Randy G. Blues
86 posts
Sep 30, 2009
10:22 AM
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Maybe it's just me, but...
I am an amateur musician, enjoying playing the blues with just about anyone who will have me. I am also a graphic artist/writer/photographer who has done a number of commercial works including creating and maintaining website for myself as well as clients. I have also created a few owner's manuals for coffee appliances.
While they are different endeavors, I consider both music and the graphic arts to be on the same level. They both take a level of creativity, practice, an investment in time and equipment, and so on.
So when I saw the following on Craig's List in the musicians' section it got to me a bit:
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Any Graphic Designers who can help us out?
We are looking to get a graphic or two done within the next week or so... Graphic Design Students, If you are looking to get your name out, we will give you full credit on wherever the graphic is used and will advertise for you on our website/myspace. I am looking to get either a CD cover made or a banner, i have the pictures already, just need some fonts/texts and maybe a little cutting and pasting. Please email me with details and Ideas. Thank You!
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I wrote the guy back and said:
Dude! How about: "Any musicians who want to play for free, please call. We can't pay but we will put your name out there."? Asking for free graphic arts work is the same thing. Art is art. How can you expect people to respect you as an artist when you don't respect other artists.
How can I say this? I am a musician and a graphic artist both. To get decent at either takes time, dedication, practice, talent, and a financial investment in equipment. The only difference is the nature of the product.
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You will notice that, although I was somewhat pissed at the guy's nerve, I took the high ground. Even a simple graphics job can take hours, and for that he was offering what would probably amount to nothing.
But to my surprise, he actually replied back to me:
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Get something better to do then commenting on everyones craigslist business. Since you probably don't have a red cent in your pocket, maybe you should get up off the computer and get a job...Because minding your own business is sometimes best! Nerd
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I am not sure whether or not his "Nerd" comment at the end of his reply was an attmept at name-calling or was his sig. His rely failed to address the actual concern that he was asking for an artist to do work for him for what would probably end up as free. So I replied back:
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Listen up, child. I am a successful, professional graphic artist, and I work for companies here as well as in the Orient. If I thought you had any sense of the art and what it takes to get good at it, I would give you the links to my professional work. Beyond that, your obvious affront to what I wrote, and turning it into a personal attack on an unrelated front shows that you know I am right, "Me thinks thou doest protest too much." [In the message I had re-phrased the Shakespeare quote for him for understanding]
My point was that asking someone to do your graphics for you for free is no different than someone asking your band to come and play a private birthday party for free. Art is art, and if you were a real musician you would see that point. On the other hand, your attacking me for that opinion shows your immaturity. Grow up.
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So maybe I am a bit over-sensitive to such requests after investing 4 years in school learning to become a better artist (before there were even computers, and when if you wanted a special font you created it from scratch with pen and ink), and investing countless hours developing my skills in Photoshop, Illustrator, etc., and the money involved in computers and software.
But is that any different from someone asking you to haul your band out to some gig where there is a cover charge but you only get to play for free and they will advertise your name in exchange?
So my point of view was that one artist should respect the other. His offer may have been a bit more fair if he would have said, "We will come play your function for free if you donate your artwork to us... Let's negotiate hours of work for hours of play, and see what we can work out..." etc.
And, just in case you are wondering, no, I did not offer my services to him...
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Buddha
1034 posts
Sep 30, 2009
10:33 AM
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"Graphic design isn't art"
LOL
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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tookatooka
571 posts
Sep 30, 2009
10:55 AM
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I reckon the advertiser wasn't looking for a fully professional job. With images at hand and only a one week timescale there wouldn't be great deal that a pro would want to do.
On the other hand a student designer with Photoshop may only be too pleased to show off their skills purely for the kudos and something to put on their CV.
Don't be too hard on the advertiser, I'm sure he would have been delighted to see something for his banner that a professional would puke at.
The net has made a lot of stuff more attainable now and there are those of us who do stuff purely because we enjoy it. You only have to look at Adam's example of giving it all away which I am sure has been of benefit to many who couldn't afford it, including maybe yourself if you've watched any of his YouTube stuff.
There will always be a demand for upmarket graphic art from upmarket corporations and companys who recognise good quality.
