John95683
38 posts
Oct 22, 2012
11:20 AM
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I'm sorry if this topic has been beat to death, but here's my situation. I play in a classic rock band that has four, sometimes five, guitars, each playing through their own amp. I have an Epiphone Valve Jr. that just isn't powerful enough to be heard over all the noise. The band leader does not want to mic all the instruments through the PA because he says the the mixer (which he paid for) is too low-end to handle all the instruments.
So, my question is what harp friendly amp can I get that is powerful enough to compete with all those guitars? We play mainly local, community events for which we don't get paid, so I'm a little reluctant to spend a lot of money.
Thanks for your help.
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Rick Davis
845 posts
Oct 22, 2012
11:52 AM
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Loud classic rock band? Five guitars??? That's tough if you can't use the PA.
Since you don't want to spend much money I'd try an old solid state Peavey Bandit amp (very cheap on eBay) and put either an EQ pedal or a Lone Wolf Harp Tone pedal in front of it.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2012 11:54 AM
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timeistight
873 posts
Oct 22, 2012
11:56 AM
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What amps are the five guitar players using?
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orphan
181 posts
Oct 22, 2012
12:33 PM
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From what I have experienced or have read on this forum, you will spend a lot more money. You will probably lose some hearing. Mike,(HarpNinja) had pretty good luck with powered speakers. Others have used tube amps with 4x10 spkrs, sometimes more than one 4x10 cab. Some have used two amps. I'm sure there are a lot of other setups that could get you heard. If you decide to play with a loud band but are reluctant to spend a lot of money($500+) you might be disappointed with the results. Please let us know what you come up with. A while back, I played with a group that had a talented, LOUD, guitar player. I used a 100w 4x10 and a 50w 4x10, along with a mic to PA. When we performed people regularly came to the stage and asked for the harp to be turned up. I decided to take my lumps and what was left of my hearing and move on. I have a 50w Harpgear 4x10. I usually mic it to get a little harp in the mains. It just spreads the sound better to me. If I can't be heard, I ask the others in the band to turn down. I have been fortunate in that they are willing to do that.
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MJ
499 posts
Oct 22, 2012
12:33 PM
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Well said Orphan. If the rest of the band actually cares about the total product (overall sound) of the band, they will turn down. Or at least come down for the harp solos. If they are only interested in hearing themselves play, then you might be well served to find some real musicians. I agree with Rick on the older 80s Peavey amps plus a delay pedal being pretty decent harp amps with a little muscle and reasonable cost. I have had a Bandit 1x12 and a couple of Backstage Plus amps that were not bad for harp.
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rdfindley56
28 posts
Oct 22, 2012
12:40 PM
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Playing with an underpowered amp in a loud gig will also contribute to blowing out harp reeds, which I think results from a natural tendency we all have to play harder/louder when this occurs..
Mine is if you're going to invest in a more powerful amp, pick something that will serve you well in varying situations. Nothing against pedals, but seems you could spend that money on the amp instead and get one you really like that works well for harmonica.
Too bad on micing the amp.. that with a monitor to hear yourself you'd be golden.
Rich
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HawkeyeKane
1258 posts
Oct 22, 2012
1:05 PM
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Harp King 610 anyone? LOL
I agree with most of what's been said in this thread thus far. You can try asking your bandmates to turn down (when you're soloing at the very least). IMO, Peavey has the edge on good sounding solid state amps. A Bandit or one of the Vypyr's would serve you well in conjunction with some harp-friendly preamp devices. If the fiscal route is the way you wanna go, there's your best bet.
Bottom line...Rich is right. If you only knew how many harps I've blown out because of that innate tendency to play harder to be heard....I still struggle with it, but I'm a lot more conscious about it now.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Lonesome Harpman
110 posts
Oct 22, 2012
1:17 PM
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No Surprise John, but your lack of funds limits your amp options, without a Kinder anti-feeback type unit you are going to be fighting feedback with a low priced high powered guitar amp. You have thousands of options to consider, here is one, buy your own used powered mixer (I bought one for $75.00) and add a used 15" monitor speaker. Mic the EPI and you'll have the option to play clean through the PA.
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Littoral
627 posts
Oct 22, 2012
1:13 PM
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Given your specifics I think you should be in the PA. An open mic with the feedback threshold limits you -and the guitars don't have the same problem. They don't need the PA. Otherwise competing with that much sound would need something like the 6-12 Harp King or two white/ox blood twins like Kim Wilson used to use. Don't forget the earplugs.
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2012 1:14 PM
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Rick Davis
848 posts
Oct 22, 2012
2:20 PM
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What does the band leader mean that the mixer is "too low end" to handle the harp. Isn't there an open channel available?
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Joe_L
2120 posts
Oct 22, 2012
3:18 PM
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Probably not enough inputs to mike all the instruments.
With four or five guitarists, are you sure they want a harp player?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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dougharps
283 posts
Oct 22, 2012
5:54 PM
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I don't know how bad your cash situation is, but here is one option:
MF: Keyboard Amp PA
[edited link] Some reviews suggest you have to use more than one input to use the available power.
You could mic your amp to this, setting this off to the side, and leaving your amp as a monitor tilted up toward you in front of you. Basically you would be bringing your own PA and getting your tone and monitoring from your Epiphone amp.
This could also be used as a PA for acoustic gigs, or you could get a Digitech like Richard Hunter uses. $326 for 300 Watts...
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Doug S.
