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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Harp Players and Music
Harp Players and Music
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Jehosaphat
357 posts
Nov 27, 2012
12:45 PM
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maybe one of the reasons is that,unlike most instruments ,you pick up the right harmonica and can play in key to any song.You don't 'need' to know any theory for that.
Then you find out about 2nd position,still don't need much theory there because even in second it's not too hard to wail away and not hit a bad note.
Basically you can go a fair way on Harp without knowing too much about music and how it's structured.
I've heard some pretty good blues players who don't know about the blue third and/or the 1 1v V.
But then again i've heard some shockers as well^
"The harmonica is easy to play but hard to master" good quote that.
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2012 12:46 PM
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Tuckster
1191 posts
Nov 27, 2012
12:59 PM
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My thoughts: I don't know about all instruments,but most of them require some basic music theory just to play something basic. Guitar has all those strings,the books tell you where to put your fingers and what note/chord you're playing. Sax-same thing. Piano Harp- you just pick it up and start playing. There's nothing to see,it's all by ear at first. If you threw some theory at me when I first started,it would have just confused me. I picked up the harp because I knew nothing about theory and thought it would be easy.I think a lot of harpers come from the same place.
As to why some players don't improve- I feel they just don't get serious about it. They don't care to put in the work required to get better. Either they're content where they're at or don't want to put the time in. I know a couple who have been playing 20 years and aren't any better than they were at 2 years.
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didjcripey
424 posts
Nov 27, 2012
1:23 PM
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Until recently there was almost no instructional material available. You had to be lucky enough to find someone who could teach you, and they had often learned 'by ear' too.
I think also that the fact it is an instrument that is played blind might have something to do with it too; its harder to visualise patterns and note relationships than it is with something you can see like a keyboard.
And surely too it has attracted many less than serious musicians. As an instrument where feeling can help compensate for lack of ability, your average punter might think its an easy option.
And lets not forget that there are plenty of crap guitarists, drummers, singers and pianists at blues jams that never get better; not knowing how and what to practice is not limited to harp players.
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Lucky Lester
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JInx
333 posts
Nov 27, 2012
1:42 PM
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My beef with harp players is the prevalence of bad intonation. So many guys miss the fact that good intonation comes from the embouchure, not the tuning table. And when these guys get all full of soul, and start wailing....good god, it just sounds awful.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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waltertore
2673 posts
Nov 27, 2012
2:00 PM
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To me it is all oness perspective on what is music. A bad harp player is no worse than a bad any player. But what is a bad player? Most players know way more theory than musicality. Theory is something anyone can learn. Being muscial is a rare thing to my ears. When I hear some one who is musical they know all they need to know. Most musicians focus too hard on theory. They think that is what musicality is about. It has nothing to do with it. If you blindly follow your musical soul all the theory you need to express what is inside with appear naturally. This takes a lifetime. No fast forward, speed up, shortcuts. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
4,500+ of my songs in a streaming format
my videos
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2012 2:06 PM
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timeistight
911 posts
Nov 27, 2012
1:53 PM
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One problem is tablature. Harp players generally think and communicate in terms of holes and breath direction, not notes. This makes a certain amount of sense for an instrument that comes in twelve different keys, but I believe it inhibits the study of music.
Another problem is that the harmonica is almost too rewarding for beginners to play; you can make musical sounds on it right from the start. No other instrument has so many people who can't play at all but think they can, the "Gusses" wailing away in the wrong key or the "intermediate" players who can't cleanly play a single note.
And lastly, it's like the joke about the dog: because he can. You can get pretty far on harmonica with very little actual musical knowledge. There's a well-respected player on the "honorable mention" list of Adam's "all-time greats" who neither knows nor cares how many notes there are between E and G. Doesn't seem to have hurt his career any.
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S-harp
79 posts
Nov 27, 2012
2:10 PM
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The diatonic harmonica ...
an instrument hard to master?
a toy everyone can play?
an accepted instrument along fellow instruments/musicians?
an outcast?
I find it gets more respect than before, but still ... outside the circle of fellow harmonica players the harmonica pretty much still is a toy and everyone thinks he can play ...
I mean, why does bands always ignore the guy waving a harp?
Because he most definately will suck.
I read an hilarious article, about some place wanting to estsblish a certificate for playing harmonica, a harplicense!
Remember that one? Was about busking, but heck, why not install a harplicense, period!
Now. THAT's a good idea!
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
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The Iceman
525 posts
Nov 27, 2012
2:22 PM
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timeistight hit most of the points pretty succinctly.
There are also the posters on these harmonica lists that like to point out that the ODBG's didn't know anything about music theory.
It all boils down to the individual, how well they play and how inspired they are to improve.
