Delta Dirt
9 posts
Oct 27, 2009
2:29 PM
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I have a Sears Silvertone 1481 and a Kalamazoo One.Two good sounding harp amps. My question is... is it worth it to put a lineout on these small amps? Will i lose good tone along the way? Or should i just save up for something larger? I play small clubs but they are still 5-7 watt amps.
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MrVerylongusername
581 posts
Oct 27, 2009
4:21 PM
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A line out is going to bypass the speaker which is a big part of the tone. If miking the amp isn't working for you, I'd save up for something with more poke.
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harpwrench
111 posts
Oct 27, 2009
4:38 PM
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You can do a voltage divider line-out, taking the signal from the speaker leads. That's what I did on mine and it sounds great! Doesn't cost much to try!
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Tuckster
246 posts
Oct 27, 2009
5:59 PM
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What wattage are the resistors? How much do you tap? 1/10?
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harpwrench
112 posts
Oct 27, 2009
6:15 PM
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2.2k ohm 1/2 watt from the positive lead
ground to ground
100 ohm 1/2 watt across the leads
I got it from Gerald Weber's book. I was able to enclose all of it within a barrel-type 1/4" phone plug.
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KingoBad
119 posts
Oct 27, 2009
8:36 PM
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I am copying this from Greg Heumann's site www.blowsmeaway.com about a line out for the kalamazoo:
"Kalamazoos have great tone, and amazing volume for their size, but no 8W amp is going to win volume wars at a loud jam. The line-out is a high impedance signal accesible via a 1/4" jack, and the output is equivalent to that of a good microphone, so you can connect the amp to the house sound system (via high-Z input or DI Box) or another amp. This is no sterile-sounding pre-amp line-out. The signal is derived from the speaker side of the output transformer, so all the great Kalamazoo tone gets amplified. It really works! The Kalamazoo becomes an on-stage monitor but can be heard by hundreds, even thousands. A line-out is the optimal way to connect one amp to another. Using a "Y cable, "A/B/Y Box" or other cable splitter will cut the input impedance in half, doubling the load on your mic and altering its tone. The line out does not lower the input impedance at all. Cool, eh? (Thanks to Gary Onofrio, aka Sonny Jr. for his assistance in developing this circuit.)"
Last Edited by on Oct 27, 2009 8:37 PM
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Greg Heumann
151 posts
Oct 27, 2009
9:53 PM
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Thanks, Kingo -
I would add that every sound guy I've worked with likes the line out better than mic'ing because there is ONLY amp signal coming to the board - no other sounds (floor noise, adjacent amp noise, etc).
The caveat - this won't make your Kalamazoo into a Super Reverb either. There is a limit to how loud you can get without feedback as the additional amplification adds gain. You really need a good sound guy on the board to make this work well for a big room. Alternately, simply playing it into a big amp gives THAT amp great tone.....
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
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bluesnut
108 posts
Oct 28, 2009
12:54 AM
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I have a SJ410 with no line out. I was thinking of getting an pignose 7-100 just for the small stages and playing though the pa system. That should work for the sound gut since it is also a pre amp. I thought playing just through the pa system was bad but I have been told my tone was good that way too. They say you have to get good accoustic tone first.
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kudzurunner
750 posts
Oct 28, 2009
4:06 AM
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As far as I'm concerned, line outs are a mediocre compromise--and they ARE a compromise. An overdriven speaker is, or should be, part of the harp sound you're working with. The truly rich, nasty amped harp sounds come partly from an overdriven speaker coil and flapping (or slightly buzzing) paper cone. A line out loses that part of the sound, all of it. You'll still get the other two-thirds (overdriven preamp and power amp) but you'll lose that part.
If you close mic the amp the right way, with a cardiod pattern mic that rejects sound coming from the back and much of the side, you won't have significant noise coming from adjacent amps. As for floor noise: I happen to think that a few thumps here and there are an integral part of live blues.
Many sound guys want total control rather than optimal sound--or rather, they think total control IS optimal sound. Total control from a sound man's perspective is about total separation isolation of each input. That's a studio perspective; it's more valid in the studio than on a live stage. Sound guys want total separation and isolation so that they can erase you if and when they want to--you, the loud and annoying harp player. They also want to be able to reduce feedback, should it occur, without reducing the volume of other instruments. All these goals make sense, from a sound man's perspective, but they're not conducive to optimal live harp sound.
Line outs work well for bass--if you're looking for a clean sound; blues bassists sometimes want distortion, too--and for keyboards. They work best when the player is working with a clean sound. If a harp player is working with a clean sound, a line out is fine. If distortion of any kind is part of your sound and you're looking to optimize, avoid line outs.
