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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Top-10 & Second 10 lists
Top-10 & Second 10 lists
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kudzurunner
3637 posts
Nov 19, 2012
5:31 AM
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It's that time of the year when I start thinking about revising the Top 10 and Second 10 all-time blues harp greats lists on this website. There's been some conversation on Facebook recently about the lists. One player took extreme umbrage at the fact that Norton Buffalo wasn't somewhere on those two lists. Another, Dennis Gruenling, mentioned the absence of Papa Lightfoot--a great point, and I've added him to the Honorable Mention lists.
My first thought whenever discussions (with or without outrage) occur is to remind myself why I created the lists in the first place, and to reconstruct the Top-10 list from memory, reminding myself of why each player is on the list.
I created the lists with a specific player in mind: the relative beginner, a young player (could be male or female, but I usually imagine a young man) who already knows that he wants to become one of the greatest who has ever lived and wants to know who the absolutely essential players, past and present, are. Where is the heart of the tradition? Which players would, by general consent, be considered "the greats," players without whom the past and present of the instrument and the idiom are less than fully comprehensible?
Answering this question is tricky. It requires spelling out your criteria--which I do, and which people who create these sorts of lists usually don't do. It requires adjudicating between the best of the living cohort of great players and the best of the past, very much as one would if one were creating a Top-10 all time list of baseball players. It's obvious that Babe Ruth makes THAT list, right? Joe DiMaggio, too. What about living players?
In the end, any such list has a significant element of subjective judgment. There's no way around that. Each of us has a different knowledge-set, each of us has different priorities.
Nevertheless, I keep thinking about that young, ambitious player, and I want to offer some guidance.
When I try mentally to reconstruct my Top-10 list after not looking at it for a while, I start like this. (And remember, the players I list are in no particular ranking.)
Little Walter
Big Walter
Sonny Terry
John Lee Sonny Boy Williamson
Sonny Boy (Rice Miller( Williamson
James Cotton
To me, these seem incontestable. To some other people, we're already running into trouble; they don't see James Cotton as necessarily a part of the list.
Then I add Paul Butterfield--not just for his originality (adding long fast amplified triplet streams to the storehouse), technical gifts, and feeling, but for how remarkably influential he's been on several generations who have followed. If any white player makes the Top-10 all time list, he makes it--IMHO.
That's seven players. I can remember all of them. The eighth player is a recent and controversial addition: Jason Ricci. Many would disagree with me here, and I am happy to second guess myself. Why JR and not, for example, Sugar Blue (immediately identifiable style, huge technical gift, transformative modern style), or Kim Wilson, or William Clarke? No good answer, except that JR strikes me as having all those things AND having a significant influence on the next generation.
That's eight players I can remember. Who else? I'm forced to look at the list to see who I put there. Junior Wells and George "Harmonica" Smith. Again, remember my young player in search of guidance. Who are the absolutely essential players--players who, if you leave them off the list, leave you with a significant gap in knowledge of the long history and present-day state of the tradition?
George Smith has to be there. Without him in the Top-10, the last 40 years of West Coast style, all the white greats, simply don't make sense. Clarke doesn't make sense, or Piazza, which is why neither of them can displace him from the list. Third position, chromatic.....Smith kills on both. Granddad makes the list.
Which leaves Junior Wells. To me he's the master minimalist, with, from HOODOO MAN BLUES, a unique and identifiable style....
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 5:56 AM
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kudzurunner
3638 posts
Nov 19, 2012
5:42 AM
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.....continued.........
Anyway, here's my invitation. If you believe my lists should be modified, please feel free to suggest YOUR Top-10 and Second-10 lists. Please create them with the ambitious young player in mind--the player in search of the all-time (NOT just contemporary) best. Please restrict yourself to 20 players, and please divide them into two lists. If you'd like to offer brief justifications, including two or three "must know" recordings, for one or more players (especially those whom you think might be controversial), please do so.
But please contribute to THIS thread in that constructive way. I'm not looking for generalized criticism of my lists. I'm challenging those who disagree with a few, some, or most of my judgments to put themselves in my shoes and suggest better-justified lists.
I'll just say that part of me believes that both Jimmy Reed and Howlin' Wolf do NOT belong in the Top 20. They're magnificent bluesmen, but Reed in particular strikes me as over-rated as a harp player--a sentimental favorite, and Wolf may end up in the Top 20 because of his singing as much as his harp playing.
Again, I have a hard time thinking that anybody here WON'T agree with my selections of the first five players on the list: the two Walters, the two Sonny Boys, and Sonny Terry. I hope that anybody who leaves one or more of them out of the Top 10 will explain why.
It's easy to complain or manifest outrage at somebody else's choices. It's harder to take responsibility for making considered, defensible choices. I encourage everybody here to do the latter. You may be sure that I'll be listening.
One final caveat: it's very easy indeed to come up with a dozen top living players and insist that they should dominate these lists, including the Top-10 all-time. It's hard to adjudicate between the living and the dead, and to include only those living players who have ALREADY made themselves absolutely essential to anybody seeking to understand the long and evolving history of blues harmonica. Be judicious!
