wheezer
69 posts
Apr 26, 2009
9:45 AM
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It would appear that I am not alone in finding Hohner appear to be losing their way somewhat.
I had two MB Deluxe in for repair this week and it was my first opportunity to have a good look at this model.On opening these harps my first thought was 'spoiling the ship for a hap'worth of tar'. The 'sealed comb' I was expecting
was way below expectations, the comb is only sealed around the outside, and across the front of and between the tines. On the end of one harp the finish was already flaking off. Removing the reed plates showed that moisture had been getting under the plate and over the top (unsealed) area of the tines although no distortion of the comb had yet taken place. I should say here that the harps were only a few months old and came to me to have dead reeds replaced.
The reed plates are held in with three screws along the back edge of the harp.
My gripes are: Why are the combs not completly sealed? It must cost the same to set up a machine to seal part of
as to seal the whole of the comb. A sealed comb is one that allows no moisture into the wood. You wouldn't want to wash one of these harps under a tap!!
STAY WITH ME, WE'RE GETTING TO THE GET EVEN BIT.
Gripe two: Why are there no screws through the tines to hold the front of the reed plates? Hohner MS plastic comb harps have a screw at the front, how come not on their 'we've solved all the problems with this one' harp.
IMO Honer have missed the boat, with a drop more sealant and a couple more screws they could have had a really good product.
THE GETTING EVEN BIT
If you own Hohner harps that have died you can easily bring them back to life and not have to throw any more of your hard earned money into Hohners coffers, here's how:
Handmade MB. If your reeds are shot, with a little work, the Hering 1923 Vintage reed plates will fit your MB. You will have to re drill the Hering plates to match up with the holes on the Hohner comb but in other respects they match up fine to the Hohner. These heavy Hering plates (1.2mm) are only £10 a pair plus £1.50 p.p. from Harmonicas Direct. You will also need some 10ba x 1/2'' screws and nuts
as the Hohner reed plate screws are thinner than those required by the Hering plates. The Hering plates take 5 screws and if you want to put one through the centre tine (recomended) you are going to need a total of 6. These small size screws are available from most model shops and you can find them on ebay. Seal the comb and for about £13.50 you will have the harp you thought you were buying in the first place and best of all no money has gone to Hohner.
Hohner MS Blues Harp & MS Marine Band: For these harps I use Suzuki Bluesmaster reed plates. Again from Harmonicas Direct, these plates cost £12.50 plus £1.50 p.p. If I remember correctly they come with the screws you need. Again
you will have to do some drilling but on this model you end up with a really loud harp and I have found that the Suzuki
reeds are really well set up and rarely require much tweaking. No money for Hohner yet again. I do have a video about the converted MS harps on Youtube. Enter N62KNM into youtube to find this.
While on the subject of Hohner and Hering I'll just mention
that along with the two MB deluxe I also had a Hering 1923
in, again for blown reeds. It was while working on this harp
that I discovered that parts were interchangable. I could not help but compare the construction of the Hering and the Hohner. Both are very similar and both combs are part sealed in exactly the same way. However, the Hering has 5 reed plate screws, much heavier reed plates and heavier covers but it only costs £19.95 inc. p.p.(Eagle Music). How do Hohner justify the MB Deluxe costing nearly twice as much? Anybody got an answer?
In closing, many thanks to Issacullah for the videos on mic. building and I think it was Germanharpist for the table on harp positions, I think that those items are what the forum was intended for instead of all the bitching.
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mickil
164 posts
Apr 26, 2009
1:46 PM
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wheezer,
I'm not too great with all that drilling and stuff so it's not an option for me.
I thought about getting some 1923s, which I might do. I read that their combs are fully sealed; either that or I presumed that sealed meant fully sealed, just like with the MB Deluxe.
Anyway, I'm gonna give Hohner another chance and try an MB Crossover. I don't mind paying serious money for something that's designed to last.
