At Ziggies last night Dan compared two amps: My 1953 Masco ME-18 and his Sonny Junior 410 amp. It is an interesting study in contrasting tones.
The SJ amp sounds like a lot of Bassman-type amps: Smooth and strong; not a lot of crunch. The Masco, because of it's more primitive cathode biased circuit, crunches happily along. At 20 watts it does not get the big thump of the 410 but it sure gets more color.
For you guys who love tube amp distortion (like I do) this is about as good as it gets.
Love it - as you'd expect. @ around 2:00 you title : "back to the masco" then @ 3:27 Dan turns down the 410 and you title "more masco' - Did you title that wrong? Of course I should be able to ID them blindfold - but it is an internet video. That section does sound a little fuller-ballsier {more bass} whereas "more Masco" at the end is more compressed-sustained- singing tone, as it is when he first plays the Masco.. Somewhat more mid>treble distortion than {what I think is} the 410. Both sound really good - in different ways. Like my Bassman vs my Gibson GA6 {when it's not on the bench} - and others.
My guess is that the 410 would come more into it's 'glory' at louder volumes than is being played here {do you know what settings he had it at?} - the Masco mic'd is is cranked just right for the setting. I assume the 410 is not mic'd ----------
Slick...So you can hook it up to whatever speakers you want to within reason I suppose...The 3rd pos playing with the tighter cup and seal to the face really brought out the beast in that combo!
Wow i really enjoyed that..the man can sure lay a great groove down. To me the Masco 'won' hands down,it really sings and has just the right amount of crunch.
Would anyone care to venture an opinion comparing vintage Masco amps to vintage Premier amps having similar wattages?
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2012 2:31 PM
The sonny jr needs more volume but that is fair it shows the weakness of a great amp not being driven hard enough. Still sounds good though.
The masco does sound great here. They are tone machines when running well.
Speaking of masco I'd love to get a chance to play wezo amp. Which draws alot on the bogen/masco tone. One of those amps that doesn't get nearly the coverage of other amps.
I think playing the mission vs a wezo vs a bassman like amp would be an interesting comparison.
As to premier vs masco idk I really like the twin 8
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2012 3:05 PM
I was always highly impressed with the Epiphone Lady Luck speaker you use. It's possible it has a lot to do with the tone your getting . I have often thought I would pick one up if the opportunity arose. It makes many amps sound better.
I lent my Super Sonny Jr to Tad Robinson at an outdoor fest a few years back. I never played it at a big venue, so I rarely had it past 3 on the volume. I didn't set it up, just left it on stage. Walking around the park during his performance, I'd have to say it sounded terrific. When I played it the next day I checked his settings, couldn't help noticing that he had dimed (actually 12) the volume, and the stage crew had micd' it to the soundboard. I think most big amps need to be pushed for full effect.
@rbeetsme-Agreed-especially if you line-out the Sonny Jr.-if I played and set up Dans Sonny Jr,it would level that Masco-there are a few tricks to getting ultimate output from the Sonny Jr.
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2012 3:50 PM
@rbeetsme Yeah i am finding that with my Deville ..it dosen't really get a fat sound(with what i am driving it with) until its on 4 and verging on feedback.Its around then that the power valves seem to kick in rather than just pre amp distortion.Great sound but i not too sure,yet, how it will handle a real life situation.
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2012 3:56 PM
They are completely different amps. Personally, I would not try playing a Masco in a club setting (esp a jam), unless I had time to set it up and dial in the PA.
When the music gets loud, fighting feedback with a Masco become a problem for me. I love my Sonny Jr.
I've been trying to stay the hell out of these things but I think a couple of things need to be pointed out. Although the Masco does sound great, as well it should being one of the classic harp amps, and Dan is an excellent player there are factors which make this a bit of an apples and oranges comparison and somewhat misleading in the stated conclusions.