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dfwdlg
63 posts
Sep 30, 2009
11:35 AM
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Ever wonder why bands still get paid what they did 20 years ago? It's simply the market. If you want more money and someone else will play for less, they're going to get a shot (which may be their last if they stink). It will always be this way unless you hit the big time. You have to get a start somewhere (chicken & egg?).
Still, there is art for art's sake. I spent a Sunday afternoon recording an unknown artist because I liked the way he sounded and wanted to see if I could make a cool recording. In return, I got free pizza and pasta and some good connections. I didn't expect anything but a chance to plant a seed and work on my recording chops. That kid's song is still in my head two weeks later.
Bottom line as I've seen it in serious athletics and music, there is a definite change in people's perspective when their activity/creative work is their primary livelihood vs. something that is their hobby. It usually causes some conflict.
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Randy G. Blues
87 posts
Sep 30, 2009
11:52 AM
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Sandy 88 wrote: "Graphic design isn't art"
Then harmonica isn't a real musical instrument. :-P
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Randy G. Blues
88 posts
Sep 30, 2009
12:05 PM
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dfwdlg wrote: "Ever wonder why bands still get paid what they did 20 years ago?"
I thought about how musicians have been ripped off by promoters, managers, and record companies for decades when I wrote that. My feeling was that as artists we didn't have to rip each other off. If he would have offered SOMETHING.. a keg, a lunch, or even just said that they don't have any cash so, "let's talk about a trade.." Even just to bring the band over for a few hours of raking! Something to show a bit more appreciation of fairness!
tookatooka wrote: "I reckon the advertiser wasn't looking for a fully professional job. With images at hand and only a one week timescale there wouldn't be great deal that a pro would want to do."
I thought the same. But even a simple jobs ["...I am looking to get either a CD cover made or a banner..."] could take many hours to do right. A program like Open Office (which is FREE!) or Word can add simple text to an image. They have a website and MySpace pages so someone there has a computer.. made me think that it wasn't going to be a simple job.
Seems like everyone with a guitar is a musician, everyone with a digital camera is ready to shoot weddings, and everyone with a color printer is a graphic artist. Based on that he will easily find someone to do that job.
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Sandy88
4 posts
Sep 30, 2009
12:16 PM
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A musical instrument is a device used to produce musical sounds, therefore the harmonica is a musical instrument.
Graphic design is design, and is not art.
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tookatooka
572 posts
Sep 30, 2009
1:16 PM
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Randy G Blues said, "everyone with a digital camera is ready to shoot weddings, and everyone with a color printer is a graphic artist. Based on that he will easily find someone to do that job".
But if that's what someone wants, why buy a Rolls Royce when all you really need is a bicycle?
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scstrickland
264 posts
Sep 30, 2009
1:44 PM
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Sandy88 interesting can of worms you have opened?
Are landscape designers artists?
Interior decorators?
Film directors?
Dancers?
architects?
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nacoran
206 posts
Sep 30, 2009
1:49 PM
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Everything is about supply and demand. Small time musicians don't make much money because there are so many of us. Randy, I did give away my work the other day, at an open mic. My friend drew a graphic that her boyfriend's band uses on their T-shirt. I've actually read a couple articles recently on the problems that graphic artists are having. There are sites that hook up aspiring graphic artists with clients. The guy who designed the Twitter bird got a ridiculously small amount. The thing is, for most uses people don't need real graphic artists. With Photoshop people can make something that is 'good enough.' There are already programs that make up new music.
Musicians may be in a better position, since there is still some cache attached to live performance and more people care about the 'who' part of what they are listening to than the 'what' part compared to art work, but you as you can see with the record companies, the industry is changing.
Complaining about how the world is changing is a useless past time. Artists of any sort have to realize that we aren't doing brain surgery. We aren't going to be able to argue that we need special protections and the rights to establish our own minimum standards. We aren't going to get the right to regulate who calls themselves an artist, which means prices will fall if someone is willing to do it cheaper. If you want to win a job, show them your portfolio. Don't be surprised though if someone comes in with a lower bid. Getting a CD cover in your portfolio could actually be a good way to build up some cred. Capitalism and technology can combine to create a lot of economic casualties. Don't expect to see huge payouts for CD covers while the CD is dying unless you've built up a big name for yourself.
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mickil
549 posts
Sep 30, 2009
1:53 PM
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RGB,
I sympathise with what you're saying, but the title 'Artists' Respect for Other Artists' isn't really what you're talking about, me thinks.
