jonsparrow
350 posts
May 25, 2009
3:04 PM
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ok so this only applies to the people who only have a few custom harps an have more stock harps. so say you have a few stock harps in the key of A. an one custom in the key of A. every time you feel like playing an A harp do you always grab the custom cause its the best one? or do you treat it like something special that should only be played once an a while to prevent wear. like a really nice guitar. just wondering cause i should be receiving my first two custom harps hopefully this week. im excited. :)
also how do you decide what key you what to buy when getting a custom? my favorite keys are A and Bb so those are the ones i ordered. i also like G so that will probably be my next one. but then again i want to try different customizers so i can compare. but if i did that to really compare i would have to get the same keys. and i do that now with stock harps. i have same keys in both marine band an sp20. only one golden melody. i would feel kinda weird having like 10 harps in the same key so thats why im wondering what every one else does.
BUT THEN... i have this philosophy that nice cars are meant to be driven. not garaged. i have a nice car an i beat the shit outta it. as it did with every car iv ever owned. so not playing the custom every time would kinda go against that.
i think too much.
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Preston
371 posts
May 25, 2009
6:02 PM
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I'm a self customizer. I don't know how good I am compared to well known pros, because I've never bought one of their harps to compare my skills to. I don't want to mislead anybody reading this: I don't know anything about molecular de-stressing or any of the other stuff that the true professionals do. But I am into sanding and sealing wood combs, and I do a fair amount of gapping/embossing and arching on my reed plates and reeds. I CAN tell you there is a night and day difference in the way a harp sounds and responds once I'm done with it. (that skill comes from elkriverharmonica's and Buddah's videos, and about a year of trial and error.)
Now that I've got all of that said so that you kind of know where I am coming from, I can tell you that if I DID have a custom harp, I would never go back and play my stock in that same key. If I was practicing for a performance, there is NO reason to practice on a stock harp and then step up at game time and try to blow the same thing on a souped up harp. They don't respond the same way, and if you've committed something to muscle memory, you're gonna F-up if your trading harps.
Practice how you want to play, with the equipment you want to play with.
I can rant a lot more: why would you spend the kind of money on a customized harp and rarely play it? I like what you said, "Nice cars are meant to be driven." Damn straight!
I think I am completely torn between Adam and Buddah's points of view on stock vs. custom. On one hand I see the satisfaction of tackling and conquering a stock harp. On the other hand, I see the importance of a fine tuned and responsive instrument that will let a beginner experience the full potential of the instrument.
So to answer your other question, and tie in my soapbox preaching, I would suggest a beginner (who's serious about committing to the instrument) try 3-4 keys of stock harps for a couple of weeks and then purchase a custom harp in their favorite key. That's quite an investment for a beginner, but stock harps are cheap in the world of musical instruments.
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jonsparrow
351 posts
May 25, 2009
6:35 PM
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"If I was practicing for a performance, there is NO reason to practice on a stock harp and then step up at game time and try to blow the same thing on a souped up harp."
thats a very good point. i think that right there convinced me.
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oldwailer
738 posts
May 25, 2009
9:30 PM
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I play my custom harps all the time--they're the first ones I reach for if I have any choice in the matter of key. I have duplicate keys in outta the boxers--but I only use them for back up.
Of course I am always working on the back-ups to have first-rate self-customized harps. I have a couple of them that are pretty good--but still nothing as good as the ones Buddha made for me.
I know some people will drive a shit car to the market then break out the good car to go to church--I ain't like that--if I have a best harp--I play it to death--same with my guitars--if I'm not playing them, I sell them off. . .
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jonsparrow
353 posts
May 25, 2009
11:56 PM
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if you go out an bring a harp would you bring a stock one or custom?
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The Gloth
57 posts
May 26, 2009
12:26 AM
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"I would suggest a beginner (who's serious about committing to the instrument) try 3-4 keys of stock harps for a couple of weeks and then purchase a custom harp in their favorite key."
A couple of weeks ? I would say a couple of years !
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jonsparrow
354 posts
May 26, 2009
12:43 AM
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i disagree. though i disagree with weeks. too. i think it should at least be a few months. cause thats what i did. like if your going to play guitar are you gonna to stick with a squire for a few years or buy a real fender? a fender. an thats alot more money then a custom harp. a custom harp is the price of a squire. lol. for the price of my fender i could get several custom harps.