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 5:50 AM
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kudzurunner
3639 posts
Nov 19, 2012
5:48 AM
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Let me add one more thing: Any player who ends up on the Top-10 list, it seems to me, MUST have an immediately identifiable style, one that any player familiar with the tradition can pick out within a few seconds. To my mind, only George Smith may lack in this department. Certainly Butterfield and JR qualify on this count. If you're unclear about this criterion, think about the greatest blues guitarists. B. B. King, Albert King, and Albert Collins: hear a few notes from any of these three players and you instantly know who the player is. Same with Sonny Terry. Trane and Bird and especially Miles. The immediate stylistic imprint. (Sugar Blue and Magic Dick both have this, as does Carlos del Junco, which is why I can easily be convinced that either of the first two could be in the Top 10, and that Carlos deserves serious consideration for the two lists.)
Finally, in answer to somebody who huffed that I had left Tommy Morgan off the honorable mention list: he strikes me as falling into the Stevie Wonder / Charlie McCoy / Howard Levy camp: a superb player--in this case, a chameleon-like generalist--who belongs on any list of great harmonica players, but can't really be considered a blues player. Am I wrong? If so, please direct me towards his blues recordings.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 6:06 AM
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kudzurunner
3640 posts
Nov 19, 2012
5:53 AM
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For those who are unfamiliar with my lists, here they are:
TOP-10 ALL-TIME:
Little Walter (Jacobs)
Big Walter (Horton)
James Cotton
John Lee “Sonny Boy” Williamson (aka, Sonny Boy I)
Rice Miller (aka Sonny Boy Williamson, Sonny Boy II)
Sonny Terry
Junior Wells
Jason Ricci
Paul Butterfield
George “Harmonica” Smith
SECOND-10 ALL-TIME:
Sugar Blue
Kim Wilson
Jimmy Reed
Carey Bell
Magic Dick
Paul deLay
DeFord Bailey
Charlie Musselwhite
Howlin' Wolf
Billy Branch
Here's the honorable mention list:
HONORABLE MENTION: A WHIMSICAL AND INCOMPLETE LIST OF EXCELLENT BLUES PLAYERS, SOME OF WHOM ARE MY FRIENDS, ALL OF WHOM DESERVE YOUR ATTENTION:
Rev. Dan Smith, Jazz Gillum, Eddie Martin, Dave Harris, Bonny B., Lyndon Anderson, T. C. Carr, Forest City Joe, Charlie Sayles, Igor Flach, Peg Leg Sam, Phil Wiggins, R.J. Mischo, Alan "Blind Owl" Wilson, Gary Primich, Nat Riddles, Billy Gibson, Billy Boy Arnold, Jerry Portnoy, Pierre Lacocque, Studebaker John, Flavio Guimaraes, Dr. Isaiah Ross, Paul Harrington, Mark Hummel, Lee Sankey, Rod Piazza, Wade Schuman, Annie Raines, Chris Turner, D.W. Gill, Jean-Jacques Milteau, John Popper, Carlos del Junco, Paul Oscher, Rick Estrin, Papa Lightfoot, John Mayall, Steve Guyger, Mikey Jr., Rob Paparozzi, Dennis Gruenling, Curtis Salgado, Greg Szlap, Rainer "Harpface" Sochting, Ben Bouman, Madcat Ruth, Joe Filisko, Wayne Rainey, Frank Frost, Johnny Sansone, Paul Orta, Slim Harpo, Doug "Joe Lee" Bush, Doug Jay, Jerry McCain, Snooky Pryor, William Clarke, Wallace Coleman, Johnny Dyer, John Nemeth, Rock Bottom, Mark Wenner, Richard Sleigh, Al Price, Dan Kaplan, Ron Sorin, Tom Ball, Jimi Lee, BBQ Bob (Maglinte), Juke Logan, Ronnie Shellist, R.J. Harman, Greg Izor, Sugar Ray Norcia, Steve Marriner, Pierre Beauregard, Michael Frank, James Harman, Roly Platt, Son of Dave, Richard "King Biscuit Boy" Newell, Fingers Taylor, Hammie Nixon, Mark DuFresne, Bill Dicey, Deak Harp, Sam Myers, Kim Field, Mitch Kashmar, Norton Buffalo, Billy Bizor, Charles Pasi, Little Sammy Davis, Steve Baker, Lester Butler, Tad Robinson, Junior Parker, John Hammond, Jr., Taj Mahal, Pat Ramsey, Paul Reddick, Grant Dermody, Paul Lamb, Bob Corritore, Gary Smith, Rey Rio, Keith Dunn, Mark Ford......
You can find my criteria here:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/blues_harp_gods.html
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wheel
111 posts
Nov 19, 2012
6:21 AM
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Hi kudzurunner. Two players you don't have in your lists (I can't claim that they must be in first two lists) that I think must be here: Jim Liban and David Burgin. Both of them influenced me a lot and both of them have very unique style and approach and very interesting in choosing material. Pierre Bourergard is also very interesting blues player with his band Powerhouse he developed a very unique approach to play horn parts with trumpet.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/wheelharp
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harpdude61
1596 posts
Nov 19, 2012
7:27 AM
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I've always taken great interest in Adam's list, but I always re-read his criteria so that my favoritism don't cloud my judgement.
