Rgsccr
93 posts
Oct 10, 2012
10:46 AM
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Hi All,
I've started to play out a bit at jams. So far so good I guess (no rotten fruit or veggies thrown in my direction). The jams I've played at lately are pretty loud - not over the top, but loud - and I really can't hear what I am sounding like. Last night I played through the PA and was positioned right next to one of the stage monitors. I assume there is no trick to this, that is, if it's loud enough you just aren't going to hear yourself except during a solo, but in case I am missing something I thought I'd ask the question. Oh yes, I think my hearing is decent under normal circumstances, although I do get distracted by extraneous sounds (can't read and listen to music). For those of you who are experienced and confident performers, is this just not a problem - you assume you are playing okay? Thanks. Rich
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GMaj7
106 posts
Oct 10, 2012
10:59 AM
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Generally speaking - if there are no guitar players in the county and you have full control over the volume and gain switches - you should be able to hear yourself. If anywhere within a 5 mile radius there's a pizza delivery boy that owns a Strat copy .... either stop playing or learn to play by Brail.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Barry C.
327 posts
Oct 10, 2012
11:38 AM
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For me this is the #1 problem in playing harp in jams or with a band - and the reason i've cut way down on both. The answer is, there's practically no answer! Not hearing oneself sucks all the joy out of playing -as does stuffing earplugs in ones ears due to the loudness (not to mention losing hearing along the way). Cats nowadays just have no freaken clue about volume dynamics - none! the oldtime bluesman had this down pat!
Might as well strike 'in the pocket' from the dictionary!!
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Barry C.
~Band in Boston~
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Rick Davis
787 posts
Oct 10, 2012
12:03 PM
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Well, first you should ask the jam host to get you in the monitors.
Second, you say you were standing "right next to" a stage monitor. Monitors are very directional and it is best to stand right in front with it pointed directly at you. Is that what you meant?
Third, in a jam situation - or any gig with loud stage volume - there is no substitute for a big amp. At the jam I host lots of new harp players bring in small amps (some are very nice small amps, like the Kalamazoo) and they always have problems unless the other players are REALLY sympathetic to what they are trying to do. That is rare.
And fourth... GMaj7's post is freaking hilarious and spot on.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
Last Edited by on Oct 10, 2012 12:08 PM
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MP
2495 posts
Oct 10, 2012
12:21 PM
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huh!? whuuuut!? :-)
"GMaj7's post is freaking hilarious". indeed. that post alone made it worth logging on today. :-)
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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kudzurunner
3581 posts
Oct 10, 2012
12:28 PM
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I'm going to disagree slightly with Rick. Volume alone isn't the key to being heard. It's possible to bring a big amp to a jam, not be able to turn it up quite loud enough to get some serious crunch from it, and end up not hearing yourself very well, even though by any rational measure you've got "plenty of power."
In order to hear yourself, you need an amp/mic setup that lets you produce enough of the right frequencies--specifically, in the 5-8K range--that the harp sits above the general mush of the band, especially the guitar, if it's loud.
At a jam, I'd rather have a slightly smaller rather than slightly-too-large amp, and I'd rather either mic it (it is possible, although not always easy, to bring your own mic and cable and quickly toss stuff into place and plug into the PA) or elevate it so that it's at hip level.
First thing I'd do is experiment with different mics and make sure that you can get an overdriven sound, rather than a fairly clean sound, at a reasonable volume. If you go to a jam session with a big amp and a fairly clean sound, you will get buried if the guitar--or bass, or drums--are too loud.
I once got asked to sit in with a band on Beale Street during the International Blues Challenge. The guitar player was playing a Flying V through a cranked-up Twin. He was loud as shit. I had my 5-watt Kay 703. I miked it through the PA. I easily sat on top of him in the mix and could hear myself onstage, precisely because they NEEDED to push me hard through the PA in order to keep up. But I kept up. It was a great harp sound. I fought him on my terms, not his. If I'd had a Bassman, I wouldn't have been heard as well.
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Rgsccr
94 posts
Oct 10, 2012
1:32 PM
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Thanks all for the suggestions, comments, jokes etc. To clarify, the monitor was facing toward me but a friend just mentioned in an email that the jam host may have turned me up on the house speakers (people in the audience said they heard me fine)but not on the monitor. I didn't understand how this stuff works and next time will ask about that if there is time. The other thing is that my plan was to play through my small watt amp (Brugera V5), and mic it to a Mackie SRM 450 a friend had lent me. i like this idea and if it seems to work well plan on buying my own powered speaker (maybe something a bit smaller). I got this setup working at home and it seemed plenty loud enough. Unfortunately, when I got it set up on stage, I couldn't get my mic (an Astatic 200) to work when it was time to play. I think there must be a loose connection and will look at that later. The jam host suggested I play through a vocal mic but before doing that plugged my mic into the PA system and it started working. I went with that as I didn't want to risk taking it over to my amp. Anyway, it all worked out and I learned several things based on the experience: 1. bring a backup mic (I have several) 2. how stage monitors work.