Some choose the path of listening to more recordings, memorizing more solos of others, playing every chance they can and eventually stringing the memorized solos in slightly different order or variations.
Others can spend the same amount of time learning about the language of music and where all those notes "live" in their harmonica.
I do know from interacting with many players over the years that when one side of the above equation becomes stale, it is beneficial to spend some time on the other side.
What I don't enjoy are the arguments for or against either or one of the approaches above between players...
It's all about Plateau Busting (one of my old lectures and articles for AHN).
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The Iceman
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didjcripey
425 posts
Nov 27, 2012
2:35 PM
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@KillerJoe: David Barretts stuff is excellent, and was a revelation for me when I first came across it. I understand its been around for a while, but as far as I know it was not available in Australia at least, until relatively recently.
I first picked up the harp in 1986, and at that time what was available was pretty useless, for me anyway. For example I remember one particular booklet and record about how to play like Sonny Terry. The audio sample had one of his typical complex chordy rhythmic patterns. The instruction went something like this:'try and get a feel for the percussiveness of this piece'.
In the absence of a teacher, peers or good instructional material, I made no progress until youtube came along.
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Lucky Lester
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Jehosaphat
359 posts
Nov 27, 2012
2:45 PM
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@didcripey
Yeah had that book as well.
20 years later i still can't 'do' sonny terry style.
that was one tough book.
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Frank
1496 posts
Nov 27, 2012
2:58 PM
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I think it's easy for players to get caught up in trying to be a jack of all trades but a master of none...A player can easily believe he knows what second position harmonica playing is ALL about and prematurely move to the next position, learn it half assed > so on and so an and it becomes a perpetual cycle of learnt inadequacies leading to nowhere fast other then musical incompetence. In other words a lot of players are in a big rush to accomplish becoming a mediocre player - maybe to get chicks, I don't know?
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FMWoodeye
488 posts
Nov 27, 2012
3:01 PM
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Well, I've been on both sides of this issue. I am a classically-trained musician (brass), so of course, I read music and know some theory. Back in my youth I had several instructors and played in marching bands, concert bands, pep bands, city orchestra and a couple of 5-4-4 swing bands.
In '63 and '64 (I graduated high school in '65) a kid who was learning bass and I took to playing the piano during lunch hour. We found that my sticking mostly to the black keys (which I know now formulate the blues scale) we could play pretty much any song that passed for rock and roll at that time. Gradually I incorporated some white keys for passing tones. The other kid played the bass line. We played well enough to come close to getting laid.
After I got out of the service in '68, I became a fan of Corky Siegel. Great performer. Always brought the house down.
When I bought and listened to his albums, I realized two things: The stuff he was playing was not all that technical musically and, (2) I recognized the pattern burned into my brain from banging those black keys.
I bought me a chromatic harp, then several, and worked in solitude with my Siegel/Schwall albums as my guide. I learned to play pretty much everything Corky was playing, but it just didn't "sound" quite right.
Then came You Tube, and in my quest to learn some train sounds for a song I was working on, I discovered the diatonic harp. The rest is history. I am now a legendary blues harp player. Uh...well, a damn good harp player. That is, I play pretty well. I mean, I'm not bad. Hell...I do the best I can.
I still utilize my formal training and my experience playing different types of music. Licks are everywhere. I pull some from big bands from the forties, jazz bands as well as classic rock and guitar solos of the masters.
Now, as far as some people just not getting much better, you're going to find that phenomenon no matter what method of learning is used. People have different degrees of "musicality," if that's a word.
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2012 3:05 PM
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bluemoose
827 posts
Nov 27, 2012
4:52 PM
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@FM - great post, good writing. Almost spewed my beer a couple of times trying not to laugh toooo hard! :)
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nacoran
6230 posts
Nov 27, 2012
7:30 PM
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There isn't much classical music written for harmonica (at least on this side of the Pacific) and the Jazz is usually a chromatic). While there has been material available for the harmonica for a while, when you compare it to the depth and breadth of material for other instruments, there isn't as much. I know it wasn't offered in band! That, combined with the fact the diatonic doesn't require much theory to play on your own, and the fact that most people want to sound like Bob Dylan and you don't need to learn much theory. It's also got a long tradition of being a folk (and I mean that in the Appalachia/Mississippi and even German sense, not the Bob Dylan sense. Folk music isn't usually played by the culturally elite who might have access to higher instruction.
It's also a second 'instrument' for people whose primary instrument is voice. If you want to find someone who knows less about music theory than a harp player, talk to a singer whose never learned another instrument or at least sung in a choir.
That said, theory is important, especially when you want to communicate with other band members. You can be a prodigy and play a lot of stuff by ear, but unless the other guys in the band are prodigies too, sometime you'll need to tell them how to play something, and being able to tell them to play the root is helpful.