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The Gloth
58 posts
May 26, 2009
1:43 AM
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It's different for a guitar, because once you have one you can keep it virtually for ever. So it's better to buy a good one from the start. A harp beginner will blow out some harps during the process of learning how to use it, and even after. So, before you buy expensive harps, it's better to wait until you can play it "safe".
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Preston
373 posts
May 26, 2009
5:24 AM
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jonsparrow, you are probably right. A couple of weeks for a raw beginner is probably too quick to push a custom harp. I do think a person should own a couple of different keys right out of the chute so they can see how they respond differently.
But then again there is something to be said about a very responsive harp that will show a beginner the technique/sound they are looking for.
I go back to a personal example I had before I started doing open harp surgery: A brand new MB in the key of A, and I threw it in the trash becuase although I had a clear crisp 3 draw, I couldn't get any bends out of that hole, nor could I get a 3 blow. I tried taking it back to the store I bought it from and we all know how that turns out. Looking back on it now, the 3 blow reed was most likely stuck. An easy fix. Imagine if a newby were to have bought that as their first harp and logged on here to post that they couldn't bend the 3. We would've all told him it was his technique, wouldnt've we?
Of course I'm sure thats probably pretty rare, but it happened to me, it could happen to someone else. I've got a MB in key of D I am working on right now that the factory gap on the 2 blow was huge! I had to hit that sucker HARD to get a full step bend out of the 2 draw, and I thought I was gonna suck the reed out to get the 1/2 step bend. Now I've been bending for a long time and I'm pretty good at it. I feel sorry for the beginner that could've bought that harp.
So like I said in my previous post: I am on the fence about a beginner getting a custom harp.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 5:25 AM
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mr_so&so
104 posts
May 26, 2009
8:00 AM
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As a stock harp player, I'll throw in my 2 cents. There is a lot to learn with this instrument, especially for a beginner. The basics of clean single notes, bending, cupping, tongue blocking, etc. can be done on a stock harp. And yes, expect to blow out a few harps at first. Also, there are the dozens of models of stock harps to try before you settle on a few favourites.
I'd say it's way too soon to purchase a custom harp before at least a year, if not two. By then you know how serious you are about it too. MAYBE someone like jonsparrow, who is devoting a LOT of time to it right away, might be well served to go for it sooner, but that would be exceptional.
I'd say if you are really that curious about custom harps as a beginner / adv. beginner, then follow Preston's example and learn to work on your own harps first. That's part of the learning process too, and it will let you revive those harps you've flatted out.
I'm not against custom harps, and I will get some eventually, but I'd say it is certainly not necessary, especially for a beginner. I guess I agree with Adam, that learning to play stock or mildly adjusted instruments is good for your development as a player.
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Buddha
502 posts
May 26, 2009
8:06 AM
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"learning to play stock or mildly adjusted instruments is good for your development as a player."
I think this is insane. Most other instrumentalist have their instruments set up properly and that's the idea behind my Lotus harps. I don't do the extensive work that I do on the other models but for $85 you can't go wrong with an instrument that is properly set up. It's louder, and easier to play and that only HELPS you be a better player.
This business of learning on an out of the box harp is complete rubbish. It's not a tough guy contest, it's about making music and sharing your soul so why limit yourself with crap?
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mr_so&so
106 posts
May 26, 2009
8:26 AM
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Buddha, I'd say that after 2 years, I'm now ready to play one of your harps, but I still don't believe that it would have done me much good before now. But like I said there is plenty for a beginner to learn that does not require them. If I were a pro, or aspiring pro, I'd definitely be playing customized instruments.
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Buddha
503 posts
May 26, 2009
8:38 AM
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mr so&so,
my comments weren't directed at you specifically.
I teach lots of people and I know that I have a tremendous track record of bringing players along from rank beginner to intermediate level player very quickly. Some of it is due to my skills as a teacher but much of it is because of the harp.
My first series of lessons for beginners is how to set up your harps. I do the first one for them during the first lesson and they do they rest. If they screw them up, then I show them how to fix them.
