orphan
183 posts
Oct 24, 2012
1:48 PM
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I decided to start this thread after thinking about the thread on Amps. I think it was Dougharps that suggested the keyboard amp with a 300w rating. A few others recommended going through PA's, either dedicated to harp only or through the vocalist's.
I am not anywhere near a Sound Reinforcement expert. I had a PA that I sold to get the HG50. The PA was not being used that much, I no longer had the desire to load, unload, set-up, take down, etc. Love the dedicated harp amp! One of the things that I found with PA systems was that the lower watt PAs when pushed for volume would readily feedback. The higher watt PAs(1000w+) had a lot more headroom. One person I often went to when I had problems getting the sound right told me his rule of thumb is: You need 100w on the PA for each amp on the stage. If they are really loud you will probably need more watts/amp and more speaker area on the mains.
With the 4 guitars, sometimes five, John95683 was competing with, a 400w PA would be the minimum(if the rule of thumb is accurate). I have noticed the prices on powered speakers has come down to the point that $500-750 buys from 800w-1200w. They weigh from 39-60lbs. The 200w-400w are from about $250.00 up. Seems like this could be a good option to get heard with SE amps. I never hear anyone other than HarpNinja go this route. Would like to hear what you all think.
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dougharps
285 posts
Oct 24, 2012
8:48 PM
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I think one of the new higher powered class D PA cabs is now a great option to amplify a small amp or even to use as a PA for small acts. I was intrigued by HarpNinja's description of his use of a powered PA cab. I think Adam has used a PA for this purpose.
I have older equipment, not class D powered. But I have used my 2 small wedge 10" powered Fender monitors to reinforce small amps at gigs, and also have used them with an amp modeler to play gigs.
My PA itself is a 300watt/channel head with two passive cabs. It would be too much hassle to set up for just reinforcing my small amp, unlike a stand alone class D powered cab.
In the other thread in which I suggested the keyboard amp I almost suggested class D powered cabs, but I didn't see one at that price.
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Doug S.
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orphan
184 posts
Oct 25, 2012
7:15 AM
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I don't know much about the class D amps these powered speakers use but it seems like they can put out a lot of watts in a much smaller package than the PA amps I've been around. The other thing is the decibel ratings on some of these speakers. I saw ratings that were 129db. That is LOUD. I have learned that the ratings put out by manufacturers on PAs and speakers are not a good way to compare how one brand will perform over another. It just seems like a way to reinforce the tone coming out of a favorite amp independent of a main PA and soundman. And you are right Doug, it is a hassle to set up PAs with passive cabs. I noticed some have 2 inputs and separate EQs so you could run an amp & a mic to it. Maybe the pricing will continue to come down or there will be some good pricing on used equipment. Anybody had any experience with this set up?
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2012 7:16 AM
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HarpNinja
2815 posts
Oct 25, 2012
7:27 AM
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I used a QSC K10 and two pedals for stage monitoring in a 10 piece country rock band with NO issues whatsoever outside.
Depending on what you are using for gear, I was able to get a huge and loud sound compared to a typical large harp amp. The benefits were it was aimed at me and not FOH, so it could be easily mixed. It is super loud when need be, and my tone is consistent. It doesn't change as I turn up the powered speaker.
Right now, I use a Greg Heumann bullet mic into a Tech 21 Para Driver DI into a Line 6 M9 into the QSC K10. This is an expensive rig.
HOWEVER, you can replicate something similar for MUCH cheaper with similar results. The portability is fantastic and I can just lineout to the PA.
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Mike
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isaacullah
2169 posts
Oct 25, 2012
7:40 AM
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Yeah, I've been looking at going this route too, especially since I've started with the modeling pedal route (zoom G3). The reviews I read have indicated that the Behringer EuroLive series are the best "bang for buck" in powered speakers. I believe they start at around $140, and go up with the number of watts.
From what I can tell, these kind of powered PA speakers have a couple of advantages over Keyboard/Bass amps, which are also typically clean, powerful amps. Powered speakers typically have multiple inputs and eq's, and combine at least a woofer and a horn tweeter to give you more of a full range sound. They are typically a bit cheaper than comparably rated keyboard/bass amps too. It seems to me that you can really use them like a portable "individual" PA system. Eventually, I will drop the hammer and buy one, but at the momement I'm too consumed by work to be able to put one to good use. Plus, I'm hoping that there might be some huge blow out black friday sale at guitar center or something, and I might be able to snag one of these on the cheap! :)
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isaacullah
2170 posts
Oct 25, 2012
7:45 AM
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I'm specifically looking at this Behringer Powered Speaker, which Amazon is currently listing for $164. Class D 200 watt power amp, 10" woofer, 1.35" compression tweeter, Mic and Line in, three band eq, and balanced XLR out.
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Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2012 7:50 AM
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Tuckster
1168 posts
Oct 25, 2012
7:38 AM
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Our band uses powered speakers for both FOH and monitors. It makes the onerous task of lugging equipment so much easier. JBL Eons for FOH. They are surprisingly light for what they do. Unfortunately,they are not cheap.Our bassist/soundman insists on micing everything to get a consistent sound FOH.
The vocalist/guitarist likes his vocals very loud through the monitors. Too loud for me. I've resorted to using a Behringer powered speaker(150W) for my very own harp amp monitor. I line out straight into it. It mounts right on a mic stand. I point it right at me from in front and have had no feedback problems. It was a good value @ $150,but now I see the price is $250. Not sure it's worth it at that price.
Edit- Just saw Isaac's post on the Behringer. That sounds like a good deal! Not sure if it's small enough to mount on a mic stand.