To save me pasting or typing it all again see what I said to Andrew in my PURE RAGE at Hohner thread.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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Andrew
247 posts
Apr 26, 2009
2:28 PM
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Mickil, I do agree with you that the MBD was over-hyped by Hohner. It is nicer than the MB, though, and 10$ isn't a lot. But if I have a future as a harp player, I'm going to guess that it will probably be with carefully gapped MBs, although GMs are not out of the question.
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mickil
166 posts
Apr 26, 2009
2:37 PM
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Andrew, it might be more cost-effective to use their MBC. They have, at last, built an MB that's not disposable; at least, that's the impression I get. Still, time will tell. They are addictive to play, aren't they?
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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Blackbird
72 posts
Apr 26, 2009
3:53 PM
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I'm betting the way Hohner seals the MBDx combs is to take a long piece of wood, route out the channels along the length, then seal that. as they slice it up into zillions of combs, the outside edge is sealed, and heck, already done. Send it off to get some reed plates on it.
I don't necessarily agree with that method of 'sealing', but I don't own a harmonica company, either.
For what it's worth, I'll try almost anything once. Including the new Crossover harps that seem to have some promise. My expectation for even the street price is high quality that still might mean that the tweakers must tweak on them, But I'm gonna play it out of the box for a while so I know how it responds from day 1.
For all of this Hohner rage going on, I still fall back on Adam's experience, and how few harps he feels he must ditch for poor workmanship, or tweak to play them well. Why all the fuss? I can't deny the advantages of pro builders either - that's a luxury vs. a requirement as a guy who is not a pro musician (but anything that makes it easier to play well is worth considering). Bottom line - like nearly every product, things are designed with MTF - mean time to failure - which is how long the manufacturer expects the item to last before you must pay them money again... not like the old quality of the 50's where they wanted it to last a lifetime. Today's products are sometimes disappointingly disposable, and so it goes with wooden combed harmonicas. Eventually, stuff just wears out. Depending upon the financial interest of the company, some will make it wear out on schedule, while others will let it wear out from natural fatigue as long as it will last.
Your cars go through tires, spark plugs, gaskets and oil. Why aren't those engineered to never fail for 'a few pennies more?' Why do electronics fail? Couldn't that be prevented for a few pennies more? Why do people die after less than 100 years on average? (they need their combs sealed!)
In short, while it's admirable to have a harmonica that will last the decades, parts of them are disposable, and that's how it is. You gotta pay to play, and if that's a bad thing, it's time to change your budget or your instrument.
Behave. It's only an opinion.
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gene
180 posts
Apr 26, 2009
6:56 PM
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The best way to get even with them for making shoddy products is to buy from a company that makes good products.
Wooden comb=better tone is a myth. Get plasitc or metal combs.
Suzuki makes good harps. I don't know about the rest, but Promaster uses 7 screws through the reed plates.
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jonsparrow
186 posts
Apr 26, 2009
7:09 PM
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i disagree. i can tell the differnce when i play a plastic or wood comb. wood is defenetly warmer.
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oldwailer
695 posts
Apr 26, 2009
7:59 PM
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Jonsparrow--I think I can tell some difference, and I like wood the best too--but do you think it's pearwood just because there was a pear orchard next to Honer's first shop/house? Would Oak sound as good? How about Purpleheart?
It would be interesting to know how much research Mr. Honer did to arrive at pearwood--are you aware of any such information?
I think I'll go do some googling. . .
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Zhin
258 posts
Apr 26, 2009
8:03 PM
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jon, don't go there man it ain't worth it.
Comb materials barely do much compared to what reeds and reedplates and cover plates do.
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http://www.youtube.com/harmonicazhin
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oldwailer
697 posts
Apr 26, 2009
8:33 PM
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I did a little googling--I think Zhin has a point--the main function on a comb is to provide a space between the draw and blow reeds. I like wood myself--more for an aesthetic reason--The composite that Buddha uses is very nice--but I think the popular opinion that the wood is warmer in tone is probably due more to the composition and shape of the reeds and reed plates--the comb material itself doesn't seem to do anything to make a harp warmer or colder.
Of course, there are thousands of harpers who will go to the grave swearing to God that wood is warmer and tongue blocking is the only way to get a great tone--just like the guitarists who will swear an oath to the Mother of God that there are no great guitars made without Brazilian Rosewood. . .
