Because I am having a heck of a time, especially on the 1-3 holes. I can almost get the 4 all the way a half tone, but when I use the same technique on the lower holes I find it impossible to only use my throat. If I try too hard I get weak bends but thats about it, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't be bending that hard anyway. So frustrating! I've been working at it for about a week now with little progress.
Tips would be nice, I've run out of google material
I seem to remember it took me a lot longer than a week to be able to do it. More like a month I seem to recall.
The only real tips I can think of are to relax, don't use too much breath force, and kind of arch the back of your tongue up whilst keeping the tip of it against the harp.
It's pretty hard to explain how to do it. It's kind of like going from saying "ahhh" to saying "oooh"
Kingley: "...arch the back of your tongue up whilst keeping the tip of it against the harp." Is that the correct way of TB bending? I thought you should bend using your throat instead of your tongue.
The throat does react as well. It's like a combination of the two. But the back of the tongue definitely moves upwards albeit very slighty. At least when I bend notes it does. Like I said it's pretty hard to explain.
I would think the best person to be able to explain it would be Dennis Gruenling.
I put a TB tip out on the first post of the Your Best Advice thread that recently resurfaced. As someone who is not an accomplished harper and primarily a lip purser, I can tell you that it actually works and is not that hard to do.
Re GH's comment, I hope there's no orthodoxy in TB technique and whatever works should be ok.
Edit: here it is for what it's worth, I did a copy and paste--
--how to bend notes while tongue blocking. Admit it, it seems impossible to a developing player, as remote as overblows. Try pulling down the back of the right side of your tongue and also curl or fold that side back over (up, towards the top of your tongue) at the same time and see what happens.
Last Edited by on Jun 24, 2009 2:16 PM
When I went into the Harmonica Master class "Tounge Blocking and Bending" with Kinya Pollard as the instructor, a couple of months ago--I could only bend the 4 while TBing.
About 2 hours into an all-day class, I could bend the whole lower end--fairly well. This is something I am still working on, but this class really helped a lot.
Yes, the tounge is involved--it has to do a humpy thing along with the throat--but the throat is the main thing--at least for me. I know that isn't a good description--but it's the best I can do without visual aids and a monkey's paw. . .
I would say it's like "bending" the air you draw : the air seems to change direction in the mouth, coming not straight but "descending". Trying to do that may help.
TB bending came quite quickly to me, but hitting the right notes every time is a different story, I am still working on hitting the 3 draw full step bend. I find it hard to control the bend between the 3 draw 1/2 step and the 3 draw 1 1/2 step.
If you can afford it I would get a few lessons via skype from Dennis Gruenling.
Try saying 'Qu' or 'U' when trying to do the bends to get you started, I ust the muscles in my throat do do the bend, pulling on the throat muscles does move the back of the tongue a bit, but not much.
Last Edited by on Jun 24, 2009 3:21 PM
Ok,... I always thought this was the wrong method (an thus I didn't really want to practice, because I didn't want to learn the wrong techinque).
Anybody here only using the throat?
The reason I ask: Bending TB (for me) works on some holes. However, there are other holes (e.g. 1,6) that already need some weird tongue acrobatics when playing LP, and I can't imagine doing it TB... the same with blow bends.
It would simply be so much easier, if there was a technique only using the throat.. ---------- germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Jun 24, 2009 3:15 PM
I don't think about the tongue when TB bending, just the throat. I have just tried a few bends and I can feel mu tongue moving but that is a reaction to what my throat muscles are doing.
I am now finding that I have a lot more strength in my TB bends than my pucker bends. I still have to pucker to blow bend, but I haven't tried working on TB blow bends yet.
Last Edited by on Jun 24, 2009 3:41 PM
I've been working on tongue blocking skills since about January.
I still cannot bend the 1 draw when drawing to the left of my tongue. If I switch to a pucker embrochre then it's not a problem, and I can feel that it's starting to get there when tongue blocking.
