Dan's amp is an SJ 410. I don't think it is a Super Sonny. It is a very good sounding amp. It sounds different than the Masco, which is also a very good sounding amp. That was supposed to be the point of this thread.
Tonight Dan took the Masco to Erik Boa's blues jam at Lincoln's Roadhouse in Denver. I dropped by for a while to listen and to drop off a GE 5Y3 tube for him. He is lovin' the Masco, learning how to take control of its tonal variations. The amp was singin'; no feedback. He had it mic'ed up with just a tad going to the PA. It sounded big. Not bad for a 20-watt amp that is 60 years old.
"They would all sound the same through most amps amd just about any mic"
This is just flat out not true. Check out my tone thread. Same player, nearly the same riffs, same harps, same pedal settings, etc....all I did was switch mikes and there are two different tones.
I am literally on Spotify going through Little Charlie albums and I hear tonal differences on every album...Dump That Chump has a much less overdriven and mid heavy sound that Can't Keep it Up...different amped tones between two songs in the same key.
Then I listen to an acoustic tune like Don't Boss Me Around and hear a third tone. Deep Pockets sounds a lot like Dump That Chump - the cleaner and darker tone than heard on a more crunchy and mi-heavy Can't Keep It Up, but it doesn't sound like the exact same tone.
All I did was change mics. There is a slight volume drop between mics, but had I adjust the level, it would have NOT impacted the overall tone. The pedal I use has a level control that would not have caused the tone to change, just volume (whereas a tube amp would color the sound differently). ---------- Mike OOTB Harmonica Price List VHT Special 6 Mods Note Layout Comparisons Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas (Updated 10/25/12)
Tmf wrote: "Sonnys amps are super versatile with tube swaps." LOL. That could be said of any good tube amp.
Tmf seems to insist that all amps sound the same, but SJ amps sound better. That is illogical. Both cannot be true. I'd argue that neither is true.
It is just a fact that big 4x10 Bassman-style amps get less crunch and compression than smaller cathode biased amps like the Masco. That is not a value judgment, it is a fact. The big amps get much better volume and punch, and they can ooze tone like honey. One is not "better" than the other. I have both, I appreciate the tonal features of both, and it seems silly to pretend the differences don't exist.
Greg Heumann is exactly right: Great players (and some of us who are not so great) spend a considerable amount of time and expense getting their amp to sound just the way they want. They feel strongly that the amp is part of THEIR tone. It is hard to take anyone seriously who pretends that is not so.
"I am literally on Spotify going through Little Charlie albums and I hear tonal differences on every album...Dump That Chump has a much less overdriven and mid heavy sound that Can't Keep it Up...different amped tones between two songs in the same key."
So if I go see Rick live,his tone changes for those songs? No-it does not-Ricks tone is constant-even acoustically on Gettin Out of Town-
Rick-too bad you only posted part of my quote-you left out the part about first harp amp with line out,PIO caps and Crystal input mod.
I do have a preference for Sonnys amps beacuse they work for me-so does my HarpKing and my Danelectro. I can get just as much so called "crunch" or distortion from those amps as any smaller amp you mention-it all about setup,which most players do not pay enough attention to,especially with the HarpKing. Edited for spellcheck.
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2012 9:18 AM
Tom, at a live gig he is using the same mic and amp the whole show. There is nothing to compare to, hence why I listened to different albums.
I only used Rick in this example because I had been playing along to two of those songs yesterday and noticed the tonal variation. I've also seen online example of him using different rigs, so I assumed his recording rigs were probably different from album to album.
If you listen to the live album, his tone sound like a more compressed Deep Pockets sound. Those sound like similar rigs. The Dump That Chump tone, though, is very different...much more of a ripped tweed sound. The cleaner tone sounds more tolex Fender? That's just a guess. ---------- Mike OOTB Harmonica Price List VHT Special 6 Mods Note Layout Comparisons Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas (Updated 10/25/12)
Rick has superb tone and that's why his amped sound is so good. So what amp/mic he uses is pretty much immaterial as it's him that makes the sound. What I can tell you is that for over twenty years Rick most often used a Super Reverb. Then he got a HarpKing a few years back. Here's the thing though which applies to ANY touring pro. He has played through a multitude of amps over the years that have been provided at various venues for him, where bringing his own rig was not possible. When he has done / does this, he still sounds just like Rick Estrin! Now do you still want me to tell you that his secret to a great sound is a certain amp and not his acoustic tone?
Tmf, I am curious... What year did SJ amps introduce "the first harp amp with line out"? It was the Cruncher, wasn't it? Previous to that his big amps did not have that feature.
