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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
the end of blues as we know it [flaming allowed!]
the end of blues as we know it [flaming allowed!]
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kudzurunner
357 posts
Apr 15, 2009
8:27 PM
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Robert Johnson Crossroads Blues Legends Park.
I have nothing against Canadians, truly. My best friend is a native of Cote St. Luc, Montreal. But this is truly horrific:
http://www.crossroadshotel.tv/index.htm
If you're so inclined, you can use PayPal to give these hooligans a couple of hundred $$$ so that a brick with your name on it is laid--if indeed it is EVER laid--somewhere near "the crossroads," which is an entirely undistinguished spot in Clarksdale, Mississippi, not far from Abe's (a terrific BBQ spot) where Rt. 49 crosses Rt. 61.
Those two routes did NOT cross at that spot when Robert Johnson was alive, so there isn't a black cat's chance in hell that he sold his soul to the devil there. But some money-hungry, blues-maddened Canadians--abetted, I should confess, by white and (one) black Mississippians--plan to build a towering hotel-and-theme-park complex there.
That WILL be the end of blues as we know it. Of course, it may be all our grandchildren know of the blues.
As long as you refrain from lynching scenarios, generalized attacks on Canadians as a group (not cool, and why would you?), and full-frontal assaults on other board members, you may feel free to flame to your heart's content.
This way madness lies.......
A blues theme park!!
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 8:27 PM
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jonsparrow
109 posts
Apr 15, 2009
8:50 PM
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jbone
51 posts
Apr 16, 2009
4:05 AM
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i had heard about this last year, didn't know who was putting it together.
it's along the lines of lawyers in nyc buying the rights to the name King Biscuit. and now the ABHF team may need to charge admission to their october fest which has always been free.
it's a tough nut to crack. if you're not familiar with the delta, you need to know how very poor the region is. near-holy sites falling down, opportunity very lacking, a lot of people over the past 20 years have left, never to return. so money coming into the area may be a good thing.
hey, when is House of Blues going to build a club in cdale??? so they can bring some rock in. don't we need more rock masquerading as blues? could be our salvation.
i love clarksdale and helena, to me these places are touchstones to the rich history called the blues. our icons lived and made this music there, walked those streets, got on and off the trains there, rode boats there, ate in some of the joints there, and definitely graced stages there. a year ago my wife and i played a couple of nights at the depot club in cdale, to very thin audiences. depressingly thin, but we said hell with it and let loose anyway. there was magic those nights. this weekend we'll be at the juke joint fest in cdale. i hope to sit in at the jam at the depot out on the back patio. we're looking forward to seeing some of the stalwarts who live and work and play locally.
what was orlando before disney world? and what is it now? food for thought. i do fear that too much $$ could "revitalize" clarksdale and helena past any recognition. but on the other hand, the area does need an infusion of cash before things go totally to ruin.
whatever the case with this latest plan, our plan is to stay close to the roots of the music, and support the grass roots efforts being made in cdale and helena the best we can. i have my doubts we'd ever stay at a mickey mouse blues resort. cotton gin inn or riverside hotel is more our speed.
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MrVerylongusername
249 posts
Apr 16, 2009
4:13 AM
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Must be my British perspective, but Crossroads Hotel just conjurs up something different in my mind...
(For the benefit of our Transatlantic friends, Crossroads Motel featured in a particularly bad 70s British soap. Bad acting, wobbly scenery - you know the kind of thing.)
Anyway I digress...
Don't "blame Canada" for this! It happens everywhere. It's a symptom of the general dumbing down of global society. Try asking your colleagues at work who Robert Johnson was. I bet the majority won't have a clue. Of the few who do - unless you've got some fellow blues fans at work - I'll bet it's through the Crossroads movie or Eric Clapton. People don't learn their cultural history from the source anymore - it's all 2nd or 3rd hand. Kids don't have a clue who Etta James was, but they know the music from the Diet Coke commercial or the druggy chick in that film with Beyonce. X-Factor-Karaoke-Plastic-Theme-Park culture. That's why I get so annoyed about Hollywood rewriting history (see the thread on Cadillac records) It's not that I don't understand artistic license - it's that I know there will be people who are too lazy to go to an accurate reference and will simply swallow what they are told as the truth.