This guy is just trying to find cheap labour to do something that he thinks doesn't require experience. If he's wrong about that, which he may well be - I've done the web design thing without using WYSIWYG's, so I know it's not straightforward - then he'll learn the hard way.
There's not much you can do about it though, I suppose.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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RyanMortos
341 posts
Sep 30, 2009
3:41 PM
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From the forum message board registration page:
"Choose a Member Name
examples: Sandy88, JohnS
"
Humorous that you would use an example as your user name. What really do you know about creativity, lol?
Between that and you saying, "Graphic design is design..." makes me laugh. Just because design is in the name does not mean that it can't be art. Design is indicating creation. It's a graphic designers job to make something that's attention grabbing to the chosen audience. Sure, we aren't talking Van Gogh art for entertainment, we're talking art for business. Sure anyone can modify the Nike/Newport logo for their product but it takes real creativity to come up with something original and memorable that easily is identifiable with your product or service.
Edit: think I lost myself there...
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2009 4:00 PM
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RyanMortos
342 posts
Sep 30, 2009
3:46 PM
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That being said, sometimes beginning artists will do free work to get their name out there. I probably would be further along on a more comfortable career path had I a portfolio of stuff I did for free as opposed to no portfolio of stuff I did for companies. Though, I do see how asking a professional to do something for free just to get their name out there is insulting.
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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eharp
319 posts
Sep 30, 2009
4:56 PM
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dont leave me hanging, randy. what did he say to that?
i love these soap opera-type threads.
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Randy G. Blues
89 posts
Sep 30, 2009
5:55 PM
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I got one very odd response that I took to be sent to the wrong person that, iirc, said "Leon" or such. It was like he started to type something and hit send instead of some other key... You know.. one of those... "I'll just type this to him and tell him what an ass he is, Wait, I don't want to say that, I'll just hit the discard-message button... OF CRAP! WRONG KEY!"
That is quite a bit of nothing, so we will forever be hanging.. I wish he would of at least sent a link to his MySpace page so we could hear the group. Maybe I would have been impressed... Maybe not.
I do not see his request problematic, but his approach sure was. Something like, Me and my friends started a group in homeroom yesterday and we need some graphic assistance. Can you help?" And maybe throw in, "We can't pay you right now, but my Mom is pretty cute,,," Throw the poor artist a bone... Or let the poor artist throw his .. never mind... :-O
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MagicPauley57
64 posts
Sep 30, 2009
6:09 PM
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just to add me two cents or tuppence worth.
Both Myself and my brother in law studied graphic art and product design .I can say that he is an artist , he may use modern mediums but whether it's for commercial purposes or not it's still an art form , just because someone wants it cheap , they forget they are paying for someone elses expertise to convey their brief into something that communicates with the public .
do you think the designer say for a fender bassman wasn't an artist? , after all it's more than just sticking a few speakers in a box and adding some electronics, it has to look great , and make people want to use
it .
if they didn't advertise it by using graphic artists who sold it to the public in simple words and pictures , possibly using a famous musician to push the image ,
If someone wants it for free then do it themself and see how far they get, it will probably get thrown in the bin , or forgotten.
all the best album covers there has ever been have been design by graphic artists who can make or break a grpup of any musical artist.
do you think Peter blake designed the Sgt Pepper album for a packet of fags and a pint of beer? no I didn't think so!
If i ask my brother in law to do some thing for me ,I would pay him properly , I wouldn't have it any other way . besides he has to live as well !
I'm with you Randy g blues , don't sell yourself short for anyone .
one last thing , at the average jam night , would you want to play all night for some band who want you to play all your best licks , only for them to take the money and say oh thanks mate ,we like your playing but not enough to pay you for it , that's how it i would see it anyway , and that's why i don't do jam bands anymore .
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congaron
152 posts
Sep 30, 2009
7:30 PM
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Since he said "students," and "email me with details," maybe someone should do that and see what he really meant? You know, make him and offer and see what he does. I didn't see the word free anywhere. Maybe the details he wants are prices and available services. Just saying. It looks like he has low expectations, maybe he will pay a small fee.
It might be a fun experiment....but i don't have time to do it... I have a free Sunday night outdoor gig to practice for.