I have been following this thread and first have to say both amps sound great in thier own way. I like them both! The Masco is very crunchy and distorted. You breathe on it, you get a heavy distortion. The SJ even though turned down has a great sound. Clean and when you push it, get a beautiful sag. I would own both in a heartbeat and play both depending on what sound I was looking for.
Now back to the discussion. Tone comes from both the player and the amp. The player has the ability to change the tone on the fly,Fat or thin, etc. Amps are a part of the Tone. Most amps have a Treble and bass knob ( Tone adjustments )
If you are a great player, You can sound good playing though a tin can but it will lead to a different Tone AKA sound.
There are 3 ways final tone (sound) is produced. The player, the Mic the Amp.
QUOTE "A musical tone is a steady periodic sound. A musical tone is characterized by its duration, pitch, intensity (or loudness), and timbre (or quality).[1] The notes used in music can be more complex than musical tones, as they may include aperiodic aspects, such as attack transients, vibrato, and envelope modulation. A simple tone, or pure tone, has a sinusoidal waveform. A compound tone is any musical tone that is not sinusoidal, but is periodic, such that it can be described as a sum of simple tones with harmonically related frequencies.[2]"
I always participate in these threads with a detached amusement in the fact that the choice of HARMONICA is the first thing ignored in the tone discussion. The most important part of this whole equation is the harmonica. It is the only thing generating its own noise, and without it, you'd have the sound of breathing miked up, lol.
I am sure someone will debate that the harmonica doesn't generate tone and that if you play different harps of the same key through the same rig you'll get the same tone, but that is total BS.
It isn't just you, ;). I am not picking on anyone, and certainly not you, but you wouldn't read a guitar discussion like this and get to nearly a third page before someone brought the guitar into the equation.
I was fighting this the other day when trying to dial in amped sound. I thought everything was very muddy and my mic/pedal combo was a dud, but then I switched models and felt much better about note separation and punch.
"NOTE: A friend is bringing his new Wezo Megatone ME-18 amp to my jam at Ziggies this Sunday. I'll get some video and give the amp a complete review." Thanks for the time you put in on these comparisons Rick. So everyone drink lots of water this coming Sunday eve. There will be a major pissing contest Monday. ;)
Let me throw this out…gear can substantially influence how an amateur player sounds and how a pro player plays.
Most pro players have had to play through enough different rigs over the years they know what to do to get close to their signature sound with different gear.
Playing harder, playing softer, more slop, less slop, tight cup, and loose cup…all of this affects how equipment responds. Yes, some pros spend a lot of time and money on gear. From what I’ve heard from the players I’ve talked to, and this seems true with most professions, it’s so they can get what they want with the least amount of strain or effort.
"Tmf, I am curious... What year did SJ amps introduce "the first harp amp with line out"? It was the Cruncher, wasn't it? Previous to that his big amps did not have that feature."
The Sonny 2 had it ,but Sonny perfected it in 2007-
it was standard on the Cruncher,but Sonny also offers it in kit form for the 4-10.
The SJ line out is simply a ~2.2K dropping resistor from the speaker tap, right?
Kendrick Texas Crude harp amps had a line out since 1996. Now virtually all good tube harp amps have a line out, so I'm not sure how being "first" makes the amp any better.
BTW... the Mission harp amps have a line out with level control knob, the first and only on any harp amp as far as I know.
Here's the bottom line: All harp amps are good. Everybody has his own favorite, but they are all good. Mission, Megatone, Harpgear, Meteor, Marble, many others, SJ (defunct), Fat Dog (defunct), vintage gear, all of it. It's all good. The amps I modify for my own use are good.
They all sound different, but they are all good. Anybody who claims they do not sound different has a weird axe to grind. I prefer to compare them and examine each amps strengths, and I'll keep doing that.
Next up: The Wezo Megatone ME-18. I hope to compare it to a few other amps, including my Bassman and Mission amps.
Sonny had the line out in 1996. No need for a volume control knob,as long as it is TRUE speaker line out,not just a resistor on the speaker tap. The volume control on the Mission only allows a DECREASE in volume-no boost if you will. Fairly useless.
EDIT: Sonny Jr is not defunct-he just sold 4 amps-a custom Super Sonny, two Super Crunchers and a custom Avenger. He is on the mend,and contrary to some reports,is still in the business of building and selling amps.