I love the Top 10. The only trade I might consider would be Musselwhite for Harmonica Smith or Junior Wells, but it is so close I can't justify. Hard for me to imagine anyone not wanting Cotton on the list.
I agree about Wolf and Reed but I be damn if I know who to slide in. William Clarke and Carlos off the top of my head but if I research more I may find different.
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HarveyHarp
394 posts
Nov 19, 2012
8:01 AM
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Do yourself a favor, and check out Andy J. Forest. I don't have to say any more.
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HarveyHarp
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MrVerylongusername
2442 posts
Nov 19, 2012
8:02 AM
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Correct me if I missed someone, but I only see one woman in the list.
Perhaps Rachelle Plas deserves an honourable mention?
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kudzurunner
3641 posts
Nov 19, 2012
8:31 AM
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Harvey and Verylong: I happen to agree with both of you that Andy J. Forest and Rachelle Plas belong on the Honorable Mention list. I'm going to put them there right now--and thanks for the suggestions. But I'll add a gentle warning: I didn't start this thread with the desire to expand the Honorable Mention list. That's easy. I'm interested in knowing what sort of Top-10 and Second-10 lists others would construct.
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timeistight
900 posts
Nov 19, 2012
8:44 AM
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Here are my lists:
Top-10 Currently Active Players:
Sugar Blue
Billy Branch
James Cotton
Carlos Del Junco
Magic Dick
Rick Estrin
Charlie Musselwhite
Jerry Portnoy
Jason Ricci
Kim Wilson
Hall of Fame (Postumous appointments only)
Little Walter (Jacobs)
Big Walter (Horton)
John Lee “Sonny Boy” Williamson (aka, Sonny Boy I)
Rice Miller (aka Sonny Boy Williamson, Sonny Boy II)
Sonny Terry
Junior Wells
Paul Butterfield
George “Harmonica” Smith
Jimmy Reed
Howlin' Wolf
And I'd add David Burgin to the Honourable Mention list.
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MrVerylongusername
2443 posts
Nov 19, 2012
9:03 AM
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Both top 10 and 2nd 10 also seem to be dominated by the post war, electrified players - no criticism implied, just a slightly curious observation.
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dougharps
293 posts
Nov 19, 2012
9:09 AM
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Using the criteria about blues harmonica players, Kudzu's lists make pretty good sense to me. No argument. Jimmy Reed and Wolf were harp players who I would not see as stand alone harp greats, but whose impact was due to singing and/or song writing in addition to harp. Definitely blues greats.
If it is significant that a blues harp player must have an immediately recognizable style, and needs to have influenced many other players, what about Adam Gussow being on one of the lists? If one of his songs comes on the radio, I immediately recognize his harp playing. Adam's free videos were groundbreaking in sharing advanced blues harp techniques with many beginning players.
As someone who has played a long time and started with Tony Glover's book, I wish I had been able to access that kind of information when beginning.
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Doug S.
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Frank
1438 posts
Nov 19, 2012
9:20 AM
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Adam writes > The eighth player is a recent and controversial addition: Jason Ricci. Many would disagree with me here, and I am happy to second guess myself. Why JR and not, for example, Sugar Blue (immediately identifiable style, huge technical gift, transformative modern style), or Kim Wilson, or William Clarke? No good answer, except that JR strikes me as having all those things AND having a significant influence on the next generation.
I agree that Jason has a tool box loaded with mind boggling surprises and has access to skills that can duplicate and even outshine the harmonica integrity of Sugar,Kim or Bill's prowess. And I know this ain't about the top 10 singers or Chrome Players - but top tier singing or Chromatic ventures are sore spots for Jason, sure he easily overcomes those weaknesses with is diatonic mastery and genuine blues attitude...but If a newbie is listening to Jason's recordings, then puts on Kim's or Bills records, they are going to be impressed with not only their diatonic voice but the Vocal and Chromatic powers of these guys are surely going to perk up their ears in a really huge way!
With that said, IMO - Jason is undeniably the Champion "Harmonica Head Cutter" if push would ever come to shove for what ever reason... he has the chops that when unleashed with full inspirational intent, it doesn't really matter what instrument someones else is playing - Jason is going to steal the show!
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 9:22 AM
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bubberbeefalo
80 posts
Nov 19, 2012
10:00 AM
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I agree with timeistight to include Carlos Del Junco in top 10. His skills are staggering in my opinion.
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atty1chgo
543 posts
Nov 19, 2012
10:23 AM
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After careful thinking, another year goes by where I am in agreement with Adam's Top 10 and Second 10.
The only place I saw some daylight was in the Paul DeLay spot. Now Carlos Del Junco is a master harp player, but I think in the "Soulfulness" category he slides a bit. Sorry, but Andy Forest is not Second Top Ten. Neither are Rick Estrin or Rod Piazza IMHO.
If you want to go Active Players as per timeistight's lists, Phil Wiggins and Johnny Sansone are every bit the harp player that Jerry Portnoy is, as well as a few others. If you want to give the nod to Portnoy because he played with Muddy, fine. But Active Players categories should not let people rest on their laurels.
