I mentioned this in the Sugar Blue thread, and thought it was really a separate topic. Many harp players, like Sugar Blue, John Popper, and others have a bad habit of playing major 3rds over minor chords. Not trying to attack players who do this, but I hear it all the time (I play more than just harmonica) and it drives me nuts. Steve Baker talks about it here and says some great things:
I thought the last 15 seconds or so were the most powerful, when he says that the previously discussed intellectual exercise is not going through his head while he's playing. You have to "know" how it's supposed to sound. You can have great intonation on the three draw, descending, ascending or stabbing the whole-step bend in a vacuum, but you need to have the correct "tone" crystallized in your mind. On the other hand, if you're a chart player in a band, orchestra, you simply play the notes as the composer has written them. When I played bone, I'd have to read and play a piece of music to know what it was supposed to sound like. When I play harp, I know what I want it to sound like and execute accordingly. For me, the mentation involved is completely opposite.
Dennis Gruenling is one harmonica player I've heard in some of his workshops who stresses the importance of understanding music and chords. This helps you know which notes will work well and which will not, whether you're playing harmonica or whatever.
It isn't as common to hear other instruments like sax, guitar, piano, etc., play major 3rds over minor chords, or wrong notes in general. I think harmonica players are more prone to do this because it's kind of easy to, in part due to the way the notes are laid out. It takes work if you're gonna play in a minor key and play in 2nd position. You have to be conscious of hitting the 3 draw half step bend and not the regular 3 draw. The same is true of the 7 draw. For me, I know that any notes I wanna play in the blues scale will work on a song in major key or minor key if I'm playing in 2nd position.
Very well done interview. Musical concepts described with clarity.
Personally, I learned two new things from this video:
1. "Widdley Niddley" is a great term to use for speed performers that play w/out concern for how music really works.
2. Sideburns are making a fashion comeback.
Who is the interviewer? (I'm curious).
mojojojo: any note that is played that sounds incorrect is always 1/2 step away from a correct sounding note, for the most part.
Passing notes are an entity unto themselves and have their own subtle musical usage do's and don'ts (some of it has to do with upon which beat they "land" and their placement within a musical line).
As Steve mentioned, playing a major third against a minor chord will clash, or sound harsh and/or incorrect.
Playing a major third against a strong "sus" chord also sounds harsh.
The "Third" of a chord is its most powerful and unforgiving note. It defines the chord.
A "sus" chord is one in which NO THIRD is evident and has its own unique sound as well.
I can think of no other note in a chord or scale that has the power to sound so incorrect over different chord voicings when used improperly.
As is evident in Steve's playing of the lower 2/3 of the diatonic harmonica, he knows how to "place a note created through bending technique" at it's proper pitch.
How many of you reading this can truthfully say that you "own" the 3 hole inhale first bend? C'mon now, be honest with yourselves.
I taught an "advanced" class at Augusta Heritage Blues Week and found 80% of these intermediate to advanced self proclaimed players had no real solid 3 hole inhale first bend (the minor 3rd) that they could claim to "own".
Sadly, this is one aspect of mastery that so many diatonic players hope to slide by with a general sense of pitch rather than nailing it right on, and seems to be a much harder issue to correct with those that have played harmonica for a while (as opposed to teaching a rank beginner how to do it properly). ---------- The Iceman
I own the 3 hole. That being said, I like that path of least resistance. Hence, choosing the right tool for the job.
I almost never play 2nd over a chord structure that is minor. The beauty of this is MANY patterns from cross work in other positions and then fit.
For example, both Sugar Blue, John Popper, and myself (who just ripped it off from them after finding a tab in a David Barrett book) frequently bounce around a major four pattern. This would start, say, on 4 blow, move to 4 draw, then 5 blow to 4 blow, etc. On paper, it looks like a patter based off of the first position major scale.
Sugar uses this in nearly every song. John Popper uses pretty much the whole pattern on the intro to Fallible from the album "four".