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2012 2:14 PM
i love a good amp! someone brought a mascoe to the jam a few weeks ago sounded great till the second set i would have loved to play thru it if he would only have mic'd it
my comment earlier was re: the fact you do not need expensive equipment to get a good sound i posted a track playing out of a hundred dollar solid state amp thru a fifty dollar mic no tubes to swap nothing to tweak
i recommend buying as many cool amps as you can afford good tone starts with you! a good amp is icing on the cake i must have a sweet tooth!
Tmf, I've examined the line out circuit on the Cruncher. It is no different than any other. There ain't some magical artificial intelligence in there doing tone voodoo. It is a couple of resistors.
And, it is a fixed level while the Mission amp has a variable level. Very useful. Set it half way during sound check and then you can vary the level up or down as needed. You are no longer at the mercy of the sound guy.
Plus, the line out jack on the Mission amp is on the top of the amp on the main panel, not hidden on the bottom of the chassis where you have to grope around for it as on some amps. It's a good design, not a sloppy add-on.
hey rick you would still be at the mercy of any halfway decent sound guy.. he would simply notice you being louder and turn you down.. as opposed to having your volume control to your own speakers
it would be useful in that sound guys can have trouble getting a signal with enough power but without clipping at times.. to give them something they can more easily work with.
I totally agree that the HARMONICA must be added to the link in the chain...After I finished writing my little ditty earlier in this thread, I was going to edit to state that I can also easily feel and hear a tone change when I play a harp that is'nt what I also call HOT...I got some harps that just are not as Hot as others and as a consequence the mic and the amp do not devour the tone from them like the way I prefer and the sound form them is on the weak side of tone.
I'd just like to say thanks to Rick for posting these comparison demos' And the interesting comments that come from them make great reading and food for thought. Now that i've got my Deville set up 'right' i'm going to try and post a demo of that. Then i'll probably run for cover.
I notice that when Dennis G makes video clips to demo mics he has for sale, he always uses 3 different amps. Possibly to prove they all sound the same, but I think it's unlikely.... ----------
"I notice that when Dennis G makes video clips to demo mics he has for sale, he always uses 3 different amps. Possibly to prove they all sound the same, but I think it's unlikely..."
Dennis uses three different amps trying to cover the speaker combos found in most harp amps today-1 10",1 12",and 4 10"-so the buyer can get an idea of how it sounds through those speaker combos.
Last Edited by on Nov 01, 2012 9:41 AM
I think Dennis g.'s mic demos are the best thing going. 3 different amps and he dials it in so the levels are all the same. Also notice that all 3 amps sound different through the same mic. Gear makes no difference? Granted,he sounds great through all 3 amps,but he doesn't sound the same. He,Rick E. and Piazza all play Harp Kings,but they all have them dialed in differently.
If gear made no difference,the pros would be blowing through $20 vocal mics into cheap S.S. amps.
@TMF714 - I KNOW the gear every one of those players chooses. They are all VERY picky about the mics they play. Amps and mics DO change your tone. They do not change what you play or how you play it.
Don't even go there? Why not? I didn't claim any exclusivity - but I have worked with all these guys in the last 2 years. I know Charlie, Mark and Rick very well, Rod and Kim less so.
It is probably semantics. The statement "They would all sound the same through most amps amd just about any mic" is true in that most of us could identify the player regardless of what they played through. This is because of what I said in my original post - they sound like them because of WHAT they play and HOW they play it, much more than because of their tone. But at the same time, they will have different tone different though different gear - and they DO play special stuff.
Don't forget that because of who they are, they have access to elements that are EXTREMELY difficult for mere mortals to come by. They get my very best elements and I'm quite certain that is true when they buy from Chuck and Dennis or Mark Overman or Dennis Oellig or .... As vendors we want them to sound their best because it reflects well on us. And we know they have the chops to get the most of the mics, AND hear the differences between elements.
Charlie M - Primary mic is BlowsMeAway wood mic (he has two) - he also has a CR in a Turner shell that Sonny Jr made for him. He uses both an Avenger and Super Cruncher almost exclusively on stage. He will use other amps for recording.
Kim W plays through a number of amps - I believe his brown Concert is one of his faves. He uses ALMOST exclusively crystals, and THOSE are very hard to get, very expensive ones like Shure R7's and MC-101's.
Rod P plays almost exclusively through his Harp King 6-10. He has A few custom JT30 shells with both R7's and CM.
Mark Hummel plays through an old Bassman or his Avenger. He uses his BlowsMeAway wood mic with a Brush crystal, or another JT30 with a CM I picked for him - a 1 out of 100 element. And he also has a number of other mics he uses once in a while. Not one of them has a lousy element in it.