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Nate
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STME58
299 posts
Nov 27, 2012
8:30 PM
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There is a lot of good discussion here. The harp is easy to get a melody out of, cheap, popular and portable. A zither can be cheap and is easy to get a melody out of (especially with the little paper you put under the strige to show you which strung to pluck) but it is not as cheap, portable, or popular as the harp so you don't see much bad zither playing.
I am finding I am going back to my theory as I learn the harp, circle of fifths, relative minor keys, harmonies. In fact, as I start to try to understant the harp I am understanding some of the stuff from theory better than when I took the courses.
I like watertore's post. I would rather have the musicality thatn the theory but I don't have a good command of either.
PS:
I saw this cartoon and thought of some of FMWoodeye's comments about the trombone.
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/basic-instructions-slideshow/#crsl=%252Fphotos%252Fbasic-instructions-slideshow%252F20121126-basic121126-gif-photo-050637545.html
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2012 8:35 PM
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FMWoodeye
489 posts
Nov 27, 2012
9:52 PM
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Trombone and harp have one (at least) commonality, and that is that there are limitations to solo expression from a technical standpoint. Harp has the advantage in that many people like the way it sounds whereas only musicians (mostly) like the way a trombone sounds.
I used to have difficulty improvising on "legitimate" instruments in that I think largely in images, and I would visualize the notes on a staff while playing, and this added and extra mental process and therefor a "hitch" in my playing. I play harp using what I call "tactile imagery," or maybe muscle memory. I have no problem at all improvising on harp. The bonus is that now I can pick up a trombone and play harp licks with no problem. I think we all employ different mental processes to arrive at the same goal....that is, to strive for the same goal, because just when I think I've arrived at a goal, some other player demonstrates how much more there is to learn and execute.
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daijoubu
4 posts
Nov 27, 2012
10:03 PM
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I tried to make myself learn to read music when I started, thinking that I'd not take the easy way of playing from tab on the harmonica, but after realizing how easy it is to play in a different key using tablature I find the need to learn to read music has become an intermediate skill. It makes my brain hurt to think that I'm reading a C on the music but playing an A because I picked up the A harmonica. I'd want to play in the next hole up so I could play a C when it says to play a C. Right now it seems more important to learn which relationships sound good and get good control of the instrument.
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Rob
Six Eight Time
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STME58
300 posts
Nov 27, 2012
11:26 PM
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I have noticed the same thing FMWoodeye mentions. Before I started playing harp I could not pick out a tune on the trombone without plinking it out on the piano and writing it down first. Now that I have been playing the harp I am not afraid to pick up my bone without music on the stand in front of me and play a tune out of my head. I still can not get the melody I want to come out of my trombone as easily as I can on the harmonica. I am getting comfortable enough with the trombone that I may take it to the local blues jam soon and do one set on the harp and one set on the bone.
I wonder how many classically trained players would benifit from playing harmonica. Would this help or hurt the reputation of the harmonica? Of course they may already do this but have the sense to keep thier mouth shut about it.
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2012 11:27 PM
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STME58
301 posts
Nov 27, 2012
11:38 PM
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@diajoubu,
What you experinced reading music is not different form a trumpet player who reads C and sounds Bb, sax player who reads C and sounds Eb, the french horn player who reads C and sounds F etc. It's just that those instruments are versitle enough that you don't need one in each key.
We have two old tenor saxes in this house. One of them is in C. I found out it was made in the 30's to adress this very problem for amature players who did not want to have to transpose when reading off the score with the piano player. The C sax never took off though. I have talked to a couple of sax players who say it had fundamental playability problems the Eb sax does not have.
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2012 11:39 PM
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FMWoodeye
491 posts
Nov 28, 2012
8:58 AM
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@STME58....You can take the bone to the blues jam, but, of course, you'll have to learn to play in "guitar keys" which are not universally considered horn friendly. For a while I would take a few harp licks, play them on the bone in Bb and then play them over in different keys. Doubling on bone....or primarily playing bone and doubling on harp would potentially make you more marketable to bigger bands looking to fatten up their sound.
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barbequebob
2112 posts
Nov 28, 2012
10:10 AM
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@Nacoran -- It wasn't until the 20th century that ANY classical music was ever written specifically for harmonica and it was because of Larry Adler, who is still the only harmonica player held in very high regard in the classical music community even to this very day. One of Larry's concerns was that many composers who got a copy of the note layout charts often didn't understand that some phrasings could be difficult to play or frankly impossible because of breath shifts needed to do it (blow and draw breaths).