What is most obvious is a rather large difference in volume. Why that is happening is hard to tell. As bonedog poins out the Masco/Epi is mic'd. The SJ does not appear to be. That may or may not be relevant if the recording mic is on the camera and positioned behind the PA speakers. Even if the recording mic is not picking up the PA it is nonetheless directly in front of the Masco/Epi while the SJ is off to the side and angled away with Dan standing in front. Having said that to me it sounds like the SJ just wasn't turned up anywhere near where it needed to be to match.
The 410 is an older model which SJ improved on with later renditions but if the 410 has similar versatility to the later Cruncher and the Avenger the settings and how it is being used are important. I know from my own experience just bridging the channels makes a great difference in crunch and cut even at low volume. I've never felt either of my SJs remotely lacked for crunch or color, and BTW I've owned a couple of Mascos as well. As Rick himself says, we don't know where the volume or anything else was set.
Simply food for thought in the discussion which I will now and forever exit from. ---------- LSC
Yes, the jam was not overly loud at this point. Dan admits he had the SJ amp kind of low. The Masco was in the PA mix but just barely.
I think the only thing this video shows is what I wrote in the OT: Big Bassman type amps are generally less crunchy, especially at lower volumes, but they are smoother with more thump. When I posted this on FB one person asked me which amp I thought was better: I said I could not make a choice. I own a Bassman and the Masco (though not any more) and I love 'em both.
There has been some chatter lately here on this forum about how to get tube amp distortion. I thought this video might be a good demonstration of that. Two great sounding amps with very different levels of distortion.
The virtue of the Bassman is in its huge tone and power. A pro harp buddy of mine is fond of saying, "Big amps make you work harder." I think he means you can't really rely on the hardware to make all those cool noises like the Masco. You gotta make 'em yourself.
It's not a contest, guys. It is an interesting comparison.
The amps were nearly equal distant from where I was standing, with the SJ maybe a foot farther away. They were both pointed right at me. I was standing close to the stage between the PA speakers so I wasn't getting a lot of the FOH sound. I plugged Dan's Senn 609 mic into the PA and adjusted the levels straight up, half way, on the level and trim in the channel. I was unfamiliar with the mic so I don't think much got into the mains. I could not hear it.
The recording exaggerates the difference in levels, I think. I could hear the SJ just fine. It was at a level some players would use in that situation. Others might turn it up. It was not buried in the mix at all.
Dan set the levels on both amps himself. In the next jam set I got up and played the Masco, which seemed just right. I could not hear it in the monitors at all.
At least 15 people (I am not kidding) asked me what kind of amp is that I was playing. I got back up on the stage and gave the amp its own intro.
yeah, the ole PRIMITVE CATHODE BIASED CIRCUITS... MAsco's rule...when you dial em in. We seem to be "playing" our craft to the 10% who actually know good tone...when they hear it. The SJ Cruncher, Avenger, and even an odd ball SJ project (no name) with a (12X10X8). A friend/player owns here in Honolulu. Too warm, no crunch, no highs, etc etc...or just not enough experience with setting it up(room size). Why doesn't Sonny make one for small venues? Bigger amps need to be opened up to get a noticeable level of crunch. The Masco in the clip sounded great... Other than that, Bassmans, SJ's, or anything, at low volumes I have experienced little...Which is why I target my gear to smaller venues. Hence, the low wattage Kalamazoo One(1)EL84 =(5 watts), or an Admiral(2)EL84's =(10 watts), and Princeton (1X10)(2)6V6 =(12watts). These have plenty of crunch and are easily mic'd through the PA. I can't overstate the value(to me)of the Sennheiser 609e. It has given me more control over my tone. And placing me in the mix/mains and monitors. My playing has gotten better, as I can hear myself much much better now. Hey, us baby boomers are all going deaf, no? It's true, we need to hear ourselves...especially on stage while competing with the others. I recently have experienced a whole new level of playing...due in part to being able to hear myself, without straining. It becomes a horrible mush with zero dynamics... All my bigger amps (Masco MA17, and Bassman RI) are just sitting in my apartment waiting patiently for that BIG VENUE...boo hoo, toooooo bad. The others are fun, easy to lug around, and have enough TONE and crunch. But nobody cares really...but me. I suppose I have had a few compliments, mostly from fellow musicians who know good tone when they hear it. While the other 90% of the masses have no clue.
