Recently, I've been sitting in with a number of musicians, in a variety of combinations (duos, 6 piece bands.) On these occasions, I have played directly through the PA as my usual amp was either not available or the situation was such that setting it up was not practical.
Currently I am investigating buying a used Digitech RP pedal and buying some patches from Richard Hunter's website. It seems like a pretty easy solution to getting a good tone playing through a PA plus I would get a variety of sounds for relatively low cost or as opposed to using a daisy chain of pedals a la Jason Ricci.
I would like to hear some other experiences from the gentle readers at this forum who have used the Digitech. I once bought a RP 255, but returned it as it looked too complicated but now I am really motivated to give it a try. Thank you and Happy New Year.
My RP 150 would have been thrown out the window (I actually contemplated that in a moment of fury) if it hadn´t been for Richard´s patches. It was completely unusable -- and programming such a thing is way beyond me. (I got it real cheap.)
The relatively few $ you pay to Richard gives you not "good tone", as you write, but several options for a "good sound" and I guess that´s what you mean. A complete makeover for a few bucks. Strongly recommended.
Drawbacks on the RP: not battery operated: it would have been nice to have that option; as I said, unusable (for harmonica) outside of Richards settings: it would have been nice to be able to fiddle around with it a bit yourself -- not a chance if you´re not a computer guy (here I´ve been told that Zoom has a simliar machine that even we idiots can program to some extent); the tuner function is not particularly well suited for harmonica: it would have been nice to have that easily at hand.
No important objections. If you´ve got the money, go ahead and buy it.
Yes, yes yes Martin, I meant sound, not tone. I hate to have the topic devolve to where good tone comes from!
I am looking for something plug and play into a PA. I wonder if there is another pedal I could plug into a PA (ie: Lone Wolf or a Boss Fender Bassman pedal.)
hunter's patches are very good and versatile. however- if you are just going to use 1 or 2 patches, you would be better served with a lone wolf pedal. (unless richard has begun selling the patches a la carte.) i use 3-5 of the patches during a gig. and i think 1/2 may be just so i get my money's worth from the patches.
needless to say, it is very nice not having to bring an amp everywhere!
No, I don´t think Richard sells à la carte -- but even including his fee I´d have to pay three times or four times as much for an LW pedal, so the choice wasn´t very hard for me. But note that I live in Sweden: you surely get those LW things for a bit less in the US, if that´s where 6SN7 is.
6SN7, which country are you in? I have a Digitec RP350 with Richard Hunter patches installed totally as new and available for sale. If you are interested E-mail me stevepayne2@blueyonder.co.uk Cheers Geordie.
@geodiebluesman- I live in CT, USA. My thinking was to get a used rig and the patches, about 150$. I appreciate your offer. @eharp. Iam not interested in some of some of the stuff that is far out. Frankly, I am not looking for an octave do hickey, just to get a gritty, tube like sound. I understand if one could do that, nobody would own a amp. I read good things about the Harp Attack doing what I want. I do think some of the organ sounds are cool from the digitech. I am not looking to sound like Mr. Ricci (no knock on him), thats just not my "voice."
"Frankly, I am not looking for an octave do hickey, just to get a gritty, tube like sound."
I'd say if you're set on getting a pedal. Then the LW Harp Attack would be the thing to go for. I've never used one, but from all the reports I hear it's a good piece of kit. Everytime I've heard one it sounds more like a tube amp than the Digitech pedals. Which always sound too synthetic to my ear.
I picked up an RP350 for $50 about 6 months ago. I have acquired a couple of tube amps in the interim so the pedal has been collecting dust, but I got it back out last night and was having a lot of fun with it.
For me, buying Richard's patches would take a lot of the fun out of it. Digitech has software and a USB plug that will hook the unit up to your computer and you can get hours/days/weeks of fun & practice out of experimenting. Save the settings you like. I am up to 7. I think there are 65 more open memory slots.
I have been going to a Thursday night jam, down the street, carrying an amp with me, but I rarely use the amp and wind up playing through the PA. I have yet to try the RP350 there, mainly because I would need to get there real early to try the setup, but I think that is on my short list of things to do in 2013. I wonder how well amp settings cross to PA settings?
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2013 2:01 PM
@thievin' Those Digitech pedals work best through a PA or a S/S amp. The Hunter patch sets come with that recomendation plus the advice to use a 'non harp' specific mike. I've tried them through a C/M into a valve amp and while still useful i'd take Richards advice on the set up. They are perfect for Jams,plug into the PA and away you go.
while i do think richard's patches are well worth the cost, i also think that the difficulty of using the rp has been way overstated. "unusable (for harmonica) outside of Richards settings"? not hardly, especially since the rp 150/25/350 series.
richard's patches save you some time/effort in getting good sounds off the rack, but you can also go a long way just tweaking knobs like you would any other pedal. the only difference is that the RP is like a whole set of pedals.