This pattern, especially if you can start and stop it from different points, works over any key diatonic to the harp. If I play it from 2nd, I end up hitting a 7 draw. Over a minor progression, this is a no-no. However, if I play the same pattern from 3rd, it sounds Dorian and almost always fits.
So, I play the 3 draw and 7 draw...as well as the 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow all the time in minor songs. The trick is, I play in 3rd, 4th, or 5th position where those notes aren't a major 3rd or 5th anymore!
To my ear, I think the claim that Blue and Popper do this all the time is a bit exaggerated. I think they do this over D7 chords more than most blues players, and I think they do the same thing I alluded to with positions. Sugar does for sure. Popper does more-so on his solo projects.
In reality, I think the issue becomes more of the missing blue pitches in 2nd position, moreso than playing wrong notes. Popper has several studio recordings out there now with overblows (always the 6ob). I am unaware of any from Mr. Blue.
In general, though, I hear Blue transposing patterns to different positions and Popper following more chord changes (remember harmony is important too!).
An example of this would be playing 2nd position over a minor blues progression. The 3 draw would NOT be a good pick to play over the I and IV, but it would fit over the V. Popper plays to the harmony of the song a lot more than most blues players.
Well said, Iceman, especially the part about many harp players thinking that they "own" the 3 draw half step bend. Apparently, HarpNinja is one of those players. Perhaps he does. I haven't heard him play enough in 2nd position minor to tell. If I did I would know immediately if he owned it or not.
HarpNinja, you said:
"To my ear, I think the claim that Blue and Popper do this all the time is a bit exaggerated."
With all due respect, your ears may be the problem, though I would agree that Sugar Blue does it more often than Popper. Sugar Blue, though I like his playing, is notorious for playing major 3rds over minor chords.
Popper is a different story. He plays so many things that sound bad in general over the chords until there's not enough time to discuss them all. On the other hand, he does do some cool stuff and I like his playing too, just not on everything. Aside from his note choices, he can also be a little sloppy, as in his version of "The Devil Went Down To Georgia" where he plays some good notes, just not very clean and in time. You have to have a really, really good sense of timing to pull this off well, like Brendan Power, for example.
Frederic Yonnet is another player who does some really cool stuff, but at times ventures off into the zone of rapid notes that just don't fit over the chords. I've played his stuff for some of the jazz musicians I play with and they notice the same things. (And they don't play harmonica.)
I'm not picking on any of these players... I'm just pointing out bad habits that harp players have which give serious musicians a negative opinion of harmonica players sometimes. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you played with Stevie Wonder, The Rollings Stones, Dave Matthews, or anyone else if you don't understand when you are playing bad sounding or downright wrong notes over the chords.
If you want to gauge where you stand as a harmonica player or a musician, check yourself against good musicians, especially piano players or jazz musicians, and ask for their honest feedback. A lot of players only go by the audience's reaction, how loud they cheer, etc. This is not wise, because most of the time the audience doesn't know anything about harmonica or even music. It's often easy to impress them. Better yet, learn to play the piano. It helps tremendously.
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 9:14 AM
Please post an example of Sugar Blue doing this. Also, bending the 3 is not unique to minor playing. My point with that comment is that I would pick 2nd position minor for a minor tune, even if I could hit all the bends every time, etc. There are simply better positions.
Off the top of my head, all the "minor" tunes I can think of regarding Sugar Blue are tunes where he doesn't play in 2nd.
I can't think of too many recordings where Popper is playing 2nd position minor. I can think of a slew where he is playing 2nd position major, though.
There used to be a site with harmonica keys. I can't find it. It would be cool to see a list of Sugar Blue albums and the harp/position. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
This is the example I gave in the previous Sugar Blue thread.