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MP
2499 posts
Oct 10, 2012
1:41 PM
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Re Adams way of doing things, i totally agree!
For nearly a decade i lived a short drive from the largest sound company in the US. One of the techs, whom did my yearly Fender Princeton tune-up, toured with everyone from the Allman Bros, to Yes, and ran Michael Jacksons monitors. He obviously knew what he was doing.
when i told [Rick} that i just put a mic on that 12 watt amp under all situations, he guffawed and said, "of course Mark, that is what microphones are for!"
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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waltertore
2562 posts
Oct 10, 2012
1:43 PM
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My advice - I wouldn't get onstage with a band that is playing loud. I walk past those venues. I value my hearing. I got to hang around Willie Nelson shows in Austin. His stage volume was at conversation level. It was great to know others do like I do.
I have heard countless musicians complain about they can't hear themselves because the stage volume of the other instruments is too loud. To be honest, I don't get it. Simple solution- create your own band, your own universe, and then you have none of the stuff messing with you. This is how I do life because it is too short a trip to be wasting it. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
4,000+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Oct 10, 2012 1:57 PM
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MrVerylongusername
2424 posts
Oct 10, 2012
5:28 PM
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Adam is 100% - it is rarely entirely about volume, but rather instruments all occupying similar freq ranges.
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CarlA
137 posts
Oct 10, 2012
7:08 PM
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I love LOUD blues jams. I personally opt for the "Beethoven" style of playing harp-not being able to hear a thing so relying on your internal "ear" to get through the song. Having 3-4 guitar players and a drummer beating away like he's having an epileptic fit is groovy! A particularly great night always ends with severe tinnitus.
Man, I cant wait!! My ears are starting to ring just thinking about it!!
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9000
117 posts
Oct 10, 2012
7:24 PM
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My audiologist says if my ears are still ringing the next morning I've lost something that I'll never get back.
I ALWAYS wear ear protection on stage with electric bands. I use custom earmolds with 9db filters and I find that I can often hear myself better with them than without. They seem to help me sort of the various instruments in the mix. I want to retain enough hearing that I'll be able to play in all kinds of ensembles until I'm very old!
All the best,
Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
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walterharp
955 posts
Oct 10, 2012
7:53 PM
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I am in the earplug camp. I wear party plugs and my ears do not ring that night or the next day. Your jaw conducts sound so you can hear your playing when completely unamplified. If the sound guy does not like harp, nothing to be done for the audience to hear you other than a big amp. Or grab the vocal mic, he might not think to turn it down :-)
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LSC
324 posts
Oct 10, 2012
8:19 PM
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I'm pretty much in agreement with Adam on this one, especially getting the amp up off the ground. I've never been able to figure out if it was just me but it seemed like getting your amp on a chair or a couple of beer crates was standard operating procedure in the UK but when I came back to the states most keep their amps on the ground regardless of the size of the amp. A Bassman or the like that's fine but a 1x12 combo or smaller everything is shooting past your ankles. How the hell can anybody hear that?
I also very much second the idea of where the instrument sits in the mix. And yes, there should be some sort of mix i.e. balance even in a jam situation. With ones personal sound it's about projection not necessarily volume.
And finally, I would strongly advise getting used to playing with a vocal mic through the PA as soon as possible. If you're comfortable with that you can have a knock anywhere anytime, considerably broadening your opportunities as well as your technique. Too many people think they have to rely on just the right mic/amp/pedal/juju beads to sound good.
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LSC
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1847
279 posts
Oct 10, 2012
8:30 PM
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once upon a time
i had a "roommate"
she would buy chanel # 5 in 55 gallon drums
she would take a bath in it
go out on the town
to me i considered it "shark repellant"
like she wanted to push guys away.
to me volume, when a band is playing ,it's the same
too much you push people away
a little behind the ears
a little on the wrist
get people to come closer
when i sit in
the first thing i ask is
can we turn down?
i will get some strange looks
then i will ask it again
i'll explain let's start down here
we can always turn up.
if you start out blasting there is nowhere to go
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MN
200 posts
Oct 11, 2012
3:56 AM
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Rgsccr wrote: "I've started to play out a bit at jams. So far so good I guess (no rotten fruit or veggies thrown in my direction). The jams I've played at lately are pretty loud - not over the top, but loud - and I really can't hear what I am sounding like."