I have an RP155 with Richards patches & I use it all the time as a recording interface & it works well. I do think however that to some degree you have to ignore the descriptions given re each patch & just listen & choose accordingly. There are some really weird effects which I think I will have no use for.
For recording I have backing tracks in Audacity & I record vocals direct using a Blue Yeti mic which is superbly warm for vocals but exactly the opposite for harp ie shrill as it accentuates all the high frequencies. I use additional harp tracks recorded via the RP155 which does provide enough settings to get a good warm sound. If I am recording in one take for eg a youtube onto a webcam I simply use the Digitech in line with my amp aimed at the Blue Yeti and use a Fireball mic for harp & do vocals direct to the Yeti. It is messy & I'm sure that simpler better recording technology is out there. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
I only uses pedals to the board. I've used Harp Commanders, Tech 21 pedals, Digitech, Lone Wolf, POD HD's, etc.
If you just want one amp sound, there are lots of options out there. If you want diverse sounds with effects, the DT stuff from Hunter is great. I have an RP255 and the patches. I really only like the dark Champ tones for general use, but the effects are great.
My solution is a Tech 21 Para DI with a Line 6 M9, but The DT and patches are more affordable and let you do most of the same. I'd recommend trying them to people. I found they only worked really well with the Fireball and lower gain patches. It is great for even the one dark Champ patch with delay. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Eventually, I am going to take this patch and add the other effects. The only con being you have to cycle through things. I like to use a lot of effects. If I was only using them here and there, I'd just use the DT. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
I have a question for you guys who use digital effects and amp modelers: 6SN7 said he is looking for "a gritty, tube like sound" through the PA. Is that even possible with digital effects? Can you post sound clips of these effects? I am interested in the "gritty tube" part. I'm thinking of setting up my PA and trying it just to see what is possible.
The Para DI will for sure do this. Check out "Carolina Blues" in my sig. There are some very distorted and buzzy parts. If you listen to the above YT vid, I am using one of the cleanest amp patches with a Fireball...a very clean mic.
When I dig it, it crunches, but the reason I like the patch is it is fairly clean. IMO, all the other Hunter patches that aren't the DI's are crunchier and more distorted.
Here is the Para DI with a Fireball at different Mid and Drive settings:
You can hear on the last clip that it is pretty raunchy even when being played with fast single notes.
Here is the same pedal set much cleaner with a bullet mic and then the same settings with the Fireball:
I much prefer clean tones, though. The Para DI is analog, but you can easily dial in blues tones on the DT with Hunter's patches. I will try and to that tonight if I find any time to do so. The Champ and Bassman tones on the initial download are very overdriven. Again, I like dynamic mics with some warmth or crunch, and not the usually bullet mic tones which might be more of what you're after.
I know you can do that with the Para very easily, and I am sure if you just turned down the gain on some of the Hunter patches you'd get similar effect.
Rick, have you ever had someone use a Lone Wolf Harp Attack through the PA at one of your jams? That's what I am looking for, an easy solution when I sit in with a band, when setting up an amp is impractical. Thanks.
I had a Harp Attack and it sounded good through the PA. I used it mostly like how Jason Ricci uses his - this was a couple years ago - and got rid of it when I went to a small amp. In hindsight, that was dumb.
If you don't want effects, or care if they aren't there, the Attack, Break, or Tech 21 (Blonde, Para DI, Bass DI) would work just fine. I've used all of those live before. The benefit to those is also tweakability relative to mic choice.
My first go with the Hunter patches was with a SM57 and it would feedback with my rig. I like the Bassman sound above alot, but find that it sounds more distorted when I use it at home. I'll see if I can record direct like that tonight. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
6SN7, yes, twice that I can think of a player came in with a Harp Attack pedal and played through the PA. I think it depends a lot on the player: It sounded pretty good one time and not so good the next.
Of the three samples that Kingley put up I like the Harp Break best. It came closest to having a bit of organic grit or crunch, but that may have been his technique. Good player.
I have an idea I am going to try down in my amp room...
Okay, so I set up my PA and played through it using a Shure SM57 mic. The PA is a Mackie 808, the PA we use at clubs that do not have a sound system. I used Mackie C200 speakers.