Here he plays major 3rds over minor chords, like he did in the studio version of the Rolling Stones song, "Miss You." Here he does it many times, both on the 3 draw and the 7 draw, and really rips into it here around the 4:20 mark:
My point is that there are certain notes and moves that are convenient on the harmonica, like sliding into the 7 draw, as well as some of the patterns Popper plays. Because of the way the motes on the harmonica are laid out, it's just the way it is.
But just because certain licks, notes, patterns, etc. are convenient, doesn't mean that they fit everywhere and over every chord.
You hardly ever, ever hear a singer sing a major 3rd over a minor chord, nor a piano player play a major 3rd over a minor chord. The brain kind of just tells us that it doesn't sound right (though a minor 3rd over a major chord often does). But when it comes to harmonica, a lot of players just play patterns because they are more convenient on the harmonica than on other instruments.
I'm saying this for the benefit of all of us as harmonica players, not trying to attack anyone. These rapid fire notes just don't make sense all the time, and are sometimes a turn off to musicians, and only help add to the stereotypical idea that some folks have of the harmonica.
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 10:24 AM
I know that even guitar players debate the tune, "Miss You", and the key, but I've always thought he was playing A Mixolydian and Blues over a Am to Dm vamp.
I am not arguing the they don't play the 3M over m chords. I am just saying it happens less than people think. Miss You is tricky, and it'd be great to discuss other songs. I know I've heard Sugar play the 3M where it has stuck out before - mainly when he is playing a scale based riff - but I would still contend that he plays a lot less over minor progressions than some make it sound. I would also argue that the "out" sounding 3M happens most often in his example over D7 chords where it is an in note.
I am sure there are examples of Popper doing this too, but most of BT's music, anyways, goes beyond I IV V progressions and would be harder to nail down examples of. Most of those "errors" can be explained with some sort of jazz theory, even if that wasn't his intent.
"If you want to gauge where you stand as a harmonica player or a musician, check yourself against good musicians, especially piano players or jazz musicians, and ask for their honest feedback. A lot of players only go by the audience's reaction, how loud they cheer, etc. This is not wise, because most of the time the audience doesn't know anything about harmonica or even music. It's often easy to impress them. Better yet, learn to play the piano. It helps tremendously."
I only agree with this assertion if you are trying to be a technically skilled player or really push yourself as a musician. At the end of the day, I think the audience's reaction is a VERY WISE thing to consider, and often much more important than what your peers think. In fact, the argument can be made that the more you appeal to your peers, the less you appeal to mass audiences, and the less popular you will become.
Again, if you want street cred with your peers, fine, but I'd take being popular with the masses every single time. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
This is a total generalization (as I have not heard his complete body of works) - John developed one unique velocity driven upper 2/3 of the diatonic type solo that he recycles in many of his songs.
John's unique style of sound is not related to melodic line, but is based on the upper layout of notes on the diatonic combined with rapid breathing in and out - coordinating the two to create a sequence of notes that are an entity unto themselves and do not always have an attachment to the chord changes moving beneath them.
I also have unsubstantiated second person accounts of his younger days when he would show up at NYC blues jam sessions and try to jam along while developing this approach. At first, he was not always enjoyed as an additional musical presence on the stage. However, he kept at it and kept pushing his way on stage until the rapid breathing and sequencing started to gel.
Now, even though his style of harmonica does not do it for me, he has had a tremendous impact on a younger audience in introducing them to harmonica, played at a GenX speed. I also feel he is a great songwriter and vocalist.
I tend to agree with your opinion of Frederic Yonnet. I've seen him do his solo work at a SPAH in Dallas as well as perform with jazz combos at IAJE Conventions. There are times when he plays some pretty cool melodic line. A lot of what I heard him create at high velocity sounded to me like a swarm of angry bees and I did not enjoy it.
Keeping the audience excited and happy is pretty much up there on my list. Of course, when you are dealing with the general public, most don't even know good from bad (in a musician's sensibility), but do know what they like.