Rick E plays almost exclusively through his Harp King 6-10. He has a few custom JT30 and T3 shells with both R7's and CM. And he also has a number of other mics he uses once in a while. Not one of them has a lousy element in it.
etc.
These guys aren't rolling in the dough, I promise. They COULD save a lot of $$ by playing through "anything". But their mics and amps are their tools of the trade and they play through good gear. There's a reason they do. ITS CALLED TONE. You won't see any of them playing through a stock mic (besides their acoustic work through the stage SM58) - no Hohner Roadhouse JT30's, no Peavey Prowler, no Shure 520DX green bullets, NOR will you see them play through a stock guitar amp except when they're unable to travel with their own amps and couldn't find anything better.
@1847 RE "sorry you do not need expensive mics or amps!" Any great musician can make a toy instrument sound good. But very few choose to perform with them. Why do you think that is? I never said you need expensive gear or amps- I only said gear has an impact on your tone. Why? Because it does. And cheap gear doesn't sound as good. I stand by everything I said.
I cannot take anyone seriously who claims that amps don't make players sound different. I have only three harp amps right now and each has a distinct tonal palette.
-Fender Champ, compressed and ratty
-Mission 32-20, crunchy with nice overtones
-Bassman, fat smooth tone, effortless dynamics.
I sound different on each amp. It is true that people who are familiar with my playing will always recognize that it is me, but I still SOUND different on each amp. That is true for any player, I think.
I've seen Kim Wilson several times. He sounds WAY different on his dual 410 DeVilles than he does on his vintage Concert amp. On Estrin's recent instructional video he played a tweed Champ. He sure doesn't sound nearly the same with his 6x10 100-watt HarpKing.
Some of us tinker with amps to tailor the tone. For many of us the amp is part of the instrument. Players certainly sound different playing different guitars or trumpets or drums. It is the same with harp amps. Great vintage-style tube amps are like living breathing beings. They wheeze and moan and gasp. There are a lot of moving parts in the tone. They are all different. And that is what is so cool about them.
@ Greg and Rick.- Gentleman you have said everything that need be said. Pretty much summed up the lot and put paid on it. Well done both of you.
And by the way it's really nice to know I'm not crazy. I don't believe y'all are crazy..well not a lot anyway..and I agree with everything you both said. Knowing that, I'm sure you'll both now reference me on your bios :-). ---------- LSC
william clarke played a totally stock jt30 no volume control... stock... this is not an expensive mic same with lester butler i have seen him with a hohner blues blaster yes it had a 151 element but not an expensive mic not at all i have heard rod hundreds of times playing with the exception of a simple volume control a stock jt 30 yes he has a expensive fat bottom mic i believe it is a cr not a cm it was most likely given to him if you get something for nothing how is that expensive lol i picked up 2 ceramic astatic elements online for 100.00 dollars you can get 151 element for $150.00 that is a little pricey but not so much so i also found a vintage small shell green bullet at the swap meet sat he wanted $85.00 i only had 65.00 so no sale i didnt even care i have never owned a green bullet i dont care for the sound so much it has it's place but it fatigues my ear after awhile
went to a jam a week ago it was 100 degrees in the shade so i took my mic out of the car turns out i didnt have it for the jam session
there was a kid there he played pretty damn good but he wouldnt let borrow his precious little mic i would bet cause he must have paid $500.00 dollars for it
the host brought out a roland stick mic i plugged that into my battery powered transistor electro harmonix amp judging by the crown response id say it went over fairly well
ok fine.... a blues jr sometimes gets a bad rap i have played thru 3 of them in my life 2 of them did not get it...not at all my very good friend bought one used again totally stock ... that sob rips! i think he paid $300.00 for it it is loud enough for most gigs mic it thru the pa when you need more gas i have 2 audix fireball mic's no make that 3 my car was stolen i got the car back but the mic was gone so now i have two they list for 200.00 that is kinda expensive i never paid even a hundred a bucks for one but i am a lucky bastard i plug one into a anti feed backer which is "very expensive" into my magnatone"dont even ask" use the other to mic the amp when nessasary i guess my point is.. if you think an expensive mic and amp is going to make you sound like rod or kim or little billy clarke you are sadly mistaken. invest in a few good harps... and spend sometime in the woodshed then get the best equipment you can afford some of it will cost an arm and a leg but quite often you can get really good gear very cheaply my vintage champ was found at a garage sale for $10.00 dollars
@1847 "william clarke played a totally stock jt30 no volume control... stock... this is not an expensive mic" I'm sure he did....at some point. I have heard many different versions of what William Clarke used, some more believable than others, but I'd tend to take the word of Tom Ellis who supplied him with elements at various times, apparently Jeanette bought him "a bag" of R7s for his birthday, he also used CR elements and a EV630 in the early days before that was stolen, shortly before he passed he was using a SM57. The idea that he used one cheap mic, with the same element, over his career isn't really going to stand up to much scrutiny (just as it wouldn't for just about any player with his kind of portfolio).