Musselwhite over Junior Wells? I can't believe that I just read that.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 10:42 AM
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Pluto
243 posts
Nov 19, 2012
10:32 AM
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I'll go with Adams top ten all time list with one exception. I dig Jason, but by his own admission was heavily influenced by other harp players.
With that exception Adams top ten list is consistent with players who are not a derivative of another harp player. I would instead insert Musselwhite.
The second top ten list is personal preference.
BTW, I met "Sunshine" Sonny Payne of KFFA fame a few weeks back, and he claims Aleck Miller is the 1st Sonny Boy. Go figure.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 3:47 PM
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harpdude61
1597 posts
Nov 19, 2012
11:17 AM
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Pluto..not sure I understand your point about Jason being influenced by others. Was Cotton not influenced by Sonny Boy II. Influences the player had is not a criteria. However, Jason's influence is everywhere among harps players that started in the past 10 years or so. Not all, but a significant number.
Before commenting I suggest reading Adam's criteria. Musselwhite is very close IMHO.
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Pluto
244 posts
Nov 19, 2012
11:26 AM
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Harpdude,
With all respect I disagree. I know its splitting hairs but I don't believe you can compare the influences of a young harmonica player with Cotton. (And I did read Adams criteria BTW).
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KingoBad
1204 posts
Nov 19, 2012
11:48 AM
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I agree with harpdude61, that makes no logical sense Pluto...
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Danny
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atty1chgo
544 posts
Nov 19, 2012
11:49 AM
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Hey I'm not Mr. Expert, but I must speak to comments that Charlie Musselwhite belongs in the Top Ten list of blues harp players all-time. I have seen Charlie play live more than a few times, and listened to his recordings. He is a great player and performer, and a fine gentleman, no doubt. But I haven't seen or heard him do anything that Jason Ricci has not or cannot do by far.
Same for Junior Wells. I think we can honestly say that Wells has influenced more harp players than Charlie ever did. Perhaps Musselwhite is a victim of his style, I don't know. He certainly belongs in anyone's Second Top Ten players, living or active or otherwise, and not movable from there. But he just doesn't bounce any of Adam's Top Ten. To do so he would have to pass Sugar Blue and Carey Bell (in the Second Top Ten) at a minimum, and I don't see that either. And Billy Branch for that matter. Sorry if I have offended anyone with my comments.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 11:59 AM
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tmf714
1364 posts
Nov 19, 2012
12:04 PM
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"But I haven't seen or heard him do anything that Jason Ricci has not or cannot do by far."
Really? Let me give you a few examples-
14 time WC Handy Award winner
Inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame 2010
2011 GRAMMY Nominee for Best Traditional Blues Album
2012 Blues Music Award Winner for Traditional Blues Male Artist of the Year and for Best Instrumentalist Harmonica
2011 Blues Music Award Winner for Best Instrumentalist – Harmonica AND Traditional Blues Male Artist of the Year! Also nominated for Album of the Year for The Well, Traditional Blues Album of the Year for The Well and Song of the Year for “Sad and Beautiful World”
Featured on Cyndi Lauper’s, Memphis Blues, also a 2011 GRAMMY nominee for Best Traditional Blues Album
2010 Blues Hall of Fame Inductee
2011 Living Blues Award. Readers’ Poll winner for Most Outstanding Musician award (Harmonica), for the fifth year in a row, his 9th overall Living Blues Award for Outstanding Musician.
2011 saw Charlie recognized in the DownBeat Magazine Critics Poll in both the Blues Artist category and Blues Album
2011 DownBeat Magazine Readers Poll – ranked among the Best Blues Artists and Best Blues Albums for The Well
Featured on Tom Waits latest album, Bad As Me, which entered the Billboard Top 200 Album Chart at #6 in November 2011. Charlie appears on five tracks, including the title track.
7-Time GRAMMY Nominee
27-Time Blues Music Award Winner
8-Time Living Blues Award Winner
Collaborations with Eddie Vedder, Tom Waits, Ben Harper, Bonnie Raitt, The Blind Boys of Alabama, Gov’t Mule, INXS, Mickey Hart, George Thorogood and personal friend and best man at his wedding John Lee Hooker.
Beale Street Brass Note Walk of Fame Honoree. Charlie’s marker was placed outside of BB King‘s Nightclub in Memphis, TN in 2008.
2009 Mississippi Blues Trail Marker Honoree. Created by the Mississippi Blues Commission, the Blues Trail is composed of historical markers and interpretive sites located throughout the state. Other artists honored with markers to date include fellow legends B.B. King, Bo Diddley, Howlin’ Wolf, Jimmy Reed, Mississippi John Hurt, Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson and Willie Dixon.