(sometimes I've played a terrible set and feel like punching an audience member in the mouth when they come up to me later and tell me how awesome my set was. I have to remember that it isn't all about me when performing for "citizens"). ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 10:59 AM
I don't want you to think I have disdain for the audience,but sometimes they don't know s**t,especially with regards to harp players. If you want to work with good musicians,you have to play the "right" notes. Otherwise,you could be doomed to always play with people that are also playing the "wrong" notes.
"diatonic type solo that he recycles in many of his songs"
This is every player ever...unless they don't improvise. I insist that players who are improvising just copy and paste piece of vocabulary into different parts of solos. I think a huge misconception around improvisation is that for a solo to sound different it has to be unique from the rest of one's playing.
If it weren't for this copy/pasting, no one would have a unique voice on their instrument beyond their timbre. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
In a way I think it's true about the importance of pleasing the audience, but then again, I think that's entertainment or performance and it isn't necessarily the same as playing music. Some cats do it with costumes and antics. I'm not making a value statement, just saying I think these things can be separate concerns. I'm on board with what you say Lyle. Do we have any psychologists on the board? ----------
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 11:36 AM
I think my comment about impressing the audience is being misunderstood.
I definitely agree that it's important to play things that your audience likes and can get into, but this is no excuse for justifying playing bad notes or licks. Nor do I do think you should only play to impress your peers. I never said that. I'm saying that it's good to get another opinion of your note choices and how musical or tasteful they are, or are not, from someone else who knows music, especially keyboard players.
Others have had the same criticism on this forum of players like Mick Jagger and Bob Dylan, who get great audience response with sloppy harmonica solos, yet when it's someone who's supposed to be a top level player, folks are not as quick to receive the criticism. I'm really not trying to tear down anyone... just pointing out that bad habits are something to focus on if you want to distance yourself from the stereotype that people have of harmonica players.
As for Sugar Blue, that video is loaded with the major 3rd being played over the 1 chord, which is minor, and the 4 chord, which is also minor (Dm7), not a D7. Do you not hear this, Mike? Sit down at the piano, play the 2 chords in this song, and play Sugar Blue's lick - 7 blow, 7 draw (slide)... 6 blow, 6 draw (slide)... and if that doesn't sound awful to you, then maybe to you it's OK to play those notes if it sounds good. But, he is clearly playing major 3rds over the 1 chord, which is minor, not only on the 7 draw, but on the 3 draw at other points in the song.
As for Popper, I don't see the point in getting into a discussion about him, as it is clear in this thread as in others, that you are a John Popper fan, thus you sometimes defend his bad playing. You can try and use jazz theory to justify his "errors" if you want, but the bottom line is that he plays some things that are just plain wrong. Nothing wrong with being a Popper fan. I like him too and have some of his music, as well as Sugar Blue. But one can't overlook some of his or Sugar's bad habits because he or she is a fan.
Here's yet another example at 2:10, and really throughout other parts of the song where another harp player uses the major 3rd over minor chords. It amazes me that players, of any instrument, would play such wrong notes with such confidence.:
"John's unique style of sound is not related to melodic line, but is based on the upper layout of notes on the diatonic combined with rapid breathing in and out - coordinating the two to create a sequence of notes that are an entity unto themselves and do not always have an attachment to the chord changes moving beneath them."
This sounds like about 90% of blues harmonica players if you switch upper to lower, lol. I don't mean that as a dig, and in this instance, while I disagree regarding Popper, won't spend my time posting a lot of examples.
As someone who is VERY familiar with Popper's work, and I can honestly say he is an influence, but not someone I spend a lot of time trying to play like, I would say that all his work since, "Straight On Till Morning", has more harmony and melodic driven solos than speed demon wanking. If you check out his work with the John Popper Project and Duskray Troubadors, you'd see a slew of examples of what I am talking about. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
I have taken a few jazz lessons from Wim Dikgraaf, and one of the things that surprised me was he said jazz players will often play the major third duringa minor chord. We discussed this multiple times.