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Buddha
310 posts
Apr 26, 2009
8:40 PM
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Ray,
honestly I think there is no difference in comb material. The harp reeds simply do not produce enough energy to vibrate the comb.
I like the composite because it doesn't swell and it's very stable.
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oldwailer
698 posts
Apr 26, 2009
8:50 PM
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You're right, Master! Here's a reference for anybody who foolishly wishes to pursue this further--I'd rather just go play:
http://www.angelfire.com/music/harmonica/combmaterials.html
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Buddha
312 posts
Apr 26, 2009
8:51 PM
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The monkey fist has taught you well my padawan. LOL
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jonsparrow
191 posts
Apr 26, 2009
9:55 PM
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i gotta stick to it. accustic guitars will sound differnt depend on what wood is used. the sound will resonate differnt on a harmonica if its wood or metal or pastic. sound waves bounce off the walls inside an produce a certain sound. just like if your building a recording studio you have to put sound deadining foam in specific areas of the room to get the right accustics. i am 99% possitive it makes a differnce. i havnt been into harp that long but iv been a musician for a long time an i know differnt materials will produce differnt sounds.
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Buddha
313 posts
Apr 26, 2009
9:59 PM
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yes Jon but in the case of the harmonica there is not enough energy in the vibrating reeds to make a difference.
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jonsparrow
192 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:06 PM
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i donno. im going to have to stick to my opinion cause i firmly believe it. i could be wrong but it makes sense to me.
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Buddha
314 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:14 PM
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there is a guy named Vern Smith who has a standing offer... guess the differences in comb material (wood vs plastic) and he will give you $1000 so far nobody has been able to do it.
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jonsparrow
193 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:18 PM
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well to hear it through computer speakers is realy hard to tell a differnce. unless its an inperson thing.
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Buddha
315 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:21 PM
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it's an in person thing. do a search on the great materials debate. He's actually measured the combs with scopes and found little to no difference.
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2009 10:21 PM
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jonsparrow
194 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:27 PM
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so then the warmer tone of MB to sp20 is the reedplates, reeds, an coverplates? nothing to do with the comb?
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DutchBones
154 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:41 PM
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Jon, it makes sense with a guitar and a sound room, because you have a huge resonating chamber, surrounded by some thin solid material. (thin, compared to the size of the chamber)
In the case of a harmonica however, the chamber (the hole) is too small compared to size (thickness) of the comb to have any hearable impact. On top of that, a solid metal reed plate is attached to both sides of the comb. Whatever vibration "entered" the comb, has been "killed off" by the reed plates...
I might be wrong, but that's how it looks to me...
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DutchBones Tube
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DutchBones
155 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:45 PM
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"so then the warmer tone of MB to sp20 is the reedplates, reeds, an coverplates? nothing to do with the comb?"
They're a different design, so they should sound different.
The best way would be, to have the same reeds, reed plates and cover plates with 2 combs... one wood and one plastic and PLAYED BY THE SAME PERSON.... that would answer it......
Anybody out there who wants to do that?
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DutchBones Tube
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snakes
200 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:50 PM
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I have to agree with Buddha based on owning several Hohners (wood and resin combed) as well as reading several pointed articles from the internet specifically on this subject. And to confuse you further I'll add that my favorite tone comes from a Marine Band AND I really like the Special 20's. What do I play? Suzuki's! They're playability can't be beat IMO - period. But, I am soon gonna' try at least one of Buddha's bad boys - just gotta' wait about a month for some bills to clear. Why? Cuase I like the tone of the Marine Band and if I could get one that didn't leak, lasted well, and was easier to bend => WOOHOO. As for your question's main point about the comb affecting the tone, gotta' restate that you are dealing with much different physics than with guitars, rooms etc. and that the comb of a harmonica is much smaller and would have less effect. ...Hey, at least I didn't say gaggle (until now). Cheers man.