For tongue versus throat the key and specific hole make a huge difference for me. For those that just focus on the throat - is this true for even the 6 draw on higher keyed harps?
is the key to getting the bend. Try keep your tognue in the same placement when you say diddle.
Also, being relaxed is really key to learning how to get the bends. You have to basically 'click into' the bend and then slowly using ur stomach pull it down. Dunno if that helps but its my interpertation and perception of bending.
I can't understand people find hole 6 so hard to TB bend. It bends so easily. The hardest harp to bend it on is probably an "F". The secret is not to use too much breath force (LOL I sound like BBQ Bob!). Then you should find it extremely easy to do, assuming of course that you can tongue block bend other holes.
Now blow bends are a whole different ball game to TB bend I find. To be honest I usually lip purse bend the blow bends as it's easier to do. I keep working on doing them tongue blocked, but I can't get them as strong as my lip purse blow bends (yet!). Overblows (which I have just started doing) I'm having to do tongue blocked bending as I find it to slow to navigate around the harp when switching from LP to TB other than on the top end.
I agree with BelfastHarper that getting some lessons from Dennis Gruenling would be the best thing if you can afford them. It's something I'm considering looking at to help improve my tongue blocked overblows.
Dennis is just astoundingly good at tongue blocking. For my money he is the best tongue block player in the world!
Last Edited by on Jun 25, 2009 2:50 AM
I do 100% TB, as far as I'm concern, all draw bends are done with throat only, no tongue arching. Tongue arching comes into play when I'm doing the blow bends and OBs for TB.
Didn't take long to learn it, definately less time than it took me to get my first draw bend using the pucker when I started.
That's what I heard, the throat is the main catalyst. But it feels like just using the throat on the 3 or 2 hole just isn't strong enough to bend it without considerable force.
It took me about 4-6 months then it just happened. I nearly gave up ,thinking THIS is impossible. Dont give up just keep trying and it WILL happen. Good luck.
When I was woodshedding the blow bends, puckered, I can recall that at first I had to do a lot of tongue gymnastics. But once I got better at it, they were much easier and more throat-oriented. Same when I started to try TB bends, both draw and blow.
I think the best strategy is to not assume that if you can do it one way, then that is the way it will always be for you. And after you get them, really put a lot of woodshedding in on them, trying slight variations. Eventually you will find the optimal way to do it, for you.
Thanks again guys, I'm just a student though still looking for a job so I don't have much money, and that is going towards a set Marine Bands in the other keys besides C and Bb.
These perspectives though give me a general time frame and to not be too frustrated or impatient.
I'm going to favorite this and come back in 3 months and see how far I've progressed.
Still working on TB bends with no luck but really appreciate all of the advice in this thread. It's encouraging to know that I'm not the only one who's struggling with this. Thanks again.
I am of the opposite opinion, the tongue raises,it is connected to the throat, you feel it in your throat. In other words, the throat is an effect, the tongue is the cause. I certainly believe your mind can say "Bend throat" and the mind sends a message to the tongue which does the work and you feel it in the throat.
It seems like I am in the minority here, so I ask this question:
HOW do you bend with your throat? What is the process?
Because every time I ask that question, I get "you know, with your throat."
If I missed the detailed explanation above, please copy and paste.
I truly would like to know how to bend with the throat. I certainly feel my throat moving when I bend, I believe it to be an effect of the tongue.
Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Apr 07, 2018 9:38 AM
It's funny, but TB bending is the only technique that I did not have to work hard for at all - I could do it within a few minutes. I think what really helped me is that I've been doing about 10 minutes of puckered bending practice every day: Sloooowly bending the note down and up, really trying to understand the movements that I was doing, while eliminating the unnecessary muscle actions as well. When I tried to TB-bend, those insights were really helpful, so I'd recommend this approach to you as well.
Also: I'm just a beginner, so what do I know, but I also have the feeling that the tongue is involved, as Michael indicated.