Many harp players don't bother to learn very basic music theory, let alone sight reading skills, and is a huge mistake (theory knowledge is now more important than sight reading unless you're gonna be playing classical, jazz, or be a full time recording studio session pro), and because they don't bother, they're more easily prone to making some glaring mistakes and are unable to work their way out of them and is one of the chief complaints (and a VERY LEGITIMATE ONE at that from those who play other instruments) and that's a giant reason why people who play other instruments diss the instrument and the people who play them and players who refuse to learn it perpetuate the negative stereotype and those who are doing DESERVE to get dissed. Look how many players when taken out of 1-4-5 changes have a deer in the headlight look on the bandstand.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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colman
211 posts
Nov 28, 2012
3:52 PM
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the harmonica played by blues [black] folks was a modal african ,vocal imatator inst. ,call and responce.1-4-5...the evolution has it mixing with european theory along with jazz.this is the way i experienced blues harp 42 years ago and still play harp modal,i don`t care to go beyond modal. i have a guitar i play for doing any chord changes etc. and i know a good amount of jazz theory ,modal harp is raw and voice connected...
not chord changes,just call and responce...i like it that way.
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 3:57 PM
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CarlA
174 posts
Nov 28, 2012
4:25 PM
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I could be wrong, but its my understanding that most of the former harmonica greats knew little to nothing concerning music theory.
Junior wells DVD certainly didn't give me the impression that he had mastery of music theory, but boy could he play. His attemp at explaining first, second, and third position cracks me up. " you see, you can play this song using a D harmonica, a C harmonica, or a high G harmonica. It's the same thing, you CAN'T EXPLAIN it, you need to FEEL it" , or something along those lines. He didn't mention circle of fifths, differing modes, etc.
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Komuso
115 posts
Nov 28, 2012
4:48 PM
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I can't remember exactly where I read it but I recall Howlin' Wolf was actually taking music theory lessons in Chicago, though apparently he liked to keep it quiet to maintain the image of the self taught bluesman.
Can anyone confirm this?
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Frank
1507 posts
Nov 28, 2012
5:24 PM
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I can confirm it, without proof though - so I can't verify it...but I heard he secretly took lessons from Jr. Wells ;)
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timeistight
920 posts
Nov 28, 2012
5:36 PM
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"Can anyone confirm this?"
Yes, indeed. Wolf was illiterate into his forties, but he went to school in Chicago, first to get his G.E.D. and then to study music as well as accounting and other business courses.
The plain fact is that most of the early players didn't have the luxury to learn music in a formal sense. The fact that they could do what they did without education is more a testament to the human spirit than an advertisement for ignorance.
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Komuso
116 posts
Nov 28, 2012
6:11 PM
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@timeistight
I don't think they were ignorant at all, and I suspect a lot of the early blues players knew more about "Music Theory" than people suspect.
It may not have been to classically trained music theory standards, but their compositions and recorded output certainly display more musical knowledge than someone just sitting down and banging out a tune by ear. A lot of it may have been tacit knowledge passed on informally but some of them are pretty sophisticated, despite the appearance of simple form structure.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Frank
1509 posts
Nov 28, 2012
6:27 PM
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When music is "Your Life" your going to understand it...Music being the world they operated in - of course they knew what, why, where, when and how the blues operated musically. They were around blues music and musicians 24-7...They were the blues personified for goodness sakes, they sweated blue notes!
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Miles Dewar
1415 posts
Nov 28, 2012
7:21 PM
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Every musician I am close to had started playing their instrument in school band class. Band in school is pretty limited, being restricted to a small range of "real" instruments. Books and tabs are not as productive as having a teacher to guide you. How many diatonic harmonica teachers do you know of in the handful of towns around your house? The ones around me charge far more than the $15 for the "real" instruments.
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2012 7:24 PM
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STME58
304 posts
Nov 28, 2012
7:38 PM
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@FMWoodeye, Thanks for the tips on trombone and harp in a blues context. I am of course used to playing in F through Db but I an working on G,A and E to get comfortable with it. It realy makes me appreciate key changing on the harp.
@Miles Dewar,I asked the proprieter of the shop where my son takes saxaphone lessons where I could find a harmonica instructor and he said, "You don't need an instructor for harmonica, you just learn it out of a book." and he pointed me to the wall display with the harps and books.
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STME58
308 posts
Nov 29, 2012
9:29 AM
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@KillerJoe
To further your analogy, hopefully not to the breaking point. You need to know about passing dribbling and shooting to play a good game of basketball, but it may not help that much to know what a coefficeint of restitution is or how to calculate a ballistic trajectory.
I can calculate a ballistic trajectory and tell you exactly which launch angles and velocities will land the ball in the basket from any position on the court. Somone else can thow the ball into the basket every time and doesn't even know what a trajectory is. Which of us do you want on your team?