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snakes
201 posts
Apr 26, 2009
10:55 PM
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Last post was for jonsparrow. Sorry for any lack of clarity as I am doing a quality control test on a new bourbon. It wasn't real clear on the first sample (over ice of course) as to whether it was a candidate for future purchase considerations. I must say as I sample further it is garnering more positve points for investment. Surely I digress. Apologies...
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jonsparrow
195 posts
Apr 26, 2009
11:03 PM
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well ill be able to test metal vs plastic MB. cause i have an 'A' in sp20 an MB but ofcourse those will sound differnt but im going to order a metal comb MB tomorrow in 'A'. so when ever that gets here i can compare. im also going to order a custom wood MB in Bb an im going to get a harp from buddha but i donno what key i want from him.
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Andrew
250 posts
Apr 26, 2009
11:27 PM
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"The harp reeds simply do not produce enough energy to vibrate the comb."
"You're right, Master!"
Sigh!
If you want to talk physics, please keep in mind that the harp reeds produce enough energy to be heard 50 yards away on a still day (in other words, provide data)! Or take the classical guitar. How much energy does Julian Bream instil into a finely plucked string? Therefore he only needs a plastic guitar, 'cos that wood ain't doing anything?
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2009 11:29 PM
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Andrew
251 posts
Apr 26, 2009
11:33 PM
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The only plastic comb I've got is my GM in C, but by sheer coincidence, my MB in C is my most bluesy sounding harp, so a comparison isn't going to reveal much. Also, comb sealing affects the tone. I've noticed a difference between my MBDs and my MBs, although I couldn't describe it.
I'm thinking of getting a GM in A, but I'm not sure.
Of course, composite is not the same as plastic. Composite retains some of the cellular structure of wood.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2009 1:11 AM
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snakes
202 posts
Apr 26, 2009
11:45 PM
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Hey jonsparrow,
If you got $41.99 to spare for a metal comb harp you should got to ebay and find the key of Suzuki Promaster you like. I just bought a Low F Promaster for that price and NO shipping charge. (I have a few keys.) You should be able to find a different key of course. This is shipping in the US. The Promaster has replaceable reedplates (although they last a LONG time).
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jonsparrow
198 posts
Apr 27, 2009
12:06 AM
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ill check that out. i got $1400 to spend on harps an gear. allready spent $400 on a mic. $30 on a sp20. gonna order some custom harps, a nice case, an a HG2 if i have enough left over wich i probobly wont. but ill have enough to where i can save a little bit till i have enough. i sold a bunch of glass blowing equitment i had sitting around.
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Zhin
261 posts
Apr 27, 2009
2:36 AM
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Despite what that website says, I urge any of you who think you are on to something new and different to just find out for your own self.
I don't care how you do it and don't ask me much about how but here's the general idea:
Get a MB and SP in the same key, brand new. Record just a simple 2 hole draw or something WITHOUT cupping and make sure you remember exactly where you play it into the microphone and how much pressure you're using.
You can of course play other stuff but the idea is that you want to just record yourself playing with both as similar as possible.
Then do a listening test with a pair of decent headphones or monitoring speakers.
After that, keep it to yourself because no matter how much proof or evidence you have... People will always argue about it. Usually spinning into a heated ugly debate. In fact trolls love to participate in these kind of discussions and nobody gains anything in the end.
If I told you what I believe about the combs you wouldn't believe me anyway. And it's ok. Not my loss.
The answer has always been out there. There is no secret about it. It's not like I'm keeping to myself ot anything like that. It's just that people will always disagree and try to be smart about it.
I'm done with THAT game.
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http://www.youtube.com/harmonicazhin
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2009 2:52 AM
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jonsparrow
204 posts
Apr 27, 2009
3:32 AM
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so your trying to say MB an SP20 sound the same? if so you need to get your ears checked.
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gene
181 posts
Apr 27, 2009
3:42 AM
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Isn't there a more polite way to say that?
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jonsparrow
205 posts
Apr 27, 2009
3:48 AM
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yes but he was rude to me in anouther thread.