I do kind of get TMF714's viewpoint, but it is somewhat conceptual - you bring the tone with you to the table. That's true enough, but when it comes down to tangible reality (frequency response, texture, envelope etc.) the listener only hears what comes out of the speakers & a great many number of things affect what happens between the mic diaphragm and the the speaker cone that actually moves the air.
An analagy I have used before is video/film media. Let's say you watched a John Wayne movie on an old black & white, 14" cathode ray tube TV (yes kiddies, in your daddy's day people were still watching TV in black & white). Now watch that same movie on a 42" flat screen, in HD - characters, plot, performance and dialogue haven't changed any, it's still essentially the "same" (you still recognise John Wayne, he's not suddenly looking & sounding like Kirk Douglas because of the different gear), but the images that you see are tangibly different in many ways.
It's the same with amps, you might recognise a player through any number of amps, but even if you sampled the same passage & sent it through different amps there would often be identifiable differences when listening in the room.
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Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2012 4:22 AM
I own a Masco 17N. I love the tone of it. I have a 2x10 cabinet I use with it and have also run it through other various speaker combinations. I also own a Super Sonny 410 which is a dynamite amp.
I find the SS more versatile for club dates. Why? Its a simple plug in, dial it in and play amp. Its new, (okay a few years old) reliable, no feedback issues, no mic up issues when it is necessary to tie it into a PA and holds it own when not mic up. I have had two occasions when dancers have drunken fallen thru the stage and knocked my amp over. I simply picked up the amp and continued to play and didn't miss a beat. I am afraid a Masco couldn't take that abuse and imagine the jumble of a wires, amp and cabinet if it fell over.
Dependability, reliability, bulletproof will always keep my SS the number one choice for gigs. I love my Masco, but a stage environment is not always its optimal place to be. I remember using someones Premier 2x8 fancy pants harp amp at a jam. Yeah, it sounded great, until the rest of the band starting playing and it got drown out. Same issue can present itself with the Masco.
528hemi, I believe that Rick said in one of the first posts of this thread that he owned the Masco, and sold it to Dan on the night of the Jam when the comparison was done.
i doubt anyone here would be shocked to find out william clarke had more than one microphone but the fact remains he used a stock jt 30 extensively perhaps not exclusively but at many many live shows and recordings the whole point of this thread is trying different amps with different mics i am all for that
i was replying to the comment they all use expensive mics and amps if i am not mistaken whammer jammer was recorded with a 585 and a fender twin not all that expensive of a setup last time i saw charlie musslwhite he had a red knob twin not that expensive for crying out loud listen to adam listen to how good that cheap bastard sounds a shure mic in to a kay amp did i just call him a cheap bastard lol
528Hemi - I sold the Masco to Dan Solem, the guy playing in the video at the very top of this thread. Here is what I wrote on my blog:
"Dan decided he liked the Masco so much be bought if from me. Now it is his.
I didn't need the money, and I loved the amp, so why did I sell it? I almost never played it any more because it plays in the same power and tone category as my Mission Chicago 32-20 amp, whose milder crunch I actually prefer. I was thinking it was time to find a good home for the Masco. Dan is a great local player who is devoted to vintage tone, so I know the amp will get played and appreciated a lot. I bought my Bassman from Dan and he gave me a great deal, so I sort of owed him one. Mostly I sold it to Dan because he is a friend and a true bluesman."
@1847 re "william clarke played a totally stock jt30"
"stock JT30". Hmmm. Did it have an MC101? An MC127? An MC151? Among those elements varied tremendously from mic to mic as well. A lot of the old ones had a distinct "crystal" honky tone. It is an extremely rare MC-151, of the last production which were found in Hohner Blues Blasters, that has that quality.
But yes - a GOOD "stock" JT30 WAS a great mic. So were a lot of the original STOCK 440, 707 and 520 green bullets. Those ARE the elements I'm talking about. Good ones are getting fewer and further between all the time - and you'll pay a pretty penny to get one - especially one someone has handpicked from an assortment of 20 of them.
This doesn't disprove my point in the least. ---------- /Greg
they have gone up they were $150.00last time i checked now they are $160.00 there are several places like this selling them i got 2 mc127 for $50.00 dollars each recently hard to beat a good astatic element thats for sure