==============
I've been there, man. All (okay, 'most') beginning players have. There's been a lot of helpful feedback here already, most of it regarding gear.
But one thing I'd also like to point out is that with your development as a player will come more volume and resonance and that will enable you to be heard more clearly no matter what gear you're playing on.
When I first started playing out, I could never get loud enough, so I blamed the mic and the amp. Fact is, I just wasn't a very good harp player and didn't know anything about breathing through the instrument vs. trying to "blast." I had thin, nasally tone and thus was trying to compensate by cranking the amp up into massive feedback territory.
Long term, I would suggest (to everyone) to get at least a few lessons with a top-notch player. In the short term, I would suggest learning to tongue block (and to bend notes TBing), and to learn how to overblow. Let me be clear: I am NOT saying you need to use TBing or play overblows to have great tone and make great music. But I found that simply as an exercise, learning both of those things really forced me to breath from a deeper place and to play with a lot more focus and control. As a result, I get a lot more volume out of whatever gear I'm playing with.
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The Iceman
483 posts
Oct 11, 2012
6:07 AM
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My solution to this LOUDJAMISSUE....
When I am given the "nod" that it's my turn to solo, I will turn around on stage and face the band. Next, (getting the guitar player's attention) I will hold my right arm out, palm down, and bend at the knees while moving my arm downwards - the universal sign for "BRING IT DOWN IN VOLUME". When they turn down, then I'll start my solo.
Of course, occasionally the band will ignore this sign. In that case, I'll try again a little more exaggerated. If that doesn't work, I turn to the audience, shrug and walk off the stage.
(Not recommending this last one for ALL you guys, as it is quite a PUBLIC STATEMENT about lack of cooperation on stage).
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The Iceman
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HarveyHarp
375 posts
Oct 11, 2012
7:31 AM
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When I am in a loud jam situation, which happens weekly, I try to stand at the far end of the stage, and put an earplug in my ear that is facing the rest of the guys on stage. That way, I deaden the sound of the loud instruments and monitors (which is all of them), and I hear the total package in my other ear and I am a happy camper. If I get drowned out in the mix, so be it. I play for my own enjoyment anyway, mostly.
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HarveyHarp
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1847
282 posts
Oct 11, 2012
7:46 AM
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is that why they call you "the iceman" LOL
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Tuckster
1161 posts
Oct 11, 2012
7:40 AM
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I feel that 90% of all bands play too loud. Earplug in one ear helps me. When I can't hear myself,it's a vicious circle. I can't hear myself,lose confidence in what I'm playing and then play softer. On material I'm very familiar with,I can play without hearing myself well,but it's not fun.
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Rick Davis
788 posts
Oct 11, 2012
7:48 AM
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I'm going to agree with Adam... Mic'ing up your amp (or using your line out) is the best option. But when that option is not available you have to use the "bigger hammer method."
Bringing a small 5-watt amp to a jam is asking to be buried in the sonic mush. If you plan to augment through the PA be sure to bring your own mic and cable but you are still at the mercy of whoever has control of the mixer. Lugging a big amp lets you get around all that.
At my jam last Sunday an older woman named Ginny came in and signed up on the list to play harp. She had never played before at a blues jam and she was so nervous her hands were shaking. I put her up with experienced musicians who I knew would be supportive, and I took extra time before her set to make sure she could hear herself in the monitors. She played straight harp only, and she did great and was thrilled. I hope she becomes a regular.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Rick Davis
789 posts
Oct 11, 2012
7:57 AM
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If your rig involves multiple amps or complicated wiring connections, the jam host might get impatient and ask you to just use the vocal mics. The first duty of the jam host is to put on a good show (and make money for the club) and a long delay between sets is a big no-no... a groove killer.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Rgsccr
95 posts
Oct 11, 2012
1:30 PM
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This place is such a great resource - thanks again for all the insight and suggestions. I'll try the one ear plug idea that Harveryharp suggested. Rick (Davis) good point about the complication/time wasting issue with an amp and speaker. I was mindful of this and had done a lot of experimenting with the two devices previously. If my mic had worked properly on Tuesday I don't think it would have been a problem as I had everything connected and set to go - just had to snap on the Sennheiser mic in front of my amp and turn everything on. If there had been feedback I think the volume control on the mic would have taken care of that. At this point, the idea of not going to jams that are too loud is a little tough (haven't found any), and the level isn't so bad I am concerned about my hearing. And a guy like me can ask for the band to play quieter, but can hardly dictate and then walk off the stage if he ever wants to try that jam again. The point about just getting better and trusting yourself is certainly a good one - and I assume having a good repetoire of blues tunes you are familiar with is also key. I do know a lot of songs somewhat - Little and Big Walter, Robert Johnson, Sleepy John Estes, some Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf and James Cotton and so on. Any suggestions on specific songs that seem to come up a lot at these type of jams, or is that too vague a question?