I concur with HarpNinja as far as playing to please audiences. I've seen instances where musicians play to please or impress other musicians while it goes unappreciated by the lay listener. It's like being a chef and preparing a dish that people like to eat rather than impressing other culinary experts. Not to say that you can't play "correctly" and please audiences, too.
i think this may be the most important thread on this forum ever! so thank you mr lyle i remember a discussion re: playing a wrong note and several people saying if you hit a bad note play it twice totally the wrong approach you need to play the correct notes i learned more about music and harmonica playing from the song miss you,than any other song
the steve baker video speaks volumes its a good idea to watch that twice
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 11:40 AM
As previously stated, I agree that Blue plays out notes. I think that everyone points directly to, "Miss You", as their example but stops there. I am most familiar with In Your Eyes and Blue Blazes. No one brings up the minor songs from those ablums - many of which he doesn't play cross harp on. Help Me would be a good example ***of where he plays out notes over a minor progression too, although Sonny Boy played the song in cross harp too.
In all honesty, I think Sugar plays the same couple of upper octave riffs in every song whether they work or not. I think by in large people rip on him for using things like the 3M over blues progressions and not minor ones, as there aren't that many minor tunes he is playing over (unless his most recent stuff is ripe with that).
Again, I am not disagreeing that they do it, but I think they play far less 2nd position minor blues, and much more D7 blues. In that approach, they play a lot of Mixolydian. That's probably not the best thing to do, but it is what they do...and probably part of the reason they are unusual in playing the high end of the harp...playing things beyond Mixolydian can be hard!
Regarding a defense of Popper, I always go back to the same point...people here him play out of context a couple of times, or only listen to the same 2-3 songs and think they got it all figured out.
Regarding note choice...Its all fair game in my world other than using a 3M over a minor progression and using a #4 over a D7 chord.
I primarily play in terms of note exclusion, hence why I'd not play 2nd position minor...it lays out less clean than 3rd, 4th, or 5th. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 1:30 PM
It's too bad that guy can't hear the tune, with that hair he could have been the NBT. ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
I hate to use my own video as an example, but this was my take on minor playing in 2nd position from a few years ago. I think the minor playing on a major harp example starts around 4:10:
I would have to agree with Steve Baker's take on the subject as well. I love 3rd, 4th and 5th positions for minor playing, but sometimes I want the expression of 2nd position.
To me, major 3rds over minor chords are like fingernails on a chalkboard.
Would be interested in examples of what Wim taught you re:maj 3rd over minor chord. Is it at tremendous velocity or something that lingers?
@harpninja " I insist that players who are improvising just copy and paste piece of vocabulary into different parts of solos.....If it weren't for this copy/pasting, no one would have a unique voice on their instrument beyond their timbre."
This is kinda a broad statement and, while I can see the logic behind it, don't buy into it completely, although I have heard many artists who do copy/paste.
When you say their timbre, I guess you may mean the sound of them on their instrument. For instance, the unique sound of Chet Baker and Miles Davis on trumpet is such that it is that sound that defines them, and having studied both of these guys a lot, I don't hear too much cut and paste and more inspired note choices. What is fun for me is to listen to the live Miles recordings, some done every night for a few nights at a club -same set list each night - yet the improvs go in different directions each time.
Harmonicawise, Mark Hummel and Kim Wilson seem to constantly surprise me as their solos unfold. I can listen to each all night long and, although some ideas are recognizable, a lot of what they play hits me out of left field and tickles that surprise section of my listening brain. It was Paul deLay that blew me out of the water and reinvigorated my love for diatonic when I heard his stuff....totally original, although, as time went on, I did recognize some bits and pieces recycled here and there.