I live in an old country. Our New World cousins, who visit England, are in awe of a Cultural Heritage which stretches back for thousands of years - not hundreds. We have Bronze Age burial mounds, and Neolithic stone circles; Castles, churches and Cathedrals that were constructed in the first millenium. Do we as a nation have any interest in our own heritage? Are the stones themselves not adequate to fire our imagination? No! apparently we need animatronic guides and interactive 'experiences'. Our kids grow up on MTV and PSP and we wonder why they are overweight and have the attention span of a Goldfish with Alzheimers. If we don't spoonfeed people, they are too lazy to find out for themselves. The facts themselves are (apparently) not interesting enough, so we turn to the marketing 'experts' to create a sanitised version that will sell; which cartoon character will appeal most to the target demographic. Meanwhile historical accuracy is relegated to an afterthought.
But it doesn't end there...
Not content with butchering our true heritage we actually invent new 'Olde Worlde' traditions.
The Scottish tourism industry would probably suffer if it were wider known that family tartans were a Victorian invention and not some Celtic tradition as old as the hills.
I grew up in Lincoln, a small city rich in Roman and Mediaeval history. Our beautiful Norman Cathedral was for 200 years the tallest building in the world - even some of the graffiti, scratched into the soft limestone doorway on the south entrance, is 18th century!. "Kilroy was 'ere 1785" (well sort of).
Every Christmas in the shadow of this remarkable building there is a 'traditional Olde English" Victorian Christmas Market. People come by the coach load from as far afield as the USA and Australia. Guest houses in town are booked up years in advance. I wonder how many of those tourists are aware that all the trappings of Victoriana are a sham? The whole thing started off in the 1980s! (Harmonica content: my first ever public performance was busking at the first Christmas market - very lucrative it was too!)
The world is turning into a theme park.
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 4:24 AM
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kudzurunner
358 posts
Apr 16, 2009
4:26 AM
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Nah, I wasn't blaming Canada, so much as a generalized "invaders from the North." Barbarian hordes? I teach southern studies, and the so-called "mythic south" is one of the things I teach. The fact that the instigator happens to be from north of the border is purely incidental; he could just as easily have been from Alhambra, or Tombstone, or Jericho (Long Island). Americans, too, love the fantasy of it all.....
Jbone: I wonder if others on the board will be in town for that festival? I'm not sure I can get free--I'm going to a soul-blues show with my wife in Batesville, 40 miles from c'dale, that night--but I just might pop over. I live only 60 miles from the Crossroads. Please feel free to start a thread on this and email me if you want (asgussow@aol.com)
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 4:29 AM
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MrVerylongusername
250 posts
Apr 16, 2009
4:34 AM
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Don't worry Adam - I was just continuing the South Park reference!
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scstrickland
41 posts
Apr 16, 2009
5:11 AM
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I'm glad to see that before the flaming begins people are looking at the issue from more than one side. A smart crowd here. MrVery is right. It seems we like to buy our history from Walmart and the next generation of musicians will make music on Guitar Hero. I have faith that someone will always keep the culture alive, somewhere. The other thing we must realize is that things change. Otherwise Mrvery would never have Cathedrals, people would still worship at megaliths. As for flaming the organizers of this project, it would be nice to know more about it. If people want to spew uneducated insults at that developers that is their prerogative. But might I suggest that before you flame you consider what you are going to DO about it. Is it possible that the developers might be open to suggestions from the Blues Community. Is it possible that with proper input they might create something tasteful? Probably Not, the all mighty $ will probably win. But you never know. My neighborhood association has a small voice but has stopped or influenced development around our community. Just my $.02
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XHarp
33 posts
Apr 16, 2009
7:01 AM
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As an " invader from the North" and part of the Barbarian Horde. I do not support any such notion. Something's just need to stay the same.
But as gentle folk from the Great White North and in typical Canadian fashion we will police it after it is built as opposed to preventing it from the onset.