So much of learning to do anything is mental and especially with the harmonica, it's easy to blame the instrument. When you KNOW the harp works well then you take a lot of doubt out of the equation and the student can focus on himself because he KNOWS whatever he's trying to do can be done and can be done on the harp he's working on.
There is one student I having in particular, when he came to me, he wasn't much of a player and now my wife often questions which on of us is playing during the lesson. Of course, he's talented and is a good student, and I'm a good teacher but I know without a doubt his harps have a lot to do it with it. If nothing else, the harps are a joy to play and that is another thing that help with learning via inspiration.
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mr_so&so
107 posts
May 26, 2009
9:18 AM
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Buddha, you have some good points there. Perhaps you're right that to fast-track progress a tuned-up harp and a good teacher are the way to go. But I maintain that you can also get there by a less direct root, over rougher terrain -- and maybe be a little stronger for it.
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Buddha
504 posts
May 26, 2009
9:26 AM
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NO. you won't be stronger for it. Perfect practice make perfect.
Of course you can "get there" but why take a less direct route? That makes no sense...
I wouldn't be the player I am without good harps and the same goes for most of the other good players.
Keep in mind the harps of today are rubbish compared to what people used to be able to get. Ever pick up a 1920s harp from an antique shop and play it? They were amazing and played like the current custom harps.
Joe Filisko started out by wanting to restore harps to their old standard.
All of you guys that want the old gear because you think it sounds so much better forget that harps sounded and played better back then too. So now many of you have all that fancy old gear to amplify the harp that isn't as good as before.
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Preston
376 posts
May 26, 2009
10:21 AM
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Chris, you make excellent points that are hard to argue with.
I guess it comes down to: the individual player must decide if he is really dedicated enough to learning the harp to justify spending $90-$150 right off the bat.
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jonsparrow
355 posts
May 26, 2009
10:47 AM
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buddha hsd alot of good points. as well as other people.
in my own defense as some of you think i shouldnt be buying a custom harp so soon...
this is not my first instrument. i play many instruments an have been ever sense i was little. i have my own home recording studio with ALOT of money put into it. iv takein collage courses on music theory an knew all about the circle of fifths long before i even considered playing harp. my experience with the didgeridoo enabled me to be able to do bends on a harp right away. i was able to hit all notes on the 3 hole draw within the first couple of weeks, where some people claim it took them a year to get bends down. i have never blown out a harp an i dont think i will unless it comes to wear an tear of playing it too much. so im not one of those guys who decided to just buy a harp or got one in there xmas stocking an took it up as a hobby. i take it very serious as i do with all my music. i didnt have a treble clef tattooed on my neck cause i like to listen to music. im not trying to sound all high an mighty, im just defending my self from people getting the wrong impression. yes i am a beginner an im sure most of if not all the people on here know more about harp an can play better then me. but from what i see an read an what people tell me it seems that i am progressing fast. probably due to the fact that i have no life an im able to practice all day every day. i am extremely appreciative of all the support an help every one on here has givin me. this is just my defense for people who think i shouldnt buy a custom harp only a few months in. i just lost my train of thought so ill end it there. please excuse my spelling and bad grammar.
an lol @ "open harp surgery" i like that.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 10:51 AM
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Buddha
505 posts
May 26, 2009
10:59 AM
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I'm a firm believer in have good stuff from the get go.
I spent $3000 on a guitar I didn't know how to play. I had it set up by the guy that works on Leo Kottke's guitars. When it came time to take lesson's everything rang true and clear and was so easy to play.
I'm nota guitar player but when I pick up mine, it's sounds sweet and makes me want to play.
Oldwailer liked it too. ;-)
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jonsparrow
360 posts
May 26, 2009
11:35 AM
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i also like to have nice things. im a car guy too so i guess that might be why.
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CanadianHarp
5 posts
May 26, 2009
1:12 PM
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I shouldnt of read this thread..it makes me feel like less of a beginner since I didnt buy a $300 dollar harp :(
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Buddha
509 posts
May 26, 2009
1:14 PM
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why would anybody buy a $300 harp?