There are different ways of knowing things and each have their place.
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2012 9:31 AM
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walterharp
988 posts
Nov 29, 2012
11:55 AM
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I sort of sit on the fence on this one, maybe leaning off the fence toward Water Tore. Up to mid teens I took piano, and could never really get the swing of reading music (teacher asked my mom repeatedly if i needed glasses, only reason i kept going as long is she was a kinda hot red head in a ms robinson sorta way). fast forward a couple years, and though i had been messing around with harp a bit, heard john mayall and realized it could sound pretty cool, so no theory or anything just started playing all the time and did what felt good. So much more fun than lessons and books, and it was natural.
Still, I think if you are going to call yourself more than a beginner, then there is a certain amount of theory you should know, including circle of fifths, understanding positions, what a I IV V means, etc.. maybe that is a topic for another thread, in today's world, what level of musical theory would be expected relative to your rank (beginner, intermediate, expert)?
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barbequebob
2113 posts
Nov 29, 2012
12:05 PM
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In my own personal experience with more than a few of the older bluesmen, some were functionally illiterate, so they either didn't know any, or were lucky to have the intuition to seemingly know what was right and what wasn't, but I've run across quite a few that had terrific knowledge of music theory and one of the very first ones who come to mind was Louis Myers, who is better known as a guitar player on many of LW's recordings, but was also a great harp player in his own right.
With some blues musicians, like T-Bone Walker, if you couldn't sight read, you had no chance of ever being hired by him, and the down home stuff would be the wrong stuff to play when accompanying someone like him.
For far too many harp players, it's always some sort of an excuse why they the either refuse to or shouldn't and in all very brutal honesty, I compare them to people who are in heavy denial of addictions that they have, like drug addicts, smokers and alcoholics, the lame statement you usually hear from someone in blatant denial is "I can quit anytime I want," which says denial in no uncertain terms(as someone who this past October 23rd made it 40 years since my last cigarette, I like just about everyone I've met over the years who have quit have ALL said those very same words).
Besides learning basic music theory and knowing where EVERY single note is on their instruments, be it natural, bent, or with overblows, the most single common problem with harp players is the face that their time often just flat out sucks because they never think it's important and it's almost ALWAYS someone else's job, but the cold, hard fact of the matter is that it is YOUR JOB TOO as a musician and there's no excuse for not taking the time to learn this.
The fact of not knowing theory, their way around the instrument in terms of the notes, along with not learning time are ALL stereotypical things the average player falls into like clockwork and they keep wondering why musicians who play other instruments have little or no respect for them at all and they get the what I call the Rodney Dangerfield Syndrome happening to them (for those too young to know, Rodney Dangerfield was a famous comedian who made a career from jokes the revolved around the line, "I get no respect," using all sorts of situations that many people often easily related to).
From experience, most harp players who have a basic handle on theory are usually those who also play other instruments, tho there are quite a few who have never played another instrument who put in all the work necessary to learn it and have graduated from just being a harp blower to being more of a real musician.
Harp players tend too often to blame everyone else to blame everyone else for their woes, but the truth is, the person who is at fault for not learning these basic things are HARP PLAYERS themselves and if they'e not getting respect from those who play other instruments and they keep on perpetuating these negative stereotypes, then they only have themselves to blame and deserve every bit of disrespect they're getting.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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FMWoodeye
492 posts
Nov 29, 2012
12:25 PM
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Rodney Dangerfield played harp?
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waltertore
2677 posts
Nov 29, 2012
12:52 PM
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Another thing to look at is this- what do want to be as a "musician"? If you want to be a backup player, knowing theory can only help your case. If you want to be a frontman it really doesn't matter unless you feel it important. I have pretty much lived my musical life in my own universe. When I played with the old blues guys they never mentioned anything about theory. It was at most "swing in D like dog" and they would stomp their foot or just start playing and you came in. Most times they wouldn't say anything about key and just start playing. I dug that. I heard, felt, and knew what harp to play. Getting out on my own pretty quick as frontman I ran my bands the same way. If the backup guys couldn't figure what I was doing they weren't worth playing with. I still have no idea of music theory from a written/verbal standpoint. I don't know why such and such harp goes with such and such guitar chords, but I know them by sound and feel. Why would I ever want to bore myself with mathmatical garbage when I can play exactly what I want to without anything but playing the darn instruments. I don't care what others think of my musical versitilty. I dig the sounds I make and to me that is all that matters. I don't play to please anyone but myself but I sure dig it when people dig it but I will not compromise to get that because that just plain ain't no fun :-) My band roster shows some big time players dug what I do. That I will always treasure because they joined my music on my terms. Figure out who you are and it all will be a joyus journey void of self doubt and regrets! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
4,500+ of my songs in a streaming format
my videos
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2012 2:57 PM
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CarlA
176 posts
Nov 29, 2012
2:09 PM
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I think if you plan on becoming Alan Menken, music theory, and a DETAILED knowledge of it is important. I think the majority of people who play harp are content to learn a couple LW tunes, maybe play 2-3 songs at a local jam 1-2 times a month and that's it.