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2012 5:48 PM
Jehosephat (great name, btw) I have re-thought how I set up my amps. I now set the volume on the amp as high as I can and then adjust my volume on my mic. It all depends on what I'm playing, but getting the amp to percolate is the goal.
"Why doesn't Sonny make one for small venues" Because tone has nothing to do with the size of the amp-all of Sonnys amps are super versatile with tube swaps,the first true line-out harp amp,crystal modded mic inputs,paper in oil caps-it all helps. But true tone comes from YOU-the amp just helps get it out to the audience.
MN- He is Dan Solem, a very good local player. He is a pilot for a major airlines. In fact, I know two good harp players here in Denver who are airline pilots.
Two additional notes: The next night after the video was done at Ziggies Dan took the Masco rig to a jam at another venue and had feedback issues. I'm pretty sure it was related to the mic he had on the amp and its proximity to the floor monitors. But you just never know. Feedback is a demon that lives in the air.
Joe's comment about comparing a 410 Bassman-type amp to the Mission 32-20 got me thinking. I'll try and do a video comparison of my Mission amp and my Bassman RI this week. It should be interesting. Not which amp is "better" but just how they differ. Since I won't be using an SJ amp all the SJ owners and fans won't need to get all defensive about it.
The clip above proves, "But true tone comes from YOU-the amp just helps get it out to the audience.", wrong. I hear two very different tones from the same player in the same song. If it was really just about YOU, he'd have sounded the same, within reason.
This doesn't mean that the SJR can't do crunchy, or whatever, but the amps in this context sound different...and I am not just saying the 10-20% that we lose in fidelity of recording gear.
I'd love for someone to post clips of a SJr sounding crunchy. Double true if it means crunch at low and high volumes. I've hear about the tube swaps, but haven't heard examples of them. I mean this genuinely.
Based soley on this clip, what I've heard of Bassmans before, and what I've heard of the SJr's before, I'd want the Masco tone, but would take the SJr as it would let me do more stage monitoring before feedback. The volume before feedback is more important to me than the overall tone.
I guess, I'd want to compromise and get a Mission, lol.
I posted in another thread, several really, that a Double Trouble was my favorite live and recorded tone. The problem was it couldn't hold its own with a loud band, so I went straight to PA instead. I could have stuck with a larger amp like a HG50, but they are too loud and heavy. ---------- Mike OOTB Harmonica Price List VHT Special 6 Mods Note Layout Comparisons Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas (Updated 10/25/12)
@HarpNinja-"The clip above proves, "But true tone comes from YOU-the amp just helps get it out to the audience.", wrong. I hear two very different tones from the same player in the same song. If it was really just about YOU, he'd have sounded the same, within reason." I beg to differ. What you are hearing is two differing levels of volume-the Masco is miced and the Sonny Jr is not-Dans tone remains consistent throughout-the Masco may have a little more "crunch",but the tone from Dan is the same through both amps. My Sonny Super Cruncher gets it at any level-I will post from the Beach Shack jam this Thursday.
Sonnys amps favor crystal mics with a tight cup-I use CR,CM and crystal mics-but the Super Cruncher has a modded input for the crystal mic that really works. I do not use the Kinder AFB+ with this amp. I use a Boss RV3 digital delay w/reverb.
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2012 11:28 AM
Same guy, same harp, same song and I hear two different sounds. I've played enough live to know that 1.) bumping up the volume on the SJr 3-6dB from where it is at probably won't give that same crunch, 2.) the eq of the SJr. could be enough to make it sound quieter, heck, it may just sound darker due to the recording.
If you truly believe that the only difference in tone if from volume, you are in denial. There is nothing to defend besides. No one said the SJr can't get crunch like that. In that clip, though, there are two different tones and I can hear the difference.
Regarding your edit, that is just more proof that gear does matter and sounds different.
If I use the right mic at the right settings with the right tubes in the right position I get a certain sound. If I use a different mic with different tubes at different settings with a different position, I get a different sound.
Same player, same mic, same harp, same song...