30 top selling albums/cd's and counting-
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 12:05 PM
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atty1chgo
545 posts
Nov 19, 2012
12:20 PM
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On the harmonica, tmf, as in PLAYING the harmonica. Obviously he has had a long and successful career. I just don't think that he is as skilled a player. It's a fair argument. In fact, I don't think that Mr. Musselwhite has EVER been as skilled a player technically as Ricci. Personal problems and youth aside. I am not trashing Charlie Musselwhite's career. I saw him a few times, and he was very good, but he didn't do much for me, and I have seen better players.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 12:23 PM
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HarpNinja
2910 posts
Nov 19, 2012
12:36 PM
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Most my favorite players are in the 2nd tier, lol. For a second I thought Musselwhite wasn't on either, but was relieved he was on the second.
Charlie matches all the criteria, but then again, so does Jason. While Charlie has a way cooler background, I didn't see commercial success as a defining characteristic.
I love Charlie Musselwhite, FWIW.
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Mike
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RyanMortos
1354 posts
Nov 19, 2012
12:36 PM
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I'm going to throw a curveball out there and say the top 20 lists are fine as is!
If a beginner buys an album from each of those 20 guys (some of which I so far have survived without) they will get a great idea of what blues harmonica is all about. If they want more they can check out the honorable mentions list or anyone else's list.
How do I know? This is how I got started learning so I know it's a good list. Theres a few guys on the second list I could see trading out for Jimmy Reed but that's just my opinion (as shared by some other enthusiasts). Maybe Jason should be on the 2nd 10 not the first & switched with someone in the second ten like Charlie Musselwhite. An interested beginner will check out all 20 & decide for themselves in my experience.
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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tmf714
1365 posts
Nov 19, 2012
12:36 PM
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Charlie must have been playing very well to garner all those accolades-so yes,you can't argue that Charlies playing earned him the success and awards he has received. It is not a defining chacteristic for the top ten,but it sure does not hurt by any means.
Just because Charlies playing may not DO anything for someone,does not lesssen his importance and the amount of respect he gets. It is well deserved-
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Frank
1441 posts
Nov 19, 2012
12:53 PM
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Shoot - Uncle Charlies legacy ain't going to be forgotten anytime soon...I'm sure he'll pass the 100 year test...After 100 years most of us will be completely deleted from the memories of this world - as if we have never lived a single day on this planet.
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TheoBurke
198 posts
Nov 19, 2012
1:25 PM
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Charlie Musselwhite deserves to be in the top five of any top ten list of all time harmonica players, in my opinion. Musselwhite was shoulder-to-shoulder with Butterfield in Chicago during the sixties simultaneously revitalizing the blues and inventing new ways of playing the blues harp. With Butter , who developed his own distinct and brilliant set of innovatiosn on the instrument, what Musselwhite was doing hadn't been done before with blues harmonica. His inventions , his phrasing, his sense of improvisation has become part of the vocabulary of nearly every blues harmonica player alive. His influence is unavoidable. What he and Butter did for the instrument was just as profound as what Little Walter or Sonny Boy had done. It is not a stretch to say that if Musselwhite and other younger blues musicians of the time weren't around preserving the blues and adding to it's musical vocabulary, the lot of us would be listening to blander music. Musselwhite is one of the untouchables.
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TED BURKE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VPUDjK-ibQ&feature=relmfu
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.co,
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 1:27 PM
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tmf714
1366 posts
Nov 19, 2012
1:53 PM
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Charlies 3rd and 4th position playing is beyond reproach-he really took that to the masses in the 80's and 90's-still doing it today.
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schaef
8 posts
Nov 19, 2012
2:49 PM
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Any list of top blues harp players that doesn't have William Clarke on is a joke!
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atty1chgo
546 posts
Nov 19, 2012
2:54 PM
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Well stated, Theo. Now tell us who from Adam's list should be bounced to make way for Charlie, so we can agree totally.
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The Iceman
513 posts
Nov 19, 2012
2:57 PM
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Charlie Musselwhite has slipped outside the usual same ol' blues shuffle groove and has embraced music outside of the narrow confines of just the blues.
One of his more recent CD's (can't remember just which one) is definitely a blues CD, but there is not one shuffle groove on it - he sidestepped this one aspect and still created a very interesting body of work.
He also ventures into world music and gospel, guesting on other's CD's and/or touring with very interesting artists - for instance, Blind Boys of Alabama and Mavis Staples.
I find him more adventuresome than most. Some of his linear ideas are very long and use the complete range of the harmonica - these are ideas that are one of a kind - in other words, he doesn't repeat them in slight variations over time.
These kinds of lists are so subjective, but fun to see where people's heads are at...
For instance, I go for the Paul deLay/Carlos del Junco players, as they re-energize my interest by approaching blues from a fresh perspective. Guess I'm more of a contemporary fan than just the ODBG stuff.
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The Iceman
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Martin
159 posts
Nov 19, 2012
3:01 PM
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The reason for adding Charlie M to whatever sort of greatness lists there are going around should primarily be that he was the first (blues) diatonic player that learned to use the entire range of the harp, all three octaves. (With reasonable skill, of course, goes w/o saying.)
That´s a serious advancement, which in a certain technical sense puts him before e.g. Butterfield (though I personally prefer Butterfield´s playing).
What I mean is that he could solo in, say, 2 pos and go coherently all the way up to hole 10. It´s kinda remarkable that this wasn´t done before, but as far as I know it wasn´t. (Prove me wrong here, if yo can, I´d be very interested.) The reason it wasn´t done is that it´s a bit hard to do it.