If you plan on becoming a full time musician/composer, etc than music theory is fair play to expect from that individual.
And yes, EVERY single harp player should know at least 1-4-5 and circle of fifth basic. You can't even select a harp for 2 position, etc without it. The rest is extraneous IMO for the "weekend warrior" musician
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daijoubu
7 posts
Nov 29, 2012
8:44 PM
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This is a very interesting discussion. I don't mean that I'd never push myself to learn theory, but at this stage in my progress, it slows it down too much and makes it less fun. If it's less fun, then I won't just pick it up and practice. When I was a teenager playing bass guitar, I could sight read. It's still there, I just am rusty and have only a vague clue where the notes are on each harmonica I own.
@barbecuebob Maybe it's that I played another instrument in the past, but I don't see how I could progress without learning how to keep time. Isn't knowing where the beat is pretty critical to playing with others?
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Rob
Six Eight Time
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mojojojo
101 posts
Nov 30, 2012
12:36 AM
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I agree that non-musician singers are often lost at gigs and deal with bands impatiently as if they are karaoke machines, giving odd cues.
Singing guitar players seem especially bad at harp. Makes more sense a horn player would be better on average, like the guy in that gary moore blues night video.
Disagree materials will help if u learn on your own and harp is first insteument...most of it wont make sense until intermediate level.
Also, it took me a full month to toot clear single notes on my own.
the pro musicians I "apprentice" with play many instruments. after harp I took Adam's advice and added piano to get a better grasp at theory. now I see how one helps the other.
theres a nice jimi lee interview with Barrett where he says at some point you just know where the changes are. there are those breakthroughs, plateaus, and frustrations. I do better with changes now when comping non-blues songs.
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I suck at harmonica!
Jakarta River Blues Band
JRB's facebook news and vidz
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barbequebob
2114 posts
Nov 30, 2012
7:45 AM
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@daijoubu -- Not just knowing where the beat is, but also something many musicians often don't learn, and that's playing on top (right on) the beat, ahead of the beat, and behind the beat, and behind the beat is the REAL blues groove and most black musics in general.
In some posts I've made on this forum, describing the harp player as too often being the dumbest musician on the bandstand in terms of knowing very basic music theory and getting their time straight is something that harp players too often don't think is important enough to deal with and they always wind up shooting themselves in the foot with this foolish way of thinking, and I've heard this phrase by musicians who play other instrument as I've stated it and often times the first guy asking to sit in with a band 80% of the time is a harp player and many musicians have this thought (and this has been conveyed to me by musicians who play other instruments), and that's "Oh God, here comes another drunk freaking a**hole who thinks he's a musician just because he blows a little harp and m aybe can bend a note." Too many players fall into that category and I just can't make this stuff up.
@mojojojo -- I know plenty of guitar players who are actually really good harp players as well as those who are horrible so I wouldn't lump them all one way. There are some situations that horns may make more sense than harp, but the BIG problem with harp players as a general rule too often is that in terms of time, theory knowledge, harp players tend to be the LEAST together musicians on the bandstand, and too often you just hear them do nothing but riffing non stop and automatically throw in a warble to hide what they can't really do. As a harp player who has been both frontman as well as a sideman, I worked in some bands that had horn sections in them and what I had to do is learn the horn charts (horn lines) for backing a guitar player in that situation, and that's not only learning to play them in unison, but also in harmony, AKA one starts off at the root note, one at the 3rd, one at the 5th, etc., plus also learning the dynamics of the line, and that's for starters and what this also takes is something that most harp players tend to lack and that's musical discipline and many harp players tend to think good musicianship is just the ability to rattle off solos left and right but that's only a small part of the equation.
I also play guitar, but I learned theory largely on my own and worked like hell to get my time straight and if you worked with some of those old black blues players, if you mess up the time, you mess up the groove, and if mess up the groove, your butt is grass and they will give you a non stop ration of s**t and deservedly so.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Rick Davis
939 posts
Nov 30, 2012
7:56 AM
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In my early 20's I enrolled full time in a local community college to study music, solely for the purpose of becoming a better harp player.
It didn't help. Make of that what you will...