Anyhow it is a sign of our times. A lot of over achievers out to blanket the planet in monetary gain as opposed to just leaving it alone.
Seems that people prefer to watch the likes of Brittney walk off stage because the "smoke machine was putting out too much smoke" then bitch instead of getting out and watching a living legend like Buddy Guy or Charlie Musslewhite (or Adam Gussow) simply perform good honest music. So it would seem that this is merely in line with capitalizing the music scene.
Bad Idea regardless who it is.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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kudzurunner
359 posts
Apr 16, 2009
7:15 AM
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scstricklnd:
You're quite right: uneducated insults wouldn't be a good idea. That's why I believe in educated insults--and action, as you suggest. Here's the email that I sent off last night to the chief point man for the project. His email address is easy to find on the website. His first name is Les. And for the record: the "legend" I'm speaking of here is the "legend" connected with the particular intersection in question--as opposed to, say, one of the thousands of other crossroads to be found in the Mississippi Delta:
"Hi Les:
I noticed that on the homepage of your website, which
promotes the forthcoming "Robert Johnson Crossroads Blues
Legends Park" [http://www.crossroadshotel.tv/index.htm], you
rehash the hoary "legend" about Robert Johnson's soul-sale
having taken place at "the crossroads" where Hwy. 49 and
Hwy. 61. currently cross in Clarksdale, Mississippi. This
is, I think, a bad idea, unless you're deliberately seeking
to propagate laughable untruths.
If you've talked to Jim O'Neal (a former and longtime resident of Clarksdale and former editor of LIVING BLUES magazine), or Scott Barretta (former editor of Living Blues and, along with Jim, the guy who writes the copy for the Blues Trail markers here in Mississippi), or Gayle Dean Wardlow, or Luther Brown, or John Ruskie, or any other blues scholar familiar with this particular subset of Southern Gothic, you must surely know that the legend has no basis in fact. Those two highways did not cross at that spot during Robert Johnson's lifetime: Jim reiterated this point when I crossed paths with him in the Blues Archive two weeks ago. The "legend," as any of these scholars will tell you, doesn't even have any basis in legend. It was a cynical invention of folks in the Clarksdale Chamber of Commerce or some equivalent boosterish organization. The "legend" is perhaps 15 years old at this point. Southerners don't consider a legend a REAL legend until it has grandchildren. This one still has a learner's permit.
cordially,
Adam Gussow
Associate Professor
Department of English and Program in Southern Studies
The University of Mississippi
P.O. Box 1848
University, MS 38677"
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 7:17 AM
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Andrew
206 posts
Apr 16, 2009
7:28 AM
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MrVeryLong, I happen to know for a fact that the only thing Lincoln is famous for is biscuits!
"You can squeeze my lemon 'til the juice runs down my leg." It never fails to amaze me how many people think Led Zeppelin wrote those lyrics.
As long as Canada builds the theme park in the wrong place, does it matter?
OK, I confess, I've had 3 pints of beer for lunch, so let's throw the cat among the pigeons - why are so many talented Americans Canadians?
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 7:29 AM
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MrVerylongusername
253 posts
Apr 16, 2009
8:26 AM
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@Andrew
*Homer Simpson voice* Mmmmm... biscuits
"Times have changed
Our kids are getting worse
They won't obey their parents
They just want to fart and curse!
Should we blame the government?
Or blame society?
Or should we blame the images on TV?
No, blame Canada
Blame Canada
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus!!!!"
@Kudzurunner
Sadly though, things don't need any historical basis to to qualify for a visitor centre:
Loch Ness Monster, Roswell, Robin Hood. Even a building as remarkable and mysterious as Rosslyn Chapel now owes more to Dan Brown's trashy nonsense than it does to its cultural and architectural significance.
People care more about folk tales and mythology than they do about real history. even when the real deal is far more lurid, interesting, shocking etc...
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 8:36 AM
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MrVerylongusername
254 posts
Apr 16, 2009
8:34 AM
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actually I've just thought about a blues themepark - roller coaster cars shaped like a harp anyone?