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2012 7:37 PM
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bonedog569
672 posts
Oct 22, 2012
10:59 PM
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Likely nothing short of going through the PA will really cut it. An old 100 watt Silverface Twin reverb or Super Six - might do it, but I wouldn't count on that either. As others have said , you will need serious feedback protection to play that loud through an amp and not be squealing.
You'd have to get lucky - but sometimes a beat up silverface twin can be found for reasonable coin - though almost never for less than $500.
Thats still a bit of scratch depending on your situation.
My real advice - save your hearing and play with different folks. Get hearing protection if you do keep playing with them. - unless you like the idea of permenant ringing in your ears when you reach your 50's - or sooner. Good luck.
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A440
39 posts
Oct 23, 2012
3:38 AM
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You could invest in a bigger amp, but if the rest of the band is in the PA and you are not, it will be tricky. Why not spend the money on a better mixer with more inputs? That way you can keep that sweet tone of the Epi VJ, and the PA will take care of the volume... mixed correctly with the band.
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rdfindley56
30 posts
Oct 23, 2012
6:58 AM
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I'm with Hawkeye.. If you know someone with a 6 x 10 Harp King you could have some fun being heard!
Also, how many people in this band? That's like a pick-up truck full of guitar players.. As I digress..
Rich
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2012 6:58 AM
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HawkeyeKane
1259 posts
Oct 23, 2012
7:37 AM
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Though Harp Kings are quite pricey (a classic case of you get what you pay for).
Another option might be one of the old monster amps from the sixties. Try looking for a Silvertone 1485 or a Danelectro DS-100. They're really the same amp, but they're both 100 watts, 2 channels, trem, verb, three-band EQ, and 6X10 speaker cabs. If you're lucky, you might be able to score one of these and rig it for stereo so you can be heard onstage, and still stay below the feedback threshold.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
850 posts
Oct 23, 2012
11:01 AM
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Geez, guys.... John is looking for a cheap solution since he gigs pretty much for free. Harp Kings and vintage amps are way out of bounds here.
I think John is looking for the most decibels per dollar he can get. My Bassman and pedal board would do the job well (that is what I had in mind when I put it all together) but it would cost some serious coin.
Bonedog, a silverface Twin would be killer but too much money and I'd bet WAY too heavy for a guy accustomed to schlepping an Epi Vjr. That is a commitment!
Dougs suggestion of a cheap keyboard amp is good. I believe my suggestion of an older Peavey solid state amp is good, with the lowest cost per watt.
The best solution is to persuade the band leader to put the harp in the PA mix. Or maybe to change bands. John, have you thought about starting up your own band?
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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timeistight
875 posts
Oct 23, 2012
12:12 PM
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"a silverface Twin would be killer but too much money and I'd bet WAY too heavy for a guy accustomed to schlepping an Epi Vjr."
Not to mention that it'd be kind of unfriendly to show up with a Twin or a Harp King if everyone else is playing through Princetons.
But of course we don't know what the guitar player's amps are or whether the mixer has a channel available for the harp, because John95683 hasn't been back to clarify his situation. Right now, we're just talking to each other without any real idea about what he needs.
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HawkeyeKane
1260 posts
Oct 23, 2012
12:24 PM
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"Geez, guys.... John is looking for a cheap solution since he gigs pretty much for free. Harp Kings and vintage amps are way out of bounds here."
I originally mentioned the HK as a joke, and the Dano-Silvers were more of a musing of possibilities. But I digress....
After considering all points, I find myself forced to agree with Rick on convincing your leader to mic up your VJ. It really would be best for your tone, and your harps themselves. This is a battle all harp players have to fight at one point or another. Let your bandleader know the sitch. If it's just YOUR AMP being mic'd and not EVERYONE's amp, he should have no problem with that if he's reasonable.
But I also agree with what's being said here (for once) about really figuring out if they truly want a harp player in the mix. Five guitars is a LOT of twang to go up against onstage.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Thievin' Heathen
60 posts
Oct 23, 2012
5:50 PM
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Small buget, big volume? That's a no brainer. Peavey. Duece, Ranger, Duel, Heritage, Renown
Get a volume or on/off switch for your mic and foamies for your hearing canals.
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Rick Davis
852 posts
Oct 23, 2012
7:50 PM
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The old Peavey Festival amp had 4x 6L6 power section and solid state preamp section.
If you're playing in a classic rock band you might as well use a classic rock amp.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2012 7:51 PM
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wheezer
248 posts
Oct 24, 2012
10:07 AM
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I've given up trying to compete for volume. I now just use a Harley Benton GA5 (Epi VJ clone) and mic it through the p.a. using the HB as a monitor. ( don't use the p.a. monitor channel, all you will get is feedback)
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John95683
39 posts
Oct 24, 2012
10:26 AM
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My band leader wants only vocals to go through the PA. All the other instruments (4 guitars plus a bass) go through their own amps (which are all different). We are a local garage band that plays mainly community events. All the band members are great guys, and the camaraderie is very important to me,so I don't want to rock the boat too much.
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MJ
500 posts
Oct 24, 2012
10:58 AM
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Well John, If your band-mates are such great guys then they will make some volume accommodations so that you can be heard.
That aside, with the financial constraints you are facing, finding an older Peavey as suggested in previous messages seems to be your best bet. If the band thrives and you remain a member then you can save up your coins and get yourself a pricier dedicated harp amp. Some of which have been suggested here. Good luck and have fun.
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John95683
40 posts
Oct 24, 2012
12:02 PM
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Thank you all for your input and suggestions.
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