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2012 1:31 PM
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Jehosaphat
316 posts
Oct 11, 2012
2:01 PM
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@RGSCCR
Lots of good advice above.
Re specific songs at a jam.Well a lot can depend on whether or not it 'really' is a Blues Jam.Quite a few Jams labelled blues stray off target a bit.
Our jam says in its rules that a safe bet is to basically stick to 12 bar 1 iv v progressions or at least well known tunes in the blues idiom.Prog rock is not encouraged ;-).
Given the list of songs you say you know you should be pretty safe calling out any of them at a 'blues' jam.
If you are a singer as well,or playing a harp instrumental you have a lot more say in how the tune is handled and here is where Icemans advice is really applicable in that you can direct the band re their volume during your solos.The singer is king at jams.
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The Iceman
484 posts
Oct 11, 2012
4:45 PM
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Jehosaphat is totally correct.
If you can sing as well as play harmonica, CALL OUT THE TUNE. Lotsa jams have that dead time on stage where all those guys are looking at each other goin' "What you wanna play?" "I dunno. Whatchu wanna do?".
HE WHO CALLS THE TUNE CONTROLS THE TUNE. He will be able to point at whomever when time comes to solo and can bring the stage volume down.
My own personal outlook is that, no matter what the situation, the guy taking a solo should be able to steer the rhythm section in regards to volume and any other creative idea (such as having all musicians drop out except the bass player and drummer, for instance). I've always called this "Defer to the soloist".
Of course, this is not the common reality at most jams.
Nothing bugs me more than the jam tune in which every soloist plays a little louder and a little faster than the last one, driving the band forward to a fevered pitch.
Personally, I find it a slight insult to be forced to play at a volume or energy level much higher than where I am at in that moment - hence my practice of turning around and getting the band to break its hypnotic morefasterlouder state, wake up and realize that its their place to support the soloist at where he decides to be.
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The Iceman
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bonedog569
650 posts
Oct 11, 2012
5:46 PM
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"Not in the monitor" - All the good amp/ micing suggestions aside, this was likely the issue that night. If it happens again , get the sound guy's eye, point to the monitor then point up. If he's paying attention and gives a damn- he will correct the situation for you.
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Rgsccr
96 posts
Oct 11, 2012
6:06 PM
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I am definitely not a singer - I think my restraining order prevents that. Just kidding but I am seriously pretty awful so that is not an option. Bonedog - I think you are right about the monitor - I didn't understand how that works - now I do so I'll give try getting the sound man's attention if it happens again. With regard to blues jam tunes, I didn't mean that I know a whole bunch of songs cold - I'm familiar with a many, and as I progress am learning more. The jams I've gone to have been real blues jams with pretty much only blues being played which is what I am looking for. Anyway, it's all fun.
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2012 6:10 PM
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MP
2505 posts
Oct 12, 2012
12:11 PM
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Here is a suggestion for getting the bands attention.
it's an old pro trick and works really well.
buy a scissors from a linen outlet. they make the best scissors. put scissors in gig bag so you'll know you have it with you at LOUD jam. ( no one likes to forget important gear.)
if Icemans suggestion fails, sneak up on Bass player. (He's the guy with the 6' piece of wood around his neck.)
Use new pair of scissors to cut strap that secures 6' piece of wood to Bass player and quickly relieve him of his weapon. if strap is leather, Abort! Abort!
Now, grasp neck of weapon and hold aloft over your head like Samurai or favorite Super Hero.
threaten guitarist in no uncertain terms.
if guitarist unresponsive make your intentions absolutely clear by smashing the nearest cymbal and stand. Drummer may protest. Don't pay him any mind.
Make sure your car keys are easily located. also, back your car into stall for quick get-a-way when necessary.
i keep a 5th of whiskey under the car seat and a fat one ready rolled for the ensuing car chase.
Hope this helps:-) have a good day, Mark
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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rosco1
12 posts
Oct 12, 2012
1:00 PM
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I'm sure every situation is different, but I was in a VERY VERY VERY LOUD rock band for years. We were also very good, which is why I stuck it out. Tried in ear monitors... and micing the amp and using onstage monitors...and threats and tantrums...NOTHING worked except using good mic technique and turning up my Bassman. I have killer small amps, but they would have been swallowed whole in my band, no matter how they were miced into the p.a. and monitors. It was frustrating and one of the main reasons I pulled the plug on that great band.