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Randy G. Blues
90 posts
Sep 30, 2009
7:47 PM
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congaron said - "Since he said "students," and "email me with details," maybe someone should do that and see what he really meant?"
Put it ALL together- He stated, in part, "I am looking to get either a CD cover made or a banner."
Can we assume that he is going to be selling the CDs (or selling the digital music from them)? The CDs with the artwork that someone else is going to do, presumably for free?
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congaron
154 posts
Sep 30, 2009
8:00 PM
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I'm just saying presumption is not always correct. Students is the key word I see..I am putting it ALL together in a slightly different way, that's all. Of course, I don't really care. I'm just seeing a little humor and possibility in this scenario. Maybe he will give the cd or banner away at a childrens' ward in a hospital..I don't know. I am presuming nothing. I'm suggesting other possibilities, that's all. I made a cd cover and sent some free "cds" of 12 originals to my family in new york. Maybe that's part of it too. Since he said Cd cover OR banner....he may not even know what he wants to do yet. Maybe he wants a free sample before he plunks down cash for the real thing.
I am assuming nothing at all, why would I?
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jonsparrow
1128 posts
Sep 30, 2009
10:30 PM
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haha this shit is too funny.
an for the record graphic design is an art. you have to be an artist to be good at it. any one who dosnt think so look up the college courses required for graphic design.
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2009 10:36 PM
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nacoran
207 posts
Oct 01, 2009
10:27 AM
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Maybe he could just do a White Album album cover and save even more!
Still, I don't see anything wrong with his approach. If he gets someone to do it, he gets someone to do it. He's looking for the best bid for the job. If he finds someone who will do it on the cheap more power to him. If it sucks, he got what he paid for. If it's good, it's probably someone trying to break into graphic design and they have something for their portfolio.
edit: And for the record, I went to school for English and Journalism with the idea I'd be a writer. Blogging is taking a lot of traditional high paying journalism jobs and everyone is worried about how newspapers will survive. The internet has made it easy to find someone somewhere who will do it cheaper. When there is a glut in the market that happens. All you can do is try to differentiate yourself by quality.
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2009 10:35 AM
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dfwdlg
65 posts
Oct 01, 2009
10:57 AM
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Maybe the Internet has just changed how you "pay your dues."
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Sandy88
6 posts
Oct 02, 2009
4:01 PM
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You're assuming things here. I didn't say graphic design didn't require creativity, work, or skill. The notion that any of those things are indicative of art is a misconception. It is not art, but that does not mean it can't hold value for someone. Don't be so invested in a word and just do what you like to do.
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MagicPauley57
65 posts
Oct 02, 2009
5:56 PM
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maybe you have not really understood what ART is ? wich is to admire one's creativity , work and skill ! whatver form it takes .
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RyanMortos
354 posts
Oct 02, 2009
6:11 PM
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Sandy's opinion is that it's not art. No factual statement there. One day Sandy will open up his/her mind to the art found everywhere.
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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eharp
321 posts
Oct 02, 2009
6:12 PM
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"wich is to admire one's creativity , work and skill !"
that's a fairly broad definition. i have cobbled some weird and unorthodox repairs in irrigation systems. aint nobody, nowhere gonna call it art.
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arzajac
55 posts
Oct 03, 2009
5:06 AM
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Meh!
I think this whole thing is blown out of proportion. I don't think the Band member in question thinks that *all* graphics designers should work for free; that's obvious because he mentions that he can't pay which implies that he knows the designer deserves something.
What would be a complete sign of disrespect is to hire someone for the job and then not pay them for it once it's done.
I blame the internet. Also known as the lazyweb. It costs nothing to ask. And his expectations are probably very low. He probably only needs something half-assed cut and pasted.
Also think of what you are up against. As mentioned, there are tons of free software applications available which make the task he is expecting to get done possible for any non-professional.
I face the same thing on a regular basis. I offer data recovery services and frequently encounter students or other people who simply can't afford to pay my fee. They contact me to see if they can either get me to point them to some free software which can do the job or see if I will go down on my price. I don't take it personally, I just try to understand where they are coming from.
In fact, I'm an just as happy to do a job for pocket change (or even for free) for someone who genuinely appreciates it. What really gets my blood pressure up is when I complete a task and some a-hole doesn't feel they need to pay me.
Last Edited by on Oct 03, 2009 5:07 AM
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