For me it took at least a month, but it's really hard to say because it took a while just to learn to get a clean single note tone TB'ing, and I guess I was also trying to bend while I was at it. At the same time it wasn't like TBing and TB bending was the only thing I worked on, it was just a thing I had added into my practicing routine, sometimes more, sometimes less. But I practiced it almost daily for at least a month for sure. I do remember exactly when I got it though. I was walking home from work on a sunny day. What struck me as the "aha" of it was that for me it came from so deep down of my breathing, from the stomach up to the throat. The tongue might as well be completely relaxed almost and just like more doing the fine adjustments.
I can barely bend anymore. Man, when I was a kid I could put the flat of my hands on the floor when I did toe touches. Now I have to warm up to even get to my toes... and there is a spot in the middle of my back that I can't reach with either arm when I need to scratch...
Oh, wait, other kind of bend...
Michael, that's why, I think it's so useful to name all the minutia involved in the process. For me, if I'm saying 'with my throat' it's sort of me describing moving my adams apple down. There may be some tongue moving but it seems incidental to the process. That said, I can move the bend farther forward in my mouth. At that point it's definitely a tongue thing.
It is all done with tongue placement - remember, the tongue actually does go deep into the throat.
Throat muscles can be held in the "pre yawn attitude" (to give you more resonance) and the tongue creates notes through bending technique. This is a good way to understand how to "unbundle" those two so you can really determine who is doing what in there. ---------- The Iceman
All the medical imaging done thus far shows the tongue to be the active party in bending. I believe that Iceman and Michael Rubin have it right that the throat is merely reacting to the activation of the tongue – it gets pulled in by the suction created around the K-spot (where the tongue humps up to constrict the airflow).
I was a pucker bender for years until I decided I needed to figure out tongue blocked bending. It took a few days of concentrated (and at times frustrating) effort until I figured out that both kinds of bending worked the same way - tuning the oral cavity to the note by setting it to a size and then activating it by constricting the airflow at the back of the chamber by raising the tongue into what I call the K-spot because it moves into that formation naturally when you make the sound of "K."
What was different between tongue blocked and pucker bending was that with tongue blocking your tongue doesn't have the same range of front–to–back motion in the oral cavity – you have *some,* though.
So instead of sizing the cavity solely by moving the back wall (the K-spot), you could also raise and lower the floor (the part of the tongue between the K-spot and the tip). That extra way of sizing the chamber let me figure out tongue blocked bending through the range of a diatonic harmonica. =========== Winslow
Winslow’s post mentioned the range of movement and thank you for that, as it reminded me of something I noticed when recently playing a low D harp I’ve never been happy playing low tuned harps, below low F, because I struggle to get the full range of bends in chambers 1 and 2. I habitually rest my tongue on the comb when playing single notes including all bends and overbends. With this low D I found I could get the G note in chamber 2 if I used pucker technique but couldn’t get far beyond the Ab if I kept my tongue in contact with comb. With greater effort and perseverance I could get closer to the G but had more range in a pucker. Seems obvious but hadn’t occurred to me before. I still couldn’t get much action at all from chamber 1 but I’m encouraged to have found the location of movement and optimistic it can be developed.
It took me months to "get" them, but years later I am still working on "getting them to sound the way I want them to". Tip 1: start with a decent quality harp in a key of C or higher. It's just easier. My tip 2 is: as soon as you start getting your bends, start working them into songs and practice routines: eg. the gutsy hole 2 draw in "Born in Chicago", or the hole 2 & 3 bends (and 10 half step blow bend) you need to play the major scale of your harp from top to bottom. These notes/sounds are so specific you will know exactly what you are trying to hit, and whether you succeed or not.
Chris L - I teach a rank beginner to bend to exact pitch within 2 to 4 weeks of starting lessons. Once they have it, they have it for life, so it no longer "takes years to master", like the old thought process used to be. Paradigm has shifted once again.