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Honkin On Bobo
58 posts
Apr 16, 2009
8:51 AM
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Not suprised about this development. Suprised it hasn't happened sooner actually. Maybe it's a sign that casual blues lovers (is there such a thing?) as a group have grown to a point where somebody ran the numbers and figured they'd make money off it.
The good news is it doesn't have to have any effect on you if you don't want it to. They won't get a cent of mine, and won't change one iota what I listen to or how I appreciate the music. I do feel bad for the people down in MS though.
It's about time for somebody to wade in about "how many jobs it will create", because after all, selling popcorn across from the faux "These Were The Clothes Robert Johnson Wore The Day He Returned From His Meeting With The Devil" exhibit promises to be an extremely high paying gig.
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Andrew
207 posts
Apr 16, 2009
9:18 AM
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Thanks, MrVLong, I got the Southpark reference - only this Easter I was amazed to find my brother has the DVD of Team America but has never even seen Bigger, Longer, Uncut (compared with which Team America is pretty lame stuff)!
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 9:20 AM
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MJ
28 posts
Apr 16, 2009
9:31 AM
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I am not sure what all the fuss is about. I own a genuine Thomas Kinkaid painting that depicts Robert Johnston actually selling his soul to the devil at the crossroads of Rt. 49 and Rt.61, It is tastefully done and comes with a handcrafted Melmac frame. It's twue, it's twue, it's weawwy twue.
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mr_so&so
80 posts
Apr 16, 2009
10:20 AM
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If they are true Canadians, they will apologize if they ruin the blues... but I'm sure they'll ruin themselves before they ruin the blues.
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kudzurunner
360 posts
Apr 16, 2009
11:07 AM
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I thought Thomas Kinkaid calls himself "The Painter of Light." So you're saying that....the Painter of Light takes on the Prince of Darkness! Awesome.
What sort of drinks do you suppose they'll peddle at the Crossroads Theme Park Hotel Bar?
"Devil Take My Soul" Julep
"Must Have Been the Devil" Jello Shots
Honeyboy Edwards "Robert was a Hellraiser!" Punch
"Beat My Woman Till I Get Satisfied" Martini (dirty, please)
"There's Gonna Be the Devil to Pay" Blue Agave Frozen Margarita (in a 32 oz collector's skull)
etc.
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kudzurunner
361 posts
Apr 16, 2009
11:26 AM
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Actually, I'm not against blues tourism per se. I love Steve Cheseborough's book, BLUES TRAVELING: THE HOLY SITES OF DELTA BLUES. I'm just against a developer from outside the region swooping down on Clarksdale and trying to coopt the town's legitimate blues-historical importance with the help of invented legend.
I can imagine a very different way that this sort of thing might work if, for example, Morgan Freeman and Bill Luckett (proprietors of Ground Zero) were in charge. Actually, although I haven't seen it, I hear that the new B. B. King Museum in Indianola is terrific. One thing that's made it terrific is that there's been, as I understand it, a real partnership between blacks and whites, with a real attempt, at every level, to ensure significant black representation.
This is important precisely because what makes Clarksdale important in blues history is 100% about the black blues performers who came of age there and performed there. The social history of the blues era, of course, is also the story of nearly complete white domination of the means of production: whites owned the land, the cotton gins, the farm-machinery dealerships, the cottonseed sellers, the banks that extended loans to farmers, etc. And although black political representation has increased greatly, to the point where there are currently four black candidates for the Democratic nomination for Clarksdale's mayor, black ECONOMIC participation, from everything I've been told, is still lagging severely. Whites still own all the largest farms, or 95% of them.
It would be nice, then, if a white developer from outside the region sought significant and extensive black participation from the local community on the development, contracting, and operational level. It would be even nicer if a black-owned developer was the instigating entity--if, for example, the folks who own Warmdaddy's in Philly said, "Hey, we've got family in the Delta. Let's make something happen in Clarksdale." This isn't to say that black developers might not come up with their own variation on the misguided project I'm attacking here, but there WOULD be differences--the sort of differences embodied in the work of Shade Turnipseed, who is in charge of the BB King museum's educational outreach program. She's a dynamo; they're lucky to have her. She knows that any big new institution connected with the blues that is built in Mississippi needs, at its heart, to make a committment to today's black Delta youth, rather than simply extracting (cultural) wealth from a place and people that have had far too much wealth extracted from them over the years.