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2009 4:13 AM
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sopwithcamels266
220 posts
Oct 28, 2009
4:23 AM
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DeltDirt:Well I am no expert in this deparment.
All I know is that if you try out the line out thing for your self it should give you the answer your looking for.
I play harp my self sometimes but when ever I've been in a band where I'm doing sax work and there is a far better harp player than me, they always mike their amp or don't bother and just use amp if say in small place.
For me the golden rule is simply if your all going through PA then you all need monitors ear or wedge.If the the back line including all rhythm are using PA for a little extra blend only, in small venue then they have to be I'd say 40to 50% under front line, ie harps horns voice if you have NO monitors.
Crucial, otherwise in the first number everyone knows what will happen,volume volcano starting at the back and working out.
Iv'e never played with a harp player that used line out.Also I think when kudzurunner says avoid line outs I would do it.
When it comes to playing modern blues harp in the modern era I sincerely believe it dosen't get much better than Kudzurunner.
I may be wrong but I'm guessing that your question was sparked through not hearing yourself on the band stand.
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2009 4:36 AM
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MrVerylongusername
583 posts
Oct 28, 2009
7:57 AM
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Couldn't agree more Adam.
As someone who has spent a fair bit of time on the other side of the mixing desk, you're spot on about the control freak mentality. Add a surprisingly common anti-harp attitude ("Oh they're a feedback nightmare", "I'll mix it well back") and you end up compromising - unless you stand your ground.
The soundman is not there to tell you how to sound. It is your sound, you set your amp the way you want. His job is to make sure the audience hears YOUR sound, balanced to the acoustics of the room and the dynamics of the band.
I've recently had some very positive experiences with an amp modelling pedal. This not only digital replicates the amp tone, but it also replicates the sound of different speakers and has can emulate different ways of miking the cabinet. I'd rather use a digital impersonation of a close miked amp than a line out which has lost the sound of the speaker.
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Kingley
477 posts
Oct 28, 2009
9:11 AM
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One thing that I hear quite often is micing up the amp by placing a mic at the back of the speakers rather than the front.
Supposedly Piazza did (does) this quite often. Are their any foreseeable pros or cons to doing this over micing the amp up from the front as most people do?
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2009 9:12 AM
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MrVerylongusername
584 posts
Oct 28, 2009
9:34 AM
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Different tonal quality of sound coming out the back - it's very common to mic both and blend the two. In recording situations a third ambient room mic can be added too.
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Bluzdude46
242 posts
Oct 28, 2009
11:50 AM
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I'm with the mic the speaker crowd. why else would people be picky about the size, make and quality of a speaker in an amp if not to complete the sound? Also wether known or not. Speakers have a break in period. about 40-50 hours into use speakers begin to have a true break point and sound SWEET!!
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isaacullah
423 posts
Oct 28, 2009
12:53 PM
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Has anyone ever hardwired a microphone inside a speaker cabinet? I mean like mount a mic INSIDE the cabinet, pointed at the optimal part of the back of the speaker cone, and then just wire this to a 1/4" or xlr out jack in the back of the cabinet? Seems to me like that would be easier and less potentially damaging than trying to correctly wire up a voltage divider network to the speaker output, and would still give you that speaker distortion tone that Adam talks about...
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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Bluzdude46
243 posts
Oct 28, 2009
1:13 PM
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Actually I did see an experiment like that only with a Pick-up type gadget on the front of the speaker that covered the center (not sure what it's called). I think it never caught on because it was pretty tough to make it fairly secure
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2009 1:14 PM
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MrVerylongusername
585 posts
Oct 28, 2009
1:27 PM
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I have a vague recollection of reading about someone doing that. Seems a bit pointless to me, after all, once it's fixed it is not moveable. Minute changes to the angle of the mic to the speaker can alter the tone, the position of the mic relative to the radius of the cone affects the tone. In sound reinforcement, flexibility is key - each room has different acoustics and will accentuate a different set of frequencies. By attaching the mic to the cabinet, the cabinet becomes "live" - vibrations will be transmitted from the cab to the mic. Finally don't forget that different mics have different properties - being tied to one fixed mic stops you having options regarding pickup pattern (i.e. noise and feedback rejection) and frequency response.
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isaacullah
425 posts
Oct 28, 2009
2:55 PM
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Yeah, I suppose that if you're going to mic an amp, you might as well just mic the amp.... You're right, it does not seem like it's worth the trouble to mount a mic inside the cab... It was just a thought...
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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Delta Dirt
10 posts
Oct 28, 2009
4:05 PM
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Wow ....around the world in 24 hours..lol...thanks guys. My Bassman got stolen is the reason im such a rookie at line outs and mics. I had a horrible experience the other night at a really nice club trying to mic my amp. I squealed half the crowd out the door before i started playing vocal mic. Just need more practice and experimenting. Botiques amps are a little expensive for a teacher/harp player like myself.