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Buddha
317 posts
Apr 27, 2009
6:07 AM
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"so then the warmer tone of MB to sp20 is the reedplates, reeds, an coverplates? nothing to do with the comb? "
It has everything to do with the design of the comb but not the material. On the sp20 there is more space between the resonating chamber and the reeds juxtaposed to the location of the reeds on the pearwood comb.
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Buddha
318 posts
Apr 27, 2009
6:10 AM
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Andrew, creating air waves vs vibrating the density of the comb are two different things and can not be compared. The comb is too rigid for the minimal energy the reeds can produce.
If there was a difference, I would be doing it in my shop.
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Tuckster
185 posts
Apr 27, 2009
6:14 AM
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Chocolate,strawberry or vanilla-its all ice cream. Whatever makes you happy. On a guitar,the body is your resonating chamber and its a large one. But on a harp how does that little comb compare to the large resonating chamber of your mouth,throat and diaphragm?
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2009 6:15 AM
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MrVerylongusername
275 posts
Apr 27, 2009
12:44 PM
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Zhin's right, believe want you want - (but Vern still has his 1000 bucks and I don't think he's losing sleep over it).
For anyone who is open to logic and reasoning consider this:
Pluck the string of an acoustic guitar. It makes a reasonably loud noise - Why? because the string is attached via the bridge to a resonating wooden body. The vibration of the guitar string alone creates very little sound, the resonance of the body amplifies it. The sound comes from vibrations of the soundboard - not the string.
Now pluck the string of an electric guitar. Very little sound unless it's wired into a Gazillion Watt Marshall Behemoth. The vibration of the string alone, without that large, flat springy soundboard is very low energy. It can hardly move any air.
Now plink a harp reed - does it sound loud like an acoustic guitar because of that HUUUUGGGE resonating chamber between the tines of the comb? Nah. When plinked It sounds no different on the comb as it does off. It's like the electric guitar string.
Comparisons between acoustic guitar strings and harmonica reeds are flawed, because people do not fully appreciate where and how the sound is created.
The sound from a harmonica is created by the reed chopping the air. Without the flow of air, the sound is minimal. Harmonica sound is not created by the reed's vibrations directly, but by the interaction of the oscillating reed with an already moving stream of air. In that respect the sound produced by a harmonica is closer to how the human voice works than any other instrument.
[EDIT - Interestingly the talk of Jews Harps is relevant. Think of the difference between simply plucking the reed and then plucking as you blow. Complete change in volume and tone]
The effect of shaping that airflow with mouth and throat have more to do with the final tone than anything else. Reed composition and dimensions have a part to play in sound - primarily in the creation of harmonics - and if resonance has any effect it's most likely in the transmission of vibrations from the reedplate to the coverplate. All the comb does is channel the air.
It is my firmly held belief that if you put marine band plates and marine band covers on a comb made of concrete (and ensured it was airtight of course) it would be indistinguishable tonally to one made from pearwood, rosewood, glass, brass, plastic, bamboo or anything else people use.
Sadly talk of decibels, Hertz and nth order harmonics is enough to fool people into thinking that what they are reading is science. I've seen a number of "scientific" attempts to prove that wood combed harps are best. None of them held up to even the most basic principles of good experimental design. Not a control in sight.
If Vern Smith was offering a grand to prove one way or the other, then he'd have a lot more takers. $1000 would probably just about cover the cost of setting up the experiment, with a bit of change left over for a beer. Sadly though, the only people with a vested interest who have the kind of money to do a proper controlled scientific investigation (i.e. the big harp manufacturers) are the ones who want the situation to remain unclear so they can keep selling lots of different models.
Understand the physics at least, then make up your own mind. Believe what you want. Play what you want. It doesn't bother me.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2009 12:57 PM
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Philosofy
174 posts
Apr 27, 2009
1:00 PM
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You can prove if the comb material makes a difference by having Buddha tune up a MB, play it, then switch the pearwood comb for one of his composite combs. That way the only variable is the comb. I'm sure he's done this already, which is why he swears the comb does not make a difference.
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Buddha
325 posts
Apr 27, 2009
1:07 PM
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I've put sp20s on a composite comb and it's sounds the same to my ears.