***If gear didn't matter, it wouldn't sound different. I sat at home with the exact same gear trying to find a sound I liked and just by switching knobs I had a huge change in sound...same player, same mic, same harmonica...hell, I even played the same riffs. ---------- Mike OOTB Harmonica Price List VHT Special 6 Mods Note Layout Comparisons Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas (Updated 10/25/12)
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2012 11:32 AM
Volume has nothing to do with tone-they are two distinct and seperate sounds.
You can get the Sonny Jr to bark-as my friend Mike Bram-drummer for Jason Mraz-can attest to,as well as thousand s of other Sonny Jr owners. If you mic the Sonny Jr,get a crystal mic and proper cupping tehcnique,beleive me,that thing can rip.
You even state yourself-"I hear two different sounds"-correct -not two different tones. To me tone is ont subjective-You have it -or -you DONT.
You make no sense. Seriously, what you are saying makes no sense.
I hear two different TONES from each rig.
tone? ?[tohn] Show IPA ,noun, verb, toned, ton·ing. noun 1. any sound considered with reference to its quality, pitch, strength, source, etc.: shrill tones. 2. quality or character of sound.
"To me tone is ont subjective-You have it -or -you DONT."
This also makes no sense. Every player has tone.
I don't give a shit about any of these amps beyond the fact that they sound different in the video. What I can conclude from this clip, as it is, is that gear has a very noticeable impact on the sound of the harmonica.
Gear has no impact on tone-you have to have good acoustic tone before you have good amped tone.
You are confusing distortion and volume with tone-one has nothin to do with the other-
All players have some tone-but great tone like Kim,Rick ,Charlie and the like comes from deep inside-ever check out their acoustic tone? They all have killer acoustic tone.
If you don't get it by now,you never will-some search for tone in amps,mics and custom harps-it comes from none of these-it comes from the player and his approach to the instrument. P.S. -I only edit for errors,or to add releative subject matter.
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2012 11:56 AM
Define tone...not an example, but a definition. Tone is something you hear. I hear two different tones in the sample clip. I hear a sound, then I hear a different sound.
If I was playing guitar and stepped on an overdrive pedal, you'd hear two different guitar tones.
I get it, but I am not sure you do. Let me be really specific. If a player with crappy tone played the Masco as it was set and then the SJr, it may not sound "good", but both amps would give a different sound. A great player played both amps and the tone heard by my ears was different in both.
Tone=quality of sound....as in timbre(edit: not quality of sound as good or bad). I hear two different tones as a result of a change in timbre of the player switching amps. If gear didn't matter, then why would you even own a SJr. Why wouldn't you just play straight to the PA?
Amp, mics, and harps all impact tone. That is 100% true. The person playing and their tone also impacts tone.
Try this:
Take your favorite recorded tone of all time. Now push the stereo until the speakers clip...sounds like ass. Now turn it back down to sonic bliss. Now, play with the EQ. Turn the treble all the way off. Sounds like mud. Now turn the mids way up....cuts your head off. Now turn the bass up until it knocks you over...
Your ideal sound can easily be made to sound like crap. Heck, I'd argue that with the right gear you can get shit to sound pretty good too. For example, listen to pop music, lol. You could fart into a mic and make it a symphony in a studio.
By your argument the real badasses are the guys playing acoustically to a PA, because they are enlightened enough to know that things like mics and amps are a waste of money...you sound the same just grabbing a vocal mic and going with it.
Which would be sweet, since that is how I play almost all the time now. I don't even own an amp, and I am having a hard time bonding with a "blues" rig right now.
" By your argument the real badasses are the guys playing acoustically to a PA, because they are enlightened enough to know that things like mics and amps are a waste of money...you sound the same just grabbing a vocal mic and going with it"
NO-what I AM saying is Kim,Rick and Charlie have great acoustic tone that translates directly to their amplifield tone-they all will usually play a few songs during the set throug the vocal mic,but the rest amped. Kim through two DeVilles linked,Rick through a 6x10 HarpKing and Charlie through a Sonny Jr. Why argue if you don't played amped? What is your agenda?