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TheoBurke
199 posts
Nov 19, 2012
3:21 PM
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@atty: As profound a respect and on going awe at his accomplishment as a diatonic player blues player and and his contributions to the way the instrument, I would take off Jason Ricci and replace him with Charlie Musselwhite. Jason is among the best five harp players performing today, in my opinion, but for all time time great players , Musselwhite needs to be in the top ten.Not just because of longevity, but for sheer originality in style--without his open-ended improvisations and sheer fluidity (matched only and perhaps surpassed by Butterfield's skill) and his experiments in playing in uncommon positions and keys, Musselwhite was one of the very few players who was there first when the revolution in blues techniques started; he is a man who saw his avant gard experiments influence several generations of younger players. His accomplishment and influence is clear and very profound.
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TedBurke
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VPUDjK-ibQ&feature=relmfu
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.co,
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atty1chgo
547 posts
Nov 19, 2012
3:44 PM
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@ Theo Burke - your well written posts on Charlie Musselwhite are well taken and considered. CM has had a storied career.
But consider this. The main point of your argument, if I may attempt to distill it, is that Jason Ricci is one of the TOP 5 playing today, but that he hasn't had the career or longevity of Charlie Musselwhite, so therefore he is not a Top Ten great. OK, let's look at that for a moment. If we take timeistight's Active list above, a strong argument could be made that CM does not make a current best top 5 list. He is just NOT as a dynamic player than he once was, with all due respect. I wish Jason Ricci a long and happy life, but if he were not around tomorrow, according to your reasoning he should never be Top 10. Jimi Hendrix had a short career as well, but no one questions his credentials due to brevity of career. If Jason Ricci is good enough to be Top Five RIGHT NOW, in a list which includes (arguably)
Sugar Blue
Billy Branch
James Cotton
Carlos Del Junco
Magic Dick
Rick Estrin
Charlie Musselwhite
Jerry Portnoy
Kim Wilson
then he is Top Ten All Time in my book.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 3:46 PM
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RyanMortos
1355 posts
Nov 19, 2012
3:59 PM
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How about abolish the top 10 & 2nd 10 lists & make it a top 25 unordered list?
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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NiteCrawler .
209 posts
Nov 19, 2012
4:10 PM
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As Shaef said,Wheres Big Bill Clarke?
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Jehosaphat
347 posts
Nov 19, 2012
4:32 PM
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Can't understand why Bredan Power isn't there somewhere?
Got the chops to play anything,versatility plus.
Done a lot for the advancement of the Harmonica etc etc.
At least on the honourable mention list instead of John Mayall.To my knowledge he hasn't played any decent harp since the Bluesbreakers album.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 4:36 PM
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kudzurunner
3644 posts
Nov 19, 2012
4:36 PM
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I thank the many who have weighed in so far. I'm amazed at how collegial the disagreements are.
One key point concerns Charlie Musselwhite. TMF has cited a long, long list of accolades. To my mind, those are the fruits of a long, impressive career, but they are almost completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. It hardly needs pointing out that virtually none of the African American players who make their way on that Top-10 list ever got ANY formal accolades of that sort.
What counts, finally, is how the player rates in OUR estimation. We're a cohort of informed, contentious, passionate, and thoughtful blues harmonica aficionados. Charlie won 13 Blues Music Awards in a row, which means, I suppose, that Kim Wilson just wasn't a great player during those years. Not. We should judge without fear or favor; the whole point is to get beyond popularity contests.
So let's argue one point and one point only: whether Musselwhite deserves to displace Butterfield in the Top-10. Clearly any argument to that effect would point to Musselwhite's much longer career (a result of his ability to stay alive rather than ODing in the mid-1980s), his unusually wide-ranging take on the blues--his truly impressive body of work.
Those arguing for Butterfield would argue that longevity means little in the blues; Little Walter and John Lee Williamson both died in their late 30s, younger than Butterfield. They might add that Butterfield, too, had a wide-ranging imagination; EAST-WEST still stands as an amazing experiment. Some might argue that Musselwhite's solos are somewhat more patterned, somewhat less fluid than Butterfield's.
I'd argue all the things on both sides that I've just mentioned. The reason that Butterfield rises above Musselwhite, for my money, is primarily the matter of influence: I believe that his audible influence on the harmonica world of today is far more noticeable than Musselwhite's. It's as pointed as the influence of the two Walters. Jason Ricci, Rob Paparozzi, Norton Buffalo, Pat Ramsey, Mark Ford, a handful of other NYC players (including me): the long swooping triplet runs that Butterfield pioneered (IMHO) show up everywhere. Great and accomplished a player as Musselwhite is, I'm not sure that his influence on other players has been as profound as Butter's. That was my rationale, in any case, for putting PB in the Top 10 and CM in the second 10. They're both great and important players, and I would insist that any your harmonica student pay attention to them both.
Bill Clarke is in the second 10. He's very much in the Top 20. He was one of the great ones. I saw him live three or four times. They were memorable performances.