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2012 7:43 AM
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eharp
2018 posts
Oct 25, 2012
8:31 AM
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i have a behringer B212D. it works great with digitech rp units. i plug the digitech and my vocal mic in. if we use a PA, i line out to it and use it as my monitor.
this is way better than my harpgear 2 amp- louder and more versatile.
if i go to a jam, i just need my digitech pedal and play into the PA.
tuckster- issac's behringer is too large for a mic stand!
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orphan
185 posts
Oct 25, 2012
9:18 AM
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Tuckster, can you tell me what size & watts you are using for the FOH and monitor?
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Tuckster
1170 posts
Oct 25, 2012
9:20 AM
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orphan- It's not my stuff,so I don't know off hand. I'll have to check and get back to you.
I'm lucky in the fact that our bassist was a soundman who got out of the business. If you think harp player have Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS), you should get to know a soundman! I'll have to take some pictures of our garage practice space. It's overkill to the nth degree.
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orphan
186 posts
Oct 25, 2012
11:52 AM
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Sounds like the powered spkr w/clas D amp has been a good answer to some of the issues of getting heard without a lot of set up or fuss. Has anyone found a downside they weren't expecting?
No problem Tuckster. It sounds like your soundman is really happy with the set up. Because of his experience, I was just curious about his pick of spkr size, watts, and if he felt he needed subs for the bass. I don't know of anyone around here that has gone completely powered spkr/class D.
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rainman
27 posts
Oct 29, 2012
7:10 AM
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I'm considering the Behringer EUROLIVE F1220A. rated at 90 watts. What I would like to do is use my 1/4" line-out from my amp and run into the Behringer to use as my personal monitor and than using the XLR link output (connected to the input so no processing is applied) to the PA if necessary. It's another thing to lug around but it would be worth it to know that I could be heard. Is there any reason this wouldn't work?
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HarpNinja
2818 posts
Oct 29, 2012
7:26 AM
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That should work. The key here, though, is you want a speaker with a ton of watts and dB. The K10 I have is 1,000w (but I've heard it is really more like 400w) and 129dB, I think. It might be 127.
Anyways, if you are shopping, and I won't lecture people on brands, etc, you should 100% look for something similar to the clean headroom and volume of a K10. There are a number in that range, but anything less, and the speaker will run out of juice fast.
Also, you MUST have some sort of tone shaping gadget in-line whether it be an eq or dedicated tone pedal. Otherwise, you will get a crappy sound that will feedback quickly!
Most of these speakers color the tone for FOH use. Meaning, they usually have an eq bump for things like vocals to cut through the mix. The K10, for example, has a upper mid spike that sounds HORRIBLE for harmonica. You have to eq it out, otherwise you can a very hollow and feedback encouraging sound.
I wouldn't use any PA speaker straight in and cup a mic. That is asking for problems. Even a cheap eq will help.
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Mike
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Tuckster
1171 posts
Oct 29, 2012
9:12 AM
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orphan- He still hasn't got back to me. I'm guessing the JBL's are about 500 watts. The monitors are 350 watt Mackies. Unfortunately,both Mackies are not working. One has a bad diaphragm that was our fault, Due to unfamiliarity with gear we bought used,we were feeding it a line level signal,but the Mackie was in mic level mode. The other just decided not to work one gig. No power light-dead. Our service tech says these Mackies have a spotty reliability record. They are also a bitch to work on. To open the cabinet to get to the diaphragm,I needed a 12 inch long #1 phillips head. Those are not easy to find.
We do use a sub for the kick drum. About a 2 foot cube,also powered. For outdoor gigs,the bassist will bring along a really big sub. He's reluctant to put the kick through the powered mains. Bass takes a lot of power.
HarpNinja-agreed. It's more a help for mids and high end. Far from a faithful reproduction of the amp's sound. 150 watts claimed power is optimistic,too. IMHO.
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2012 9:18 AM
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HarpNinja
2821 posts
Oct 29, 2012
9:24 AM
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If you have powered mains with a built-in crossover, you can mic some of the drums and not blow anything. I would only mic the bass drum through a sub, though.
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Mike
OOTB Harmonica Price List
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isaacullah
2176 posts
Oct 29, 2012
9:21 AM
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FYI, I did more checking up on the best price for the Behringer B210D I posted about above. Including that specific Amazon link above, the best price I have found is about $185 after shipping. I'm considering going to the local Guitar Center and seeing if they can beat that price... But, I'm going to wait until the Christmas shopping season is in full effect, and retailers start to go into holiday desperation mode...
I also did some more review-reading, and have confirmed that the general consensus is that the Behringers are the best product in the under-$500 price-range. They have apparently fixed a lot of quality control issues, and the frequency of duds has gone way way down. The reliability (and light weight) of their Class-D amplifier technology and the injection molded chassis seems to give them a big edge over the competition.
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rainman
28 posts
Oct 29, 2012
10:43 AM
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The Behringer EUROLIVE F1320D Is rated at 300W max and would probably be a better choice for me and should (I've been wrong before) be loud enough for me to hear with my band. I like the idea of a wedge floor monitor for my use. It has a carpet exterior which should holds up better for me than tolex as well.
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orphan
187 posts
Oct 29, 2012
1:06 PM
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Hey Tuckster, thanks for getting back to me with the info. Bummer on the monitors. Hope the repairs aren't a bundle.
HarpNinja, your advice about the watts(the more the better) sounds like what I've heard from the soundmen. They want to have enough watts to not have to push the amps. They say things like, "I'm running two 2500 watt amps, but probably only drawing a 1000w to 1200w." The 125+dbs coming out from 400w sound like you are not having to turn the gain up much.
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isaacullah
2177 posts
Oct 29, 2012
1:54 PM
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Actually, I just price checked the B212D (the 550 watt version with the 12" speaker), and an Amazon seller has it listed for $200 plus $32 shipping. That's not a bad price increase relative to the amount of extra watts you get!
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