More to be said about all this.
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 11:28 AM
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tookatooka
195 posts
Apr 16, 2009
11:46 AM
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I'm pleased you bought up the black and white issue here Adam. It's something that has puzzled me about the blues for a long time. If you feel this is at all contentious delete this post, I'll fully understand and maybe it's something for another thread. But, what I've noticed is that the Blues seems to be more highly regarded by middle aged white blokes than it does by the originators. I don't know how many of our forum friends are black but my perception is that the majority are white middle aged. I may be wrong, but if I'm not, I can't understand why the originating race don't seem to support the heritage they created as much as we do. Just a thought.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 11:49 AM
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MindApe
2 posts
Apr 16, 2009
12:13 PM
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tookatooka, I think this was even an issue back in 50's and 60's, when middle class British kids, your Mick Jaggers and such, were more into Blues than anybody in America. I even read somewhere that it was mainly whites who really brought about the Robert Johnson brouhaha. I know that Brownie and Sonny ended up doing most of their acoustic folky stuff for white college kids. I often get the feeling that the whole "blues" phenonmenon was originally a kind of construction imposed on black musicians by the "race records" folks of the 20's and 30's. What I mean is that all the early greats were more than just "blues" musicians and could play in a variety of styles...
Which is not any sort of criticism on the music itself, nor even the spirit. But it does seem that Blues music, even at its inception, was more of an Southern American phenomenon than a strictly black one. Of course, now that there have been more than a few generations of great Bluesmen, the genre has been even more fossilized (as tends to happen to all genres, "Classical", "Rock" etc.) Basically it's not juest a question of just blacks or whites liking blues, but the fact that it's become a sort of niche market now. Blues and Classical musical have about the same tiny shelf-space at my local HMV.
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DanP
76 posts
Apr 16, 2009
12:22 PM
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That was very well said, kudzurunner. That's the way I feel about it. One of the reasons I like going to Clarksdale is that it's one of the few places left where you can still find authentic juke joints like Red's and Smitty's. I thought the Cross Road was supposed to be the other intersection of 49 and 61. The one near Lula about 10 miles across the river from Helena. I think it was there in Robert Johnson's time but I don't think RJ meant the cross road in his song to be an actual location. I don't think Robert Johnson sang about selling his soul to the devil in any of his recorded songs but that legend continues. I'm looking forward to reading your book about the blues and devil songs when it's published, Adam.
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2009 2:44 AM
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Elwood
22 posts
Apr 16, 2009
2:03 PM
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Tookatooka, you didn't quite open a can of worms, but you certainly laid the can opener on the counter. I sense our views on this might differ. While I know what you're getting at -- the blues tradition has been fodder for white middle classes since the 1960s, I would say -- I think the reality of it is probably quite a tough nut to swallow for us members of the MBH forum...
I don't think it's that white, middle class, middle-aged blokes are sustaining a heritage that the "originating race", as you put it, is neglecting -- or at least, if that were true, it's only part of the story. (Am I correct in saying that your views are along those lines? Excuse me if I'm over-simplifying.) In fact, the way I see it, the blues tradition arose from poverty, deprivation and oppression, and at some point in the latter half of the 20th century, it got coopted by a cultural sect that didn't really understand these circumstances in the same way. You could say that the Mick Jaggers, the Beatleses, the Claptons and the Yardbirdses and the John Mayalls et al coopted the 'cool' factor of blues music. When you're bourgeois, being a have-not is not a social condition; it's an aesthetic, a fashion statement.
There are cultural critics from the left -- bell hooks is one, I believe -- who've made the claim that blues music was stolen by white folk. In a sense, I can see what they're getting at. Hell, every move in Elvis's repertoire was somebody else's to start with. How many of us here can say we haven't, well, coopted the cool factor in blues music?