I like Timeistight's way of reorganizing things. I'd probably expand the "living 10" list to 15, or maybe even 20.
I put Brendan Power in the same beyond-categorization category as Howard Levy, Chris Michalek, Stevie Wonder. Of course he can play blues--as Howard can play blues!--but it's certainly not his main thing. Still, I'll bite. Make your claim concrete rather than abstract. Please point me towards two or three of his best blues recordings.
A final note about singing: to paraphrase and invert Simon on AMERICAN IDOL, "This isn't a singing contest!"
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 4:45 PM
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tmf714
1367 posts
Nov 19, 2012
5:04 PM
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I will take a stance on my own post-at the risk of being crass-
"But I haven't seen or heard him do anything that Jason Ricci has not or cannot do by far." was posted by atty-
My response promted the list of Charlies accolades-
No where in atty's post did it mention anything about playing-just that he had not heard or SEEN-Charlie do anything that Jason had not done,or could not do.
The list includes items that Jason has not done-simple as that- read into it what you want-to the point of playing the race card,as Adam frequently does when posts here don't go the way he likes-it never fails-I have seen him do it here countless times.
It is your list Adam-do what thou wilt-but in the big scheme of things,your little "list" is totally meaningless-its an irrational , at times even ricidulous waste of time,but carry on if you must.
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TheoBurke
200 posts
Nov 19, 2012
5:22 PM
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@atty: It's a matter of taste , of course, but I was using ,or trying to use, Adam's criteria: "...immediately identifiable style, huge technical gift, transformative modern style ..." . While I think Jason satisfies those , he gets bumped in favor of Charlie because Charlie has substantially more time on the planet as a player, and that his contributions have influenced, over time, a great many other younger musicians, at nearly two full generations worth. A generation generation being a 25 year period. Although Jason is, in my regard, one of the best 5 players currently blues harmonica players currently gigging, he is a young man, still growing, innovating, in his prime, but bumped down a notch on the criteria above. This is a "all time greats" list, not a best of list. Charlie moves on UP to the top 10 all time great list by the sheer gravity of his innovations and by his seniority.
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Ted Burke
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VPUDjK-ibQ&feature=relmfu
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.co,
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 5:25 PM
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The Iceman
515 posts
Nov 19, 2012
6:00 PM
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There is no denying Jason's talent, drive, abilities. However, I find that he doesn't pass my personal "extended listening" test like Charlie Musselwhite does.
What I mean by this is that, going to a live Charlie Musselwhite gig and listening to him play for an hour will leave me wanting to hear more.
I've seen Jason live a few times and after about 25 minutes my brain shuts down from harmonica note overload. Like eating a piece of "Death by Chocolate" chocolate cake, I don't want any more chocolate for a long time is how I would describe this feeling.
So, does this "extended listening" quality factor into anyone's qualification on including a player on a list?
(In all fairness, Howard Levy also gives me sensory overload after about 1/2 hour of his playing - except when he really slows down and does that wonderful double stop slight of tongue).
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The Iceman
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schaef
9 posts
Nov 19, 2012
6:22 PM
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I get that same feeling from sugar blue.
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atty1chgo
548 posts
Nov 19, 2012
6:24 PM
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@tmf - Of course, Charlie fans will be upset if he is not in there, or the fan of anyone else for that matter. We have a difference of opinion. Let's just leave it at that. I beg to differ, a list is just that - a list. Open to debate. It is not a perfect exercise. But it has value in terms of determining the best of those among us in a particular area. You have just taken it a bit too personally I feel. But that's OK, we are all God's children.
As far as playing the race card, that's just not an accurate observation. If anything, I point out what I observed at last year's Blues Cruise 2011, where more white fans would go to Charlie Musselwhite's shows than Billy Branch's shows. More white fans went to see Jimmy Thackery than Bobby Blue Bland and Bobby Womack and the black acts. The same thing this year with Bobby Rush as against Shane Dwight or some others. It was very obvious to me. Is that because the white artists were better? No, absolutely not. That Jimmy Thackery would draw more than Billy Branch was certainly not because Thackery is anywhere near better - he isn't. It is a benign racial preference, sometimes obvious, sometimes low-key, but which also permeates, I feel, the judging process for awards. Or at least it has in the past. Not that I noticed racist fans, that wasn't it. But there are a certain body of white fans that either consciously or otherwise prefer white artists. It is not always present, but it persists.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 6:25 PM
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schaef
10 posts
Nov 19, 2012
6:43 PM
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@atty1chgo Thackery is a guitar play, how are you comparing him
To billy branch? Also what was the percent of black fans on the cruise?
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 8:54 PM
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Michael Rubin
696 posts
Nov 19, 2012
7:16 PM
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I have restricted my choices to blues players. My choices are based on innovation but also on popularization of innovations. Sheer technical mastery counted for a lot as well. Then, some of it is w For example,even though Howling Wolf was a great harp player who was popular, I do not believe he was all that influential or innovative. After a while, most of these names were of people who have influenced me directly.