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waltertore
2568 posts
Oct 12, 2012
1:27 PM
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Pick your gig situations with great care. There is no fixing a bad set up let it be they play too loud, the venue is not right for your music, etc. Be yourself. By doing this you have no fears because only you can be you. I find it very funny to watch people try to be bad asses. Most have no clue to what a real bad ass is. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
4,000+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
|
LittleBubba
241 posts
Oct 12, 2012
3:45 PM
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If it's your first visit to a particular jam, maybe nobody will care whether they can hear you or not,or if you can hear yourself. If you stick with that place & get to know the players a little, they might start giving you some space. Let 'em see you as an ok person & respect that you might need to earn a place.
Also, try to communicate a bit with the other players.
It doesn't hurt (if it's a hosted jam) to have a word with "boss" about protocol, and mebbe a few words with the other players-- especially if there's an organist and you're playin' harp.
If you go to the jam numerous times and you can't get a feel for it, it's prob'ly not a place for you.
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2012 3:47 PM
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Mojokane
591 posts
Oct 12, 2012
8:15 PM
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i'm inclined to agree...all good stuff.
it's a complex set of things one must do.
For me,
Stay/play by the monitor, bring your own mic, and cable. When there is nothing of great importance going on with the soundman, at a break is best, ask him to help you mic your amp through the PA. And help him do it, too. Learn what he does...If he'll let you.
You'll do well to respect the gear he has to deal with, and allow him to do it himslef if that's the case. Usually it's the house who is paying him to run the board.
And mark your cable, keep your gear close, and stash your stuff in a safe place while you're on stage.
It might disappear.
You'll need about 5 or 10 minutes with the soundman, to dial in your volume and tone. Ask him to adjust the bottom end more,and trim the highs.
Mostly low and mids, are what I use. I also use a Sennheiser 609e. This mic is a winner for mic'ing amps($100+/-25).
It produces a good tone in itself. But really adds a bit more "tone" to my amp, too.
You'll need to be in the mains, too. The crowd needs to hear you. But all I want to do is hear myself..1st.
I hear myself much better through the monitors. I'm going deaf...slowly. This is important for your survival as an amplified harp player. Never strain to hear yourself.
It's fair to demand a good mix, but not always a good idea. If you're good, they'll make room for you, and put up with you, too. Strive to be really good.
Take the time, and be nice, when you "ask" him to help you. It's true, few people understand the harp player. And for good reason. 75% of us have irritated people to no end, for the first 5 or 10 yrs.
Hmmmm...there are other factors which influence how you want to set up you gear at a jam. Do you have aspirations of fronting your own band someday?
If so, use these jams to search for players. Make it a business approach. Make your band a dictatorship...not a democracy. It is always a bad idea to waffle over too many issues, like what to play, or how, or when?
Know what you are getting into, and try to avoid the traps of creating your own band.
Seek wisdom from those who have done, or are doing it.
Another thread...?
Hope this helps, too.
Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
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Rick Davis
801 posts
Oct 12, 2012
8:23 PM
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After all the discussion about hearing ourselves on stage and monitors and stuff, the truth is there are times when you cannot hear yourself and you have to play anyway. Get used to it. Those situations do come up from time to time an you gotta roll with it.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Rick Davis
802 posts
Oct 12, 2012
8:25 PM
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(sorry, duplicate comment....)
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2012 8:34 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
50 posts
Oct 13, 2012
2:07 PM
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I was out at a jam last Thursday night, carrying along my little Peavey Triumph (1x12 @ 65 watts) and the soundman say’s he wants to put me through the PA because he doesn’t have another mic to mic my amp. I tried to say, “don’t worry about it, set it up on a chair and I’ll be OK”. I wanted my sound, through my amp and my mic, but I looked up on stage and their was a Music Man 4x10, a Soldano 4x10 and a home built head & stack of Peavey 12” Black Widows. That was the guitar amp collection. There was still bass & drums, and this bar is about the size of a convenience store. Maybe he knew what he was talking about.
He set me up with an old Shure mic (apparently unsuitable to mic an amp) which happened to have small diameter stem which fit between my middle & ring finger allowing to me to get a tight cup on it and he cranked it up. He set it on barstool and said “come on up when you want to play”. I sat through a couple of the “ageing rocker playing Black Sabbath” (another thread) songs wishing I had packed my low D, but in due time things came around my way. I’d like to say there was a happy ending, but other than getting to play harmonica out at a blues jam, I still had to get up and go to work Friday morning.
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