It is all about specific tongue placement and target points. All this has been discussed at length in older threads here. ---------- The Iceman
I remember 1968 buying a Tony Glover blues harp book,and also the info paper that came with a Marine Band harp.That and all the great Chicago harp men,I was on the good foot.within a month I was TB,mouth bending and doing octives.fifty yrs. later and I`m still doing all these,and a few other things I learned on the way.Same thing with guitar, it was in me and had to come out.Assimilate, is what I did,and still do.....
Tongue blocking for straight notes is easy for me but not for bending. I have mastered all the tongue blocking techniques but I have to change the shape of my tongue in order to get a bend and I can't do it with my tongue on the harp. I've been playing harmonica for about three decades and I still can't bend with the tongue blocking method. I pretty much gave up trying 10 years ago. I hope you have better luck with it than I've had, Mgimino. Edit: I did not notice the date of the original post when I first responded. I don't think Mgimino is with us anymore.
Last Edited by DanP on Apr 11, 2018 6:28 PM
this thread is nine years old. hopefully the OP has had some luck by now.
for me took about a month or so, blow bends took a year or two and they just kind of started working after awhile, I didn't really work on them conciously too much. I find the 2 draw bend while not a problem is still inconsistent sometimes and it's good to have pucker bends and U-block bends in your toolkit too. ---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Apr 09, 2018 8:31 PM
Yes, the whole "throat bending" thing is absolute rubbish. As has been stated by Winslow, the imaging techniques prove it's all related to the tongue. For all those that insist it's still the "throat" that is responsible for bending are synonymous to "flat earthers" Nothing will make them believe otherwise.
You should just otherwise name "throat" bending the "Lovelace" technique, since there appears to be such an oral/throat fixation with some of you on this board :)
Last Edited by CarlA on Apr 10, 2018 5:47 AM
CarlA posts: "imaging techniques prove it's all related to the tongue".
That's just one source of evidence.
The other is the ability to teach tongue awareness placement to rank beginners and watch as they learn to bend to exact pitch within 2 to 4 weeks. Old paradigm said "it takes YEARS of practice to master". New paradigm says "it takes weeks of practice to master". ---------- The Iceman
I was exclusively a Lip Purser for the first 40 years. I didn't really try to learn how to TB until about 3 years ago and then it took me several weeks before I could bend reeds. But that's a little different from a guy who is just picking up the harp. ---------- Tom Halchak Blue Moon Harmonicas
yes, Tom. It is much easier to start a rank beginner off with correct technique than to correct poor technique on an intermediate/advanced player. So much to unlearn that it may take longer for them to replace bad habits with good ones. ---------- The Iceman
Well, it took 9 years to get there but like every thread that has the letters TB in it, eventually we are instructed that TB is good, lip blocking is poor technique.
This may be somewhat off topic but perhaps relevant for those lippers who are learning tongue blocking and are frustrated: I recently signed up for that free one month trial on David Barrett's "blues harmonica.com" website, via that free coupon you get when you buy a Hohner harmonica. I know I, for one, could certainly benefit from the numerous lessons/info in there, but for the free trial I was primarily curious to check out the many interviews that are posted, and have been devouring them almost nightly....a lot of legends of blues harp and amazing modern players are interviewed, discussing techniques. It came as a bit of a surprise to me that guys like Kim Wilson, Charlie Musselwhite, Andy Just, and the late great Gary Primich all do a combo of lip and TB, and although they do a ton of classic TB techniques, they primarily lip block for bends, particularly on the first three holes of the harp. Not saying one shouldn't learn how to accurately bend TB'ing...I have been recently working on TB bends myself(for years using TB for slaps, octaves, and single notes above hole 3 but not bends) and I am getting there...but for those who are frustrated or discouraged...hey: what is good enough for Kim Wilson is good enough for just about anyone, I would think. Make the sounds you want to make. Try to learn it all, but don't sweat it if it's not coming quick. Charlie Musselwhite bends lip pursing, for chrissake.