This is why people cringe every time some art-school drop-out from Sheffield UK, or Rhode Island NY, starts singing about how he 'got dem dead shrimp blues'. He's adopting a discourse of poverty like trying on a sweater, and we can see through it pretty easily. In some ways, I wonder how different this is from some suit in Canada deciding he can commodify the legend of Robert Johnson trading in his soul at the crossroads in Mississippi.
Now, I freely admit that some of the greatest blues musicians came from the white middle class (among their ranks you'll find the administrator of this very forum). I'm not suggesting that those amazing musicians like Stevie Ray Vaughan and Paul Butterfield, who've carried the torch of blues to another generation, I'm not suggesting they were faking it. What I'm getting at here is a fundamental obstacle that must be navigated by those of us who would like to contribute towards blues music today. This heritage, it's complicated.
But what the hell. I'm mostly pointing fingers at myself here. We've got a guy like Adam Gussow who's *earned his stripes* in almost every way a bluesman can, in the streets with Sterling McGee. So I wonder what he makes of what I've just written...
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Elwood
23 posts
Apr 16, 2009
2:18 PM
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p.s. [as if the post above wasn't long enough] I'd like to clarify one thing to avoid alienating people unnecessarily. My argument is class-based rather than racial. So when I say refer to 'white' and 'black', I'm referring to relative measures of privelege rather than ethnicity and skin pigment. (What can I say, it's a South African thing.) The LA-based Keb Mo (aka Kevin Moore) would be an example of a black blues musician who falls into the 'white' camp.
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tookatooka
197 posts
Apr 16, 2009
2:38 PM
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Well put Elwood. I think what I'm getting at is that if you go onto YouTube virtually every blues harpist is white and I don't see very many black players, a handfull at the most. (I'm not including the old masters, Sonny Terry etc of which there are many). It just seems they have turned their back on the roots of their music and it would be great if they picked it up again and drove it forward.
Then again from an economics perspective, if you can make a fortune producing gangsta rap, you'd be mad to return to your roots where the payoff would be questionable.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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scstrickland
42 posts
Apr 16, 2009
2:47 PM
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Careful Elwood. "a black musician who falls into the 'white' camp". I suggest you say what you mean. Race is race and Socioeconomics are Socioeconomics.
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Elwood
24 posts
Apr 16, 2009
3:17 PM
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Scstrickland, I take your point, but surely there's a massive intersection between race and socioeconomics?
But as I said, I'm using these labels black and white in the useful short-hand of post-apartheid South Africa, where they can mean poor/rich or economically disadvantaged/advantaged, even though it's accepted that not all black people are poor and not all white people are rich.
A crude simplification, perhaps, but also a handy way of drawing basic marxism into a forum post without having to dust off all the cumbersome marxist terminology.
So Keb Mo is a musician who's black in the racial sense, but not of the same cultural, historical and, yes, socioeconomic 'blackness' that we mean when we refer to bluesmen raised on the plantations, like Robert Johnson after whom Keb has modelled his persona.
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kudzurunner
362 posts
Apr 16, 2009
3:30 PM
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tookatooka:
You wrote, "I don't know how many of our forum friends are black but my perception is that the majority are white middle aged. I may be wrong, but if I'm not, I can't understand why the originating race don't seem to support the heritage they created as much as we do."
One thing I do when confronted with race talk is flip the script and see how it sounds. Suppose we were talking about Italian-American kids. Wouldn't it sound weird if a couple of black guys were sitting around asking why "the originating race" was no longer interested in supporting the heritage of pioneering crooners like Mario Lanza, ol' Blue Eyes, and Tony Bennett?
It would sound weird. Why should Italian-American kids in the year 2009 have any interest in that heritage--apart, that is, from the occasional Italian-American kid who does? Similarly, why should African-American kids--the mass of them, not the occasional individual--have any particular interest in blues, or jazz, or ragtime, or spirituals? Those are old forms. Kids tend to like newer forms, or at least they have tended to for the last 100 years, from the moment the Lost Generation kicked off the Jazz Age.