Little Walter
John Lee Williamson
Rice Miller
Big Walter Horton
Sonny Terry
George Smith
Jimmy Reed (like him or not, he popularized 1st position high note blues)
Paul Butterfield
James Cotton
Charlie Musselwhite
11-20
Junior Wells
Billy Boy Arnold
William Clarke
Sugar Blue
Kim Wilson
Rick Estrin
Rod Piazza
Paul Delay
Carey Bell
Jason Ricci
Let's go for 30
Jazz Gillum
Magic Dick
John Mayall
Jerry Portnoy
Paul Oscher
Snooky Pryor
Jerry McCain
Howling Wolf
Norton Buffalo
Slim Harpo
to 40
Taj Mahal
Mark Ford
Carlos Del Junco
Billy Branch
Gary Primich
Blind Owl Wilson
Sam Myers
Mark Hummel
Annie Raines
Dennis Gruenling
To 50
Joe Filisko
James Harman
Richard Newell
Lester Butler
Steve Guyger
Phil Wiggins
Sugar Ray Norcia
RHythm Willie
George Lightfoot
Madcat Ruth
To 60
Tom Ball
Adam Gussow
RJ Mischo
Rob Paparozzi
Ronnie Shellist
Johnny Sansone
Gary Smith
Paul Orta
Walter T. Higgs
Doug Jay
To 70
Dave Wellhausen
Hook Herrera
Jim Liban
Pierre Beauregard
Andy J. Forest
Johnny Dyer
John Nemeth
Mason Casey
Brandon O. Bailey
Jay Gaunt
To 80
LD Miller
Westside Andy
Eugene Huggins
Big Bones
Keith Dunn
Charlie Sayles
Little Mike
Rock Bottom
Jose Ruiz
Juke Logan
To 90
Greg Izor
Richard Sleigh
Jimi Lee
Guy Forsyth
JJ Jameson
What's amazing to me is how quickly I burned out naming players and I have been obsessed with harp for 27 years.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 7:28 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
82 posts
Nov 19, 2012
8:21 PM
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Man, I'm lovin' this. I listen to and steal licks from most of these greats, but my favorites are nowhere to be found. I wonder if the licks I'm stealing from them might sound "original" to most everyone else?
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kudzurunner
3646 posts
Nov 19, 2012
8:21 PM
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Whew! You've given us a lot to think about!
Jimi Lee is just about the greatest rack harp player period: the goat (greatest of all time). I think he needs to be moved up.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 8:23 PM
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BeardHarmonica
156 posts
Nov 20, 2012
3:45 AM
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schaef "Any list of top blues harp players that doesn't have William Clarke on is a joke!"
+1 from me
Also I like the idea of a hall of fame/top active player list better.
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Michael Rubin
697 posts
Nov 20, 2012
5:31 AM
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Alright I'll move Jimi up.
Top 90
Greg Izor
Jimi Lee
Richard Sleigh
Actually, your comment makes me want to create 4 lists and really think them through. Most influential, best technique, most innovative, personal favorites. We'll see if I find the time to work them out.
Okay, here's my pick for most influential and I added around 5 players:
Little Walter
John Lee Williamson
Rice Miller
Big Walter Horton
Sonny Terry
George Smith
Jimmy Reed (like him or not, he popularized 1st position high note blues)
Paul Butterfield
James Cotton
Charlie Musselwhite
11-20
Jazz Gillum
Junior Wells
William Clarke
Sugar Blue
Snooky Pryor
Kim Wilson
Magic Dick
Norton Buffalo
John Mayall
Rick Estrin
To 30
Rod Piazza
Paul Delay
Jason Ricci
Slim Harpo
Billy Boy Arnold
Carey Bell
Blind Owl Wilson
Jerry McCain
Howling Wolf
Jerry Portnoy
To 40
Paul Oscher
Taj Mahal
Mark Ford
Carlos Del Junco
Madcat Ruth
Mark Hummel
Annie Raines
Dennis Gruenling
Billy Branch
Gary Primich
To 50
Adam Gussow
Joe Filisko
George Lightfoot
Sam Myers
James Harman
Ronnie Shellist
Juke Logan
JC Burris
Richard Newell
Lester Butler
To 60
Steve Guyger
Phil Wiggins
Sugar Ray Norcia
Rhythm Willie
Mitch Kashmar
Tom Ball
RJ Mischo
Rob Paparozzi
Jimi Lee
Johnny Sansone
To 70
Gary Smith
Jim Liban
Andy Just
Richard Sleigh
Paul Orta
Walter T. Higgs
Doug Jay
Dave Wellhausen
Hook Herrera
Pierre Beauregard
To 80
Andy J. Forest
Guy Forsyth
Johnny Dyer
John Nemeth
Mason Casey
Brandon O. Bailey
Jay Gaunt
LD Miller
Westside Andy
Eugene Huggins
Big Bones
Keith Dunn
Charlie Sayles
Little Mike
Rock Bottom
Jose Ruiz
Greg Izor
JJ Jameson
Connor Frontera
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2012 6:02 AM
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The Iceman
516 posts
Nov 20, 2012
6:01 AM
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startin' to look like a list of every professional harmonica player out there...
how about European ones? Michel Herblin, JJ Milteau?
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The Iceman
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