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Tuckster
1194 posts
Nov 30, 2012
8:58 AM
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Does anybody think about theory when they are actually playing? How is it applied in "real time"? Out of necessity,I've learned some basic music theory. It enables me to communicate with other musicians. We can all be on the same page. But when I'm playing,I let my gut(inner voice?) be my guide. I don't think about scales or notes.
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The Iceman
526 posts
Nov 30, 2012
9:20 AM
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@tuckster
Thinking about theory........and how to apply it?
Don't lump theory as this entity over there that has to be grappled with/learned and then thrust somewhere into "when they are actually playing".
This concept of theory and learning it is self defeating and also somewhat incorrect.
Theory is not an elephant in the room waiting to be wrestled.
Theory is a way to expand your understanding of how music works. You absorb theory into your subconscious and it expands into your playing - perhaps helping you make better note choices, perhaps waking you up when you've fallen asleep during the changes so you know where you are in the flow of the music.
I don't know how much you remember about learning English in 2nd grade, but in my day we had that thick small hard cover book that covered definitions of noun, pronoun, verb, adverb, etc. Does anyone remember diagramming sentences - that line with other lines intersecting at angles to show how the words of a sentence "worked on each other"?
This was learning the theory of the English language. Us kids learned it in 2nd, 3rd grade - took the tests, memorized the definitions, etc, but now when we talk in sentences, we are not thinking "theory". We talk. We communicate. Those with a better grasp of this theory will speak a bit more eloquently or convey ideas in a clear sense.
Of course, you don't have to study English language theory in order to talk, but I would venture to say that if you do know the theory behind the words, the way you choose your words will create more powerful communication between you and the world in general.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2012 9:22 AM
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smwoerner
150 posts
Nov 30, 2012
9:50 AM
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@Iceman - Well put!
@Bob, I agree with everything you’re saying about musicianship and timing. I’ve only been playing about a year now and have spent a lot of time studying “theory.” By that I mean trying to learn different changes, memorizing the different keys and just trying to understand what is going on. I also bought a Yamaha keyboard when I first started and have now started playing some guitar.
I was at a jam last week and some friends got me up to play. One of the songs was really more of a funky guitar showcase type song and not a melody I really knew how to play. I stepped over by the base player and watched him play the first 12 bars. I recognized the pattern and started grooving and playing the base pattern note for note concentrating on the timing. For my solo I basically did the same pattern just adding some triplets, long notes, warbles, and reversing the pattern a bit (basically I bluffed it but, tried to bluff with a grove).
The really fun part was stepping back and softly playing the base line while the base player soloed. I got a cool nod and wink and damn near felt like a musician and not just a harp player.
I realize I’m at the point now where I’ve learned just enough and my muscle memory is just good enough to be really dangerous. I can get up with a group, find a basic grove and riff over the solos. I’m comfortable moving around the harp and hitting most of the bends. I think this is where a lot harp jammers kind of start falling into the “I’ll just learn more riffs and solos trap.”
Rather than working on new solos now I’m trying to learn several different base lines over standard changes. A couple of different ways to play a boogie, shuffle, swing, etc. and trying to do this over entire songs…basically mocking the base player. It’s almost an athletic endeavor to be able to play a consistent pattern making sure to hit the root note as the first note of every chord change and doing this over a song for 3 to 7 minutes. Now if I can just learn a walking base in every key on the 16 hole chrome I’ll be set :)
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barbequebob
2115 posts
Nov 30, 2012
10:05 AM
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@smwoerner -- You may want to think about doing a little of both and learning how changes work will help you a hundred fold. some people thinking just learning 1-4-5 changes as a weekend warrior is good enough, but even while I was closer to being that, I found that often times even in blues bands, you are gonna be doing tunes that aren't the standard 1-4-5 changes of the blues (even many tunes that aren't blues, but use 1-4-5 changes you have to be prepared to learn), and a common change I had to do was 1-6-4-5 and 1-6-2-5, which you often hear sometimes in jazz or doowop or blues with a decidedly jazzier feel and being prepared to handle these things are very important and too many players just don't realize the importance of being ready for just about anything.
It's a good idea learning the bass line as well as all of the different rhythm parts you hear (and there are gonna be tunes even in blues where you may hear as many as 4 different counter rhythm patterns) is important and it gets you into understand how GROOVES work and even more importantly, once you become bandleader or lead a tune, you have a knowledge of what you want o hear as well as what you DON'T want hear and theory knowledge helps you to communicate exactly what you need.
With the time issue, also learning how to count off a tune properly is important as well because if you let someone else do it, you seldom will have it exactly as you want it and if you're leading the tune, you HAVE o be together or you'll have everything fall apart and these are the kind of things that will set you apart from most of the people you tend to see at most open jams and help put you more in step towards real musicianship.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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wolfkristiansen
145 posts
Nov 30, 2012
10:20 AM
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From the other harp discussion group, posted on November 29th:
Zen Blues Harmonica
A beginner's guide to playing blues harp effortlessly
© 2007, Brian Kelly
Act without doing. Work without effort.