First I played directly into the PA with everything set flat and the channel trimmed so it was not clipping except on the loudest transients. The tone was as you might imagine: Pretty dry.
Next I cranked the channel trim all the way up and rolled back the master volume. Better, but still not very tube ampish. It distorted but not with the same nice sound you get from a good harp amp.
Then I used a Presonus Tube-Pre between the mic and the PA. I cranked the Drive control and rolled back the Gain control on the Presonus, and backed off the channel trim on the PA a bit. It still clipped the PA channel most of the time.
Here is a photo of the controls on the Presonus:
I didn't use the compressor, just the top preamp. I don't think they make these any more, but you can get the exact same effect with an inexpensive ART tube preamp.
What I listened for was that slight tearing on the front edge of percussive notes you hear with a nice tube amp. That is the "grit." So I just played the same things over and over and listened.
The preamp did give a bit of that sound. The sound does not have all the moving parts you hear in good tube amps, but if what you want is grit it did have some of that. I thought it sounded pretty good.
I captured it all on video and I might put it up later after I have time to edit it.
Edited to add the video: (please pardon my goofy repetitive playing. Trying to get that grind.)
If what you are after is a more "tubey" sound then this is a lot cheaper than the digital modelers and effects, and I think it has a more authentic sound.
The problem with the theory about playing through the PA at jams is that you seldom have control of the PA settings. If you hand a cable to the sound guy or jam master you don't really know what you are gonna get.
That argues in favor of two things:
1- Bring your own big amp, or 2- Step up to the vocal mic and play.
Just be aware you will probably be at the mercy of whoever owns the board. That is why so many jammers prefer to play through big harp amps.
I don't recall anyone asking for a jam rig. The OP wanted to know about the DT gear and mentioned sitting in with bands in instances where an amp isn't practical. I do this all the time, and I don't recall any instance where I wasn't able to test the FOH sound before playing. This ranges from coffee house-type gigs to full band large-stage situations.
I am not saying that your comments relative to coming up for a jam aren't true, just that there are more playing situations to consider.
Personally, and you can hear the clips above, I don't think the DT is the best option for the situation described. It will work, it will sound good, and it is cost effective. However, there is no global eq, the gain structure from patch to patch varies, and it is hard to make changes on the fly.
My M9/Sans Amp is incredibly easy to use and you have much better control of effects and their parameters. However, it is overkill for the situations described above.
Any of the Behringer Sans Amp clones, Art Preamp, Lonewolf gear, etc. will function just as well, be easy to use, and in some cases are cheaper. The con here is there are no effects. That is only a con to some. Generally, I just play straight to the PA and rarely even bring my own mic, though, lol.
Mike, fair enough. But 6SN7 said clearly that he was mostly interested in a "gritty, tube like sound." I think exotic modelers and pedals might be a bit of overkill for his requirements. A little tube preamp like the Presonus or the ART will get actual tube grit through the PA, and warm things up at the same time.
And yes, I have kind of a knee jerk response to many gear questions. I get so many questions at jams I tend to think in that context, and I know lots of members of this forum are jammers.
As previously stated, I agree that the DT isn't my first pick for sit-ins for a host of reasons.
The most badass thing is to play James Cotton style - cup a vocal mic and go. Just sayin'!
I really like the Dark Blue Champ patch with my SM57. That is a great recording sound. I probably won't use it live much as I am trying to limit the gear I schlep and prefer a different layout for effects and insist on global eq/tone controls.
An acoustic band locally asked me to come to a rehearsal next week. I will bring the M9/Tech 21. I can add reverb and use the Para DI as a tube preamp of sorts. It is very flexible! I've used it for beatbox, stomp box, harp, and vocals. I picked up the Behringer clone (which doesn't have a drive knob) and use that for the second channel of my USB preamp. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Mike, your files seem to be set to auto-download. I'm fine with it because I trust you aren't a virus, but it might freak newer people out since there isn't an affirmative download click. (It freaked out my browser warning- 'This site is attempting to download multiple files')
Given that the OP said he wants a "gritty, tube like sound." From what I've heard and read. I think the best option would probably be the Lone Wolf Harp Attack or Harp Break. Very simple set up and operation with a decent sound at a reasonable price.
I have no idea how to just stream them. I c/p'ed the code from the tutorial. If a mod can fix it, I fully support that. They are mp3's hosted on my personal site, so they should be safe.
I like the RP255, but plan on getting a Zoom G5 ASAP. That might mean selling off my RP, Para DI, and M9. I don't play or record enough to keep multiple rigs.