As I've stated in lectures about improv, my theory is the 80/20 percent applied to listening to music. The audience likes to be familiar with (or predict the direction of) a solo about 80% of the time and be taken by surprise 20% of the time to keep their interest. Any more than an 80% prediction rate and their attention may start to wander due to boredom while less than 80% prediction success and they lose interest due to being unable to relate to the music. ---------- The Iceman
3M over m makes me think of Friday the 13th. I think 3rd gives you a lot of expression in the first two octaves. You can get in in the third octave if you overbend.
If you are playing blues, you can wail away in 2nd over the IV chord. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
"Would be interested in examples of what Wim taught you re:maj 3rd over minor chord. Is it at tremendous velocity or something that lingers?"
Yes, I'd like to learn more about that, too. The only minor chord appropriate scale with a major third that comes to mind is the bebop dorian, but in that case the major third is used as a chromatic passing tone between the minor third and the perfect fourth. I don't think it's a note that players linger on or play on strong beats. ----------
They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. Charlie Parker
'Wrong' notes sometimes sound harsh. That doesn't mean that some people aren't going to like that sound, or that they aren't there on purpose sometimes. Our ideas about dissonance are always evolving.
In poetry, there are times you deliberately break the meter or the rhyme scheme specifically to draw attention to the spot. Of course, that doesn't mean everyone doing it is doing it intentionally. The first rule of poetic license is you are supposed to know the rules before you break them.
I am familiar with that too, and in most instances, a chromatic run means something will be out sounding. However, with the layout of the harmonica, I would bet it is more a matter of convenience than anything else for those guys.
In most instances, these guys are hitting the 3M as a passing note in a scale pattern. If they played with a tuned down 7 draw, it would sound totally in. Well, unless they are hitting a major 6th, which they also do a lot.
If you listen to Blues' In Your Eyes, he plays a few songs in 3rd by transposing his first position major riffs that still work over a D7 chord in cross, and plays them over a minor progression.
If you are a good 2nd position Mixolydian player, you can BS a lot of stuff. I personally try to avoid playing major notes over minor progressions, but every once in a while slip in something dumb.
---------- Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 12:16 PM
I lost track of what was being said here when Todd started playing and I hugged the speakers...I spent some time with a woman that you met to jam with recently tonight and we were both expressive of your affability. I never know whether to play 2nd or 3rd on minors because I get so excited by anything minor: I often switch between the two in a song. Todd did his 7 hole adjustment on one of my GM's a couple of years ago and I love pulling it out where it fits.....I play in front of a lot of people and that 80/20 ratio Larry expressed is a bullseye from my experience! ---------- Facebook
@iceman - interviewer is Dave Barrett, operator of Harmonica Master Class where you can find the harp keys index to most blues albums/song/performers.
---------- MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2013 11:27 PM
There's also the concept that "pleasure" (ie a sigh) sounds from high to low, but pain (a yelp) sounds low to high. Playing a maj 3rd against a minor chord highlights the #3rd and I think that's what puts a lot of people off. Plus, Minor keys tend to sound more grounded into their respective key. Where as blues (particularly using dominant chords have that already built in tension and movement.
Many years ago I attended a roots of the blues concert at Columbia University that featured Cephas and Wiggins along with a kora player from West Africa--from Mali or Senegal, I can't remember which. He was a well-known player, though, somebody whose name I'd come into contact with.
What surprised me was that he did the opposite of what Cephas and Wiggins and other blues players did. They played major chords on the guitar and harmonica--dominant seventh chords, in the case of the guitar--and sang blue thirds. He played minor chords on the kora and sang major thirds. Interesting.
Some things that aren't supposed to work work anyway.
Miles Davis would say "The note you choose will sound right or wrong based on the next note you play".
There is a slow tempo song in which Miles solos over an extended Bb-9 chord. He winds his slow descending melodic line down by landing on a B note and sustains it. At first, it sounds like a wrong choice, but then he plays a short Bb as a passing tone into a repeated B, sustained again, and magically, all is right with the musical world.
From wrong note to excellent right note based on what is played next! ---------- The Iceman