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bluzlvr
195 posts
May 26, 2009
1:16 PM
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I own two customs (A and C) and I don't woodshed on them at all. Since my self customization skills are still pretty weak, and I'm presently financially challenged, my current practice of practicing on my stock harps is working out pretty well for me as I've managed to keep the customs in pretty good shape for about ten years now. (And I DO use them quite a bit.)
I really do want to end up with a full set of customs. I'm going for a D and a Bb next.
As far as taking the rougher road to get stronger, it might not be true for the harp, but I've found that woodshedding on my piece of crap guitar with heavy strings has definitely helped my guitar playing skills when I pick up a good guitar.
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CanadianHarp
6 posts
May 26, 2009
1:19 PM
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But by this thread I'm still gonna suck cause I got no custom harp :p
I kid though, I think I'll stick with my outta the box harp until I get the basics down. I'm sure once I'm ready to move on this place will have alot of ideas on what I should possibly get.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 1:23 PM
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Buddha
510 posts
May 26, 2009
1:35 PM
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no you won't as long as you have the will to kick ass.
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jonsparrow
361 posts
May 26, 2009
1:41 PM
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if you suck its cause you havnt played enough. adam dosnt use custom harps and hes great. i dont believe a custom harp will make you a better player. being a better player comes with practice. playing a custom harp will be easier to play more fun to play an sound better. plus its has more personal value then a cheap harp that any one can go to the store an buy.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 1:47 PM
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Buddha
512 posts
May 26, 2009
1:52 PM
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I disagree Jon,
A custom harp will undoubtedly make you a better player. As anybody that plays at a high level. Howard Levy readily admits his Filisko harps have helped to advanced his playing. The Filisko harps I had certainly helped to advance my playing.
I know Carlos studied with Joe to learn how to set up his own harps.
Jason studied with Richard Sleigh and others
Custom Harps make you a better player. Period.
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jonsparrow
362 posts
May 26, 2009
1:55 PM
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well in a sense that you can learn easier an faster, do overblows better yes. but i what i ment was actually learning how to play riffs, songs, scales ect...that only comes with practice. i should have been more clear.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 1:56 PM
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RyanMortos
180 posts
May 26, 2009
2:09 PM
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If I were at Howard's, Jason's, Carlos', Chris's, etc etc level Id be more apt to buy better set up customized harps. At that point I could probably make some cash with my playing. Unfortunately at this point I cant afford that luxury. Good to know there are good out of the box harps & it is possible to become a very good player with them as I know many who are and gig regularily. Id rather spend money on lessons, additional keys of harmonicas, & save up for accessories such as amps, mics, etc.
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~Ryan
PA
Ryan's Tube - Containing [0] uploads and counting...
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jonsparrow
363 posts
May 26, 2009
2:16 PM
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i was lucky enough to be able to sell some stuff to buy a bunch of gear. an i just did a brake job on some ones car the other day some im gonna use that money to get some lessons from Dennis Gruenling, sense we only an hour apart.
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nacoran
25 posts
May 26, 2009
2:26 PM
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I've only played stock harmonicas, but from the economics point of view I'd say buy a stock harmonica to find out if you really want to be a harmonica player. After that, it's a matter of economics. If you jam with a bunch of guys who can't decide what key they want to play in and you can't afford a complete set of custom harps, buy a set of stock harps. If your band likes one or two keys you might do better to get a couple custom harps in those keys. One of my favorite harmonicas for a long time was a G Piedmont with a set of even cheaper covers (no label, just really thin metal, I think maybe it was one of those promotional harps you can get a company logo stamped on). I only stopped playing it when the cover got bent badly. Now it has a rough spot by the lip. When I first put the cover on it I remounted the covers farther forward than usual so that their lip just touched the front edge of the comb. It still plays as well as my Lee Oskars.
If you are lucky enough to get a stock harp that plays well or can fix what is wrong with it becomes a matter of how much money you have. Sure, the harmonica, even a custom one, is cheaper than a good guitar, but lots of people start off with the harmonica because they can't afford a guitar.
