helpful to me (Joe Spiers probably doesn't know it, but he's in that group)like Rupert Oysler early on... and the two biggest influences and helps Brad Harrison and Wally Peterman. I constantly sing praises of them and their precious help to me, but I never, ever talk about that other guy.I try to keep that in mind when the shoe is on the other foot.
When I was a kid, my grandfather taught me two different ways to skin squirrels. They were two vastly different methods of squirrel skinning, but in the end, the squirrel is skinned just the same. It is the same with catfish. Likewise, there are a million things you can do to a harmonica, a half million are somewhere out there on the internet. About 50 of them actually work and you won't use them all. If you understand airflow and the fact that a reed is a spring, you'll be in good shape to start.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
I doubt you misread my post David. I absolutely thought you were saying that a person seeking to buy a harp from you for the purpose of examining your work should not bother. I hadn't considered the possibility you were warning against someone deliberately providing something intended to mislead. That just looked to be the tone of your statement. I gather I misunderstood. Your implied assumption that your spirit of generosity is well known enough that I should have known better...maybe, but clearly I didn't, so you know...that thing people say about assumptions Personally I see you as a somewhat- prickly character, but we don't know each other so that's perhaps my assumption which I should revise... ----------
Thanks Bee. I can see why you perceive me as prickly and I can also see how you read my post that way because I was unclear. After I semi-retired, I got prickly on Jim once and prickly again on Harvey, both those had been building up for a long time and when I did that I got the prickliness out of my system and feel my prick days are behind me and there is nothing but rainbows and unicorns ahead ;) ---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
I'm pretty sure that I could study the finest custom harmonica ever built and never have the time, patience or resources to duplicate it. For me the idea seems kind of silly because I know me. My music, family and life are important to me and I'll never be willing to trade them for a good harmonica. I don't know how many times I've read posts from customizers on the various forums stating that they aren't taking orders for awhile because the lives are suffering. Having said that I'd like to become much better at gapping and...now that David has shown me the way to the promised land of the 6 overblow I really want that note to be found easily on EVERY harp that I play! All the best on your journey, Jay ---------- Music speaks where words fail.
I don't want to copy Joe, but I am certain he does things to his harmonicas that I would like to do to mine and am not currently. So yeah, I would emulate Joe and his methods, if I knew what they were. Same deal with Dave. I'm not trying to beat anybody out of any business, that's for sure. Let me go on record as saying that Dave has taught me a lot about harmonicas without us ever meeting in person, just thru his posts (and the occasional phone call). Thanks David!
J Spiers harps are the only customs I've ever purchased...and honestly they did help me open doors in playing ob od notes. As well as start a fire within to customize my own.....its only human not to want to go back to the same old same old when you play a great instrument.....like getting out of a corvette back to smart car...i know just on this blog alone there are some guys doing great work.......I'm just thankful for anyone who is gracious enough to share insights......it seems this share of info if anything has gotten the big guys attention ....re; crossovers, manjis , sub 30's etc......we're light years ahead from just a few years ago
http://youtu.be/g0x9cBBsW6I
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2013 8:07 PM
FWIW, out of curiosity, I looked at at one of Joe's stage III's under a microscope.. literally, and it is not obvious what makes it play so well or how it got that way.. but if you want something to compare to and get the basic general ideas from (e.g. how tightly embossed, reed profiles) it would work
I have also looked very closely at some other customs.. Chris's had more obvious modifications, but he also maintained and it has been backed up by some who learned directly from him that a good bit of what he did to harps could not be reverse engineered.
I also appreciate the information that is shared on the internet by the customizers who do take a few minutes to post. Dave always has an interesting slant on things
I contacted Chris Michalek and ordered some tools + lessons of how to use those tools. I also ordered a fully customized C harp from him. We then had few skype video lessons and lots of skype chat around the topics.
I think it was a great package and worth while to do. A also ordered some books and tools from Richard Sleight + had some email exchanges. I have improved all of my own harps but I'm not planning to do any business with these skills. The only thing I did is that I arranged some harp tweaking workshops to get back the money I invested to the learning.
I suggest that if possible, you try to make same kind of arrangement with some customizer. I don't know who does that but ask around.
However, I have to say that customizing is so time consuming that nowadays I rather pay somebody else to do it, if possible. But I still do my own harps as it is more convenient and quicker to get them ready to play...
Not quite custom harp. I bought Suzuki Overdrive for overbend study. it's purely "study" harmonica. You can't play on it.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2013 3:34 AM
I find skinning a squirrel a neat little affair. It's like pulling off a little fur suit and cutting off the parts you don't need all in one pull...
The city squirrels around here are so big and fat... I have been so tempted to stew a few up...
David, I met Wally and was so impressed with the chord harmonicas he built himself. He was very interested in the work I had done to my harps that I never thought to ask him about his (duh). My fault for not paying attention. I guess I was having too much fun playing with him.
---------- Danny
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2013 10:58 PM