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MrVerylongusername
586 posts
Oct 28, 2009
4:44 PM
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I feel for you! I love my Bassman and mine's just a reissue.
I bet though that your feedback problem was from the harp mic and not the speaker mic. In that instance a lineout would have made little difference; the harp mic would have still 'heard itself' in the front of house mix - that's your feedback loop. A cardioid dynamic mic that is close miking the amp, placed low down and far back from the FOH drivers is not likely to be a source of feedback. A hot, omnidirectional harp mic held at head height (i.e. midrange driver height) and in line with the PA cabs is.
I think there's probably more mileage in trying some different mics, tweaking EQ (on your amp and ringing out the PA properly at soundcheck) and looking at on-stage positioning.
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mrdon46
14 posts
Oct 28, 2009
11:32 PM
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My $.02--While, as Adam says, micing an amp to capture the quality imparted to the tone by the speaker is probably optimal, I've started adding line-outs to my amps simply to provide another option--at under $5 for a jack and a couple of resistors why not? You can go straight into a PA or into the input of a larger amp. Also, Ted Weber sells a transformer for $2 that you can use to add a balanced (XLR) line out to handle long cable runs without using a DI box.
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congaron
210 posts
Oct 29, 2009
8:06 AM
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Something to stand your ground on...I have had the sound guy ask me to turn down my valve junior..twice now. Then, they play cds or dvds before we play. Something changes from sound check(not that unusual). Of course, playing live can wind everybody up a notch as well. The end result these two times was the sound guy turning me UP and causing feedback on the first song. If I would have stood my ground on my amp setting, he wouldn't have turned me up. I would have been all set. Next time, i will fake it and turn down with my volume pedal, walking over to the amp just for effect. Now that I am wireless, we will use my personal PA more often and i'll set the gain structure and monitors myself as I play during sound check. I am training someone to run sound who can ride faders and check feedback until they get good at the sound check phase.
Sound check is critical! It's a crap shoot after a bad sound check.
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MrVerylongusername
589 posts
Oct 29, 2009
8:31 AM
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Absolutely!
...and don't forget that bodies soak up sound. Soundchecking in an empty room is one thing, but fill the room with sweaty punters, jiggling their bits about (or even polite, sedate ones, quietly admiring your artistry) and you need to up the FOH volume. When you're building your gain structure and setting levels, you have to allow a fair bit of headroom to compensate. That means finding the standing waves and notching them out on a graphic EQ; pushing the overall volume far higher than you intend to play. When that's done you can pull everything back, knowing you have plenty of volume 'in the bag'.
It's tricky to get right, it's painful to listen to and you really can't do it with punters in the room, but ringing out the PA is essential.
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congaron
211 posts
Oct 29, 2009
8:40 AM
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yep..I call them waterbags. The band guys get a kick out of it when I say "it will be different when the waterbags get here." All sound guys should know this, but many of the places we play are churches with volunteer sound help, used to running Sunday morning services and often marginally at that..sound-wise.
Well-intentioned folks without training..not always the easiest places to play.
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Greg Heumann
153 posts
Oct 29, 2009
11:38 AM
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No question the speakers are part of the total sound. Don't forget that even when using a line out your speaker(s) are still working and ARE part of the sound the audience hears. When your amp itself is "almost" loud enough already - the line-out seems to work very well. If your amp is a Valve Jr and you're trying to play outdoors to 10,000 people, I agree, the speaker's sound isn't going to reach the audience.
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
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LittleJoeSamson
101 posts
Oct 29, 2009
12:48 PM
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It is so subjective with the variables: type of amp, size of room, acoustics of venue, PA that you're feeding....
If you try lineout, use a heavy gauge speaker cable. The smaller guitar cables can be tinny and microphonic.
I prefer micing the amp, using a cabgrabber and an Audix-i5 ( but any good supercardioid mic will work ) aimed at the "sweet spot" towards the edge of the cone, at a 90* angle. I use a beam blocker in the center to help cut any shrill high's. Then I take a small styro cup with a hole in the bottom to fit for the mic, which I insert into it, to make a sort of shield. This further helps prevent ambient sound, particularly if you are set up close to the drummer, or other bandmates are foot tappers ( or yourself ). This uses a regular XLR cable.
I'm wondering how a PZM setup would sound, patched on a flat spot in the back of the cab?
( Hey Isaac, caught your harp mic vids. Neat stuff! )
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bluzlvr
256 posts
Oct 29, 2009
1:52 PM
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This thread makes me wonder if there would be any advantage to using a mic AND a line out together, giving the soundperson two channels to work with.
(Or am I just thinking like a greedy, obnoxious harp player?)
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