- Tao Te Ching
When I was a teenager, I tried very hard to play blues harmonica. I tried to copy what I heard exactly. I tried very hard, but produced only sounds that even I did not like. I failed because my effort was misplaced. Like paddling upstream. More effort did not translate into better music.
Then one night I found myself on stage with a blues harp in my hand. I had accepted a dare from a friend's band, and didn't expect them to ask me to solo. They did. The drummer and bass player were still playing. The guitar player went back to the table and sat down. I had to do something. But I didn't know where the notes were on a harmonica! I didn't even know the song.
That's when it happened. Zen. Music. Spontaneous, improvisational, full of energy. Instantaneous enlightenment. I literally learned how to play harmonica overnight by discovering the tao of the harp (way of the harp). Zen.
So what changed? What enabled me to suddenly play an instrument that had baffled me for 20 years? Zen. Which I will do my best to describe (no words can describe Zen, as they are like the hand pointing to the moon. The words are not the moon.) I had been playing bass guitar for a couple of years. We played a lot of blues. It was Zen, but I did not know it. Zen by practice. Zen by boredom (did I mention I was
playing bass)? But then like Zen, it suddenly appeared. The 12 bar blues progression. I did not count measures anymore (counting is left brain). I simply knew when the chord changes were going to happen (very right brain).
I had become one with the problem-problem-resolution structure of the blues progression. I had learned it the Zen way. An instant realization. Books and teachers must describe this structure to bring the student near it. But the names of the chords,the names of the structure, the terms, notes, language are merely the hand pointing at the moon. They are not the moon. They are not the blues. Like life, every verse of the blues tells a story. It is analogous to a story, movie, or book: Set the scene, elaborate on it, build to a climax, end (resolve). The elements of every great story.
- Brian Kelly 2007
- WalkingRidge.net
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Tuckster
1196 posts
Nov 30, 2012
10:48 AM
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Iceman Ha Ha You've dredged up some memories! From grades 1-8 I went to a Catholic school. Those nuns were English Nazis! We learned to diagram sentences frontwords and backwards. Be damned if I can remember most of it. But 45 years later, a dangling participle still bugs me.
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smwoerner
151 posts
Nov 30, 2012
11:11 AM
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@ Bob, thanks for all of the advice and these are things I’ll work on. I’m a jazz fan also so I’ve been working a little on ii-V-I and V-ii-I progressions.
I have a loop pedal that allows you tap in the timing. I’ll do this as my count in and then play a song, a base or rhythm line, or a series of arpeggios. When I play it back I turn up the drum beat which acts like a metronome so I can hear when I’m ahead or behind the beat. It’s a bit of an eye opener.
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The Iceman
527 posts
Nov 30, 2012
4:52 PM
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@smwoerner
that interplay on stage...w/bass player.
1. picking up and doubling bass. Excellent choice. (once you know where the notes are, listen to bass and try to match his note shaping).
2. Playing bass line underneath bass player solo. Excellent choice.
That real time interplay on stage between musicians is where its at...careful, extremely addictive.
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The Iceman
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barbequebob
2116 posts
Dec 01, 2012
7:42 AM
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@smwoerner -- A method of drummer of mine told me that helped him to learn how to play behind the beat, on top or ahead on a consistent basis without screwing up the time was to get a real metronome and then flip the switch on it that changes from clicking on all 4 beats to just clicking on the 2 & the 4, which is the back beat, and in most tunes in almost every genre, this is where you hear the snare drum hitting and every metronome has instructions on how to change it so needing a video to show you how becomes pointless (unless you're one of those classic alpha male types who hates reading anything carefully).
By setting it up this way, you can hear where things are much more clearly and when you put it up against a recording while listening to where the drummer is, if you hear the drummer hitting just split seconds after the click of the metronome at the exact SAME place every time, then the groove is being played behind the beat. If you hear the exact opposite happening, but consistently every time, then the groove is being played ahead of the beat. If what you hear is the drummer hitting the snare dead on with the click, then the groove is being played right on/on top of the beat. Do not confuse this with rushing or dragging the beat because what I've said here is that things are ALWAYS hitting in the very same spot EVERY single time, so that means the time is consistently on the money. However, if it's a different place even in the slightest all the time, that means the musician is screwing up the time royally.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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timeistight
923 posts
Dec 01, 2012
7:50 AM
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Bob, how do line up the metronome and the recording? If you line the clicks with a behind-the-beat snare, won't the clicks be behind the beat too?
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