I honestly do not hear a difference between aluminun, brass, stainless steel, titanium, acrylic, purpleheart, maple, ash, zebra wood, cocobolo, paduk, water buffalo horn, horse femur, oak and composite material.
I use the composite material because it's the easiest to use, doesn't swell and it comes in cool colors.
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Philosofy
176 posts
Apr 27, 2009
1:13 PM
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Hey Buddha, are you in the Twin Cities?
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Buddha
327 posts
Apr 27, 2009
1:16 PM
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Not anymore. Are you there?
I'm in Phoenix
Teh composite material is dymondwood. I've never tried Corian though I hear it works well.
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MrVerylongusername
276 posts
Apr 27, 2009
1:32 PM
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No you can't prove it that way, but you could conclude that there was sufficient evidence to warrant a more rigorous investigation.
Scientific proof only comes from experiments where all variables have been removed other than the one being tested. Then those results need to be replicated independently.
You'd never do that with a human player. It would need to be mechanically blown to eliminate variations in air pressure and flow. The same reedplates would need to be used, which really complicates things; introducing all sorts of new variables - e.g. torque on the screws holding it altogether. (yes good science is that picky)
There is the possibility that the first run could affect the second, so you'd need to repeat the experiemt on a second reedplate/comb combination with the order reversed.
The whole thing would need to be done in a standardised air pressure and humidity (both affecting how sound dissipates) and preferably in an acoustically neutral environment.
The sounds need to be captured by high quality recording equipment (standardized mic to harp placement) and analysed by computer. Human ears are too variable and subjective.
If that's not enough to convince you that it wouldn't be a cheap enterprise, then consider that the bigger the sample size the more confidence can be placed in the results. Doing it with one set of plates and combs would be next to worthless. 20 or so would yield good data. 100 would be great.
Then, presuming your data shows a result which supports your hypothesis (or the contrary). It only becomes proof when your experiment is scrutinised by peer review and the results replicated indpendently.
Good science is hard and often costly.
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Philosofy
177 posts
Apr 27, 2009
3:47 PM
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Budha, I'm in Minnetonka until Friday. Any good blues clubs here? (Sorry for the thread hijack: I couldn't find a PM button.)
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gene
183 posts
Apr 27, 2009
3:58 PM
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MrVerylongusernameandverylongposter,
The experiment you described would very likely show that there is a difference in materials, however, the difference would probably not be detectable by the human ear. That's the part that counts.
(Sheesh! Even those 7 screws would make a difference.)
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Buddha
329 posts
Apr 27, 2009
4:04 PM
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Phil,
I'm so far removed from the scene. From what I hear from my old friends things are pretty slim.
send an email to my buddy Mike
he's a local harp player.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2009 6:59 AM
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Oisin
223 posts
Apr 27, 2009
4:49 PM
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You know if you think there's a difference between wood and plastic combs...that's ok. And if you don't...that's ok too.
It's the same thing with lip pursing and tongue blocking. It really doesn't matter.
I think Adam should add this info to the top of the forum.
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Honkin On Bobo
61 posts
Apr 30, 2009
6:55 AM
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After reading this thread I can conclude only one thing.
Buddha, you are the Les Paul of the Harmonica world.
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Buddha
336 posts
Apr 30, 2009
7:01 AM
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Thanks HOB.... . What does that mean? I know Les Paul was a guitar guy but that's it.
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Honkin On Bobo
62 posts
Apr 30, 2009
7:20 AM
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Les Paul is widely known for his work on the development of the solid body guitar (ie: father of that rock and roll "sound" we know today). He is also a phenomenal jazz guitar player in his own right, often sitting in or gigging in NYC clubs (even recently and he's in his 80's).
I made the remark because your playing ability, knowledge of musical theory, and handiwork with harp customization and knowledge of harp construction, reminded me of him.....except for harp.
You're a triple threat.....or the "go to" guy if you will.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2009 7:23 AM
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Buddha
337 posts
Apr 30, 2009
7:39 AM
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HOB! Thank you.
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