As for which one I play when I have two to choose from, although I don't have a custom harp, I ended up choosing another Piedmont with a different harps cover put on it for one song at my friends show recently even although I had a 'better' Oskar in the same key. I switch between harps all the time and I don't notice a big muscle memory difference between them. I have to blow on the harp once or twice to remember how that particular harp plays sometimes, but then I'm fine. I think actually learning how to adjust is useful. We all have our favorite harps but different brands have different sounds. If you work on more harps you'll learn how to compensate for the different breath requirements and maybe one day you'll say, 'huh, this song needs a prettier, less dirty sound' and switch harps and since you are used to switching harps it won't throw you as much to play on something else. That said, if you have the money, there is no reason you can't switch between different custom harps!
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RyanMortos
181 posts
May 26, 2009
2:33 PM
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Jon,
Ive actually been planning the same thing but June is busy for me. Let me know how that goes.
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~Ryan
PA
Ryan's Tube - Containing [0] uploads and counting...
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jonsparrow
364 posts
May 26, 2009
2:33 PM
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good words nacoran.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 7:01 PM
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Spl20
33 posts
May 26, 2009
6:46 PM
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I've enjoyed reading most of these post's, I don't have any custom harps myself but have no doubt that they help you play better that really isn't even a question. The only player anyone points to about stock harps, that I've heard, is Adam. But I believe Adam does tweek his harps and how much is considered custom is an opinion. I would like to ask Adam "have you ever played a custom harp, made from someone else?" If not wouldn't it be interesting to see what he would think. The answer to all this is easily found by answering this question. "If all harps cost the same which would you buy?" I know I would buy custom harp everytime, I just don't have enough fetta!
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jonsparrow
365 posts
May 26, 2009
7:06 PM
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will do ryan.
also i dont think tweaking or tuning a harp makes it custom. tuning is something that every instrument gets done on a regular basis. a custom harp is when something is drastically changed. ie: changing the comb or cover plates, opening up the cover plates, replaceing nails with screws, embosing, arcing etc...
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Buddha
516 posts
May 26, 2009
7:30 PM
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I've tried more harps than I care to think about but if you're going to play an out of the box harp the suzuki fire breath has consistently been the best out of the box and they play very well for an un-tweaked harmonica.
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Miles Dewar
351 posts
May 26, 2009
9:14 PM
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Buddah, what makes your harps more durable than out of the box harps? I blow out a lot of 4 draws. What if I spend 85 dollars and it breaks quickly?
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Buddha
518 posts
May 26, 2009
10:13 PM
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I destress the reeds. I can't guarantee that you won't blow it but I can guarantee that I would fix it for you.
All harps are going to fail sooner or later and if you're blowing them out that fast then you're being a more harsh than you need to be.
Last Edited by on May 27, 2009 5:17 AM
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rustym
31 posts
May 27, 2009
4:27 AM
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I've been playing less than a year. I think I've made a lot of progress and I'm starting to get fairly good (thanks, to all you guys who make available your lessons and advice). I can hit all the bends with no problem and I'm starting to be able to play on some backing tracks all the way through a tune.
I have settled on the MB because I love the way it sounds and plays. I want to be able to hit the OB's as well but I have not been able to on these outta-the-box harps. I know my technique is OK because I've tried to adjust some cheaper harps and I can adjust it to get the OB but I usually screw up something else. I'm just not that inclined to learn harp mechanics. I'd rather just play.
I'm saying all this because I will buy a custom harp as soon as I can spend the money. I want to have available to me the most response I can get from my instrument.
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chromaticblues
120 posts
May 29, 2009
9:33 AM
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All the time!
If you bought a corvette. Would you still drive your chevette to work?
Last Edited by on May 29, 2009 9:38 AM
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chromaticblues
121 posts
May 29, 2009
9:53 AM
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My advice would be learn how to seal a comb on marine band and gap your harps. Then start lightly and I mean lightly embossing them. Do the embossing the Budda way. I use a bigger socket than he does, but I have found that to be the easiest method!
If you don't have a tuner. You need one!
If your going to be serious about playing. Then you should know what your doing!
If you learn to do all this stuff. You become more aware of what your harp needs done to it or what you could have done better. Intern you will become better.
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jonsparrow
376 posts
May 29, 2009
11:30 AM
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"All the time!
If you bought a corvette. Would you still drive your chevette to work? "
well that was my point some people will only bring the corvette out on sunny weekends.
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bluzlvr
201 posts
May 29, 2009
1:27 PM
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Gas just went up again. Glad I have the Chevette.
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