I prefer an amp mic combination where you can whisper into it and it responds quickly and precisely! ...And that for me starts with a HOT mic and ends with a good tube amp. And I prefer if it's a bassman type amp to start off playing with all the controls on 12 except the volume of course.
A responsive combination is inspiring to play through because it is easier for me to focus on the music. Where if the mic and amp combo seems unresponsive to me I'll surely be thinking to myself that I don't like this setup and I prefer not to fidget with shit to try and get it to be something it really wasn't in the first place...
So I may sound basically the same to the average listener even though I switch amps- BUT I can sense or feel when a combination just doesn't suit me and the enjoyability factor of playing goes down drastically for me when I don't like what a particular amp mic combo is producing according to my preferences.
So even though I am the actual originator of my tone - it's coming from me before it hits the mic etc, the equipment does effect how I FEEL my tone "in my bones" as a total unit(me,the mic and amp) and I need to feel a hot and responsive tone in order to be satisfied with what I'm hearing too.
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2012 1:23 PM
I think that the Sonny Jr 1 was based on the Masco circuit.I have a prototype SJ1.It has a masco amp mounted in a bassman cab,4 8"s.I have a problem knowing which model it is because it has worn off. Rick,is the model # inside the amp as well as the outside.
Forget the amps, mics and PA systems for a moment. Think in terms of just the player and his harp.
The notes come from the harp, but the TONE – the deep, rich texture of the sound comes from the player.
Now, AMP it up. An amp is more than a loudness machine. A mic is more than a sound picker upper.
If amps and mics didn’t enhance YOUR tone to create an overall better sound, then all of the discussions about amps and mics we chatter about are meaningless. Of course, your amplification process makes a difference.
I like a deep, dark, fat vintage overall sound. My ’57 Premier amp and mic combo give me the final product I’ve been chasing for years. If I wanted a purely clean sound, I’d use a different method.
That's like test driving a corvette in a very small parking lot, the Sonnys at an idle. Some of the best players I know can play through the PA at the local grocery and sound awesome. Most come to local jams and grab the vocal mic, why? Because they can hear themselves and so can the crowd, and no luggage.
"Gear has no impact on tone-you have to have good acoustic tone before you have good amped tone."
Sorry - I gotta call a big loud BULLSHIT.
The first part of this statement is simply not true. Yes,, we all get it - there is no substitute for good acoustic tone. Without it you won't sound as good, with or without an amp.
But to suggest that Charlie M, or Kim W, or Rod P, or Mark H, Or Rick E, or Gary S, or any other great player's tone isn't different depending on the gear they're using is complete and utter nonsense.
Those guys are my customers. I've worked with them extensively so I know a little about what they use and what they like. They care a HUGE AMOUNT about amplified tone and they spend a lot of money and time on good gear to get it. They would all sound like THEM through any equipment, which has to do not only with their acoustic tone but even more with WHAT THEY PLAY and HOW THEY PLAY IT - but there WOULD be tonal differences between gear which is why NONE of them play with lousy gear. They ALL use expensive mics with vintage elements and they all use custom harp amps. ---------- /Greg
They would all sound the same through most amps amd just about any mic-Dennis and I have worked closely with Kim and Rick-the gear they use may add a certain tonal nuance ,so i will admit it does not have ANY impact,but the above mentioned would sound good through a tin can and a mouse. NO BULLSHIT GREG. They are Dennis' customers as well. They are also Chuck Gurneys clients-there is no exclusivity,so don't even go there.
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2012 9:07 PM
"there is no exclusivity,so don't even go there. "
There was absolutely nothing in Greg's post that remotely suggested exclusivity in any way.
"sorry you do not need expensive mics or amps!"
There was absolutely nothing in Greg's post that remotely suggested that either. I believe the point he was making is that they go to great pains and expense to get the best possible tone for their personal requirements and taste, as does every professional musician. If the mic/amp combination didn't matter why would anyone bother?
Y'all need to get you panties untwisted. Have a shot, take a pill, roll a fatty, get laid, something.