The issue is a large and complicated one; it's one I've taught for many years in my blues lit classes. It is invariably addressed in over-simple ways. I could clarify it here, but I don't have the 60 minutes that would take.
As for the question beloved by white blues fans--"Why don't black folks listen to the blues anymore?"--all I can say is: This Saturday night, in Batesville, Mississippi (equidistant from Ole Miss and "the crossroads") my wife and I will be attending a multi-act extravaganza entitled "The Southern Soul Blues Show." It features five black artists, only one of whom, Marvin Sease, you may have heard of. (He's been a blues star in the South for two decades.) If my past experience is any guide, the audience will consist of 99.9% black folks. The word "blues" is still in very active use within the African American community, and not just among the 40+ crowd. One of the acts, Carl Sims, has a video on YouTube for his song, "It Ain't a Juke Joint Without the Blues."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulm1Oxv8bmw
If you've never heard of Carl Sims, and if you've ever been tempted to assume (or bemoan the fact) that "black people don't listen to the blues anymore," it would be a great idea to familiarize yourself with people like Sims. It's great reality check. The blues do NOT need patronizing white folk to "keep them alive." (I'm not speaking against any member of this forum, certainly not Tookatooka. I'm leveling a general grievance, and a long-held one.) I can't stress this point enough: The blues are alive and well, in many different forms, and do not need anybody to "keep them alive." Igor Flach is one form: terrific, soulful stuff. Carl Sims is another form.
For the record: I'm an impurist, and I'm definitely not a self-hating white blues guy. Hell, I'm probably the only person here who actually thinks that Steve Vai makes good, soulful, authentic music. In the climactic scene of the movie CROSSROADS, he played BOTH parts--his own, as the glam-rock boy, and Ralph Macchio's part. Steve Vai is a fantastic musician. I also think that Eric Clapton added something remarkable and original to the blues canon with that live version of "Crossroads."
As for the complexion of blues harmonica players on YouTube: most of them are white, but a surprising number aren't. I'm talking about living players, not dead players. Apart from our own Brandon Bailey, you'll find videos by Russ Green, Sugar Blue, Phil Wiggins, Broart (his monicker), and a handful of other players, plus my friend from the Virginia/DC area who has put up some great videos and whose name escapes me. There's a young guy we spoke about early on in the forum who lived in Europe for a while and had a harp/hip-hop fusion. He's now back in the states.
All of this strikes me reasonable, unexceptional, and pretty much what one would expect. I do think, though, that the contemporary blues scene has, floating within it, a kind of anxiety-of-whiteness, an almost tortured sense of wanting to "keep the blues alive" (whatever the hell that means) by bringing along "a new generation" of black players, out of a fear that if whites dominate the whole scene in a hegemonic way, something vital will have been lost.
The truth is, blues has always been a creole art, a racially mingled art. White hillbilly artists like Jimmie Rodgers were recording 12-bar blues back in the 1920s, and black blues artists were picking up on the "blue yodel." Blues doesn't need to be "kept alive," certainly not by white-run blues societies. Blues needs to be allowed to do whatever it wants to do, preferably without too much interposition on the part of Big Capital (blues theme parks, etc.). The artificial distinction between "blues" and "soul blues" (i.e., between contemporary blues for a mostly white audience and contemporary blues for an almost entirely black audience) needs to be understood for what it is, which is, among other things, a sign that white blues fans need to educate themselves into the full spectrum of blues, not merely the blues purveyed on the "official" blues circuit (clubs, festivals, blues societies).
And folks like us, blues musicians, need to take responsibility for our own educations, freeing our own minds, learning how to see beyond what Stanley Crouch called "the Great American skin game" so that we remain receptive to the full range of powerful, soulful musics that surround us. We also need to remain conscious of the political economies that govern the various musical subcultures we participate in. Meaning it's always a good idea to ask questions like, Who profits from this? What investment does this person have in the story they're telling about this music? Impatience with retrograde dynamics is OK--I began this thread from precisely that place--but it's also a good idea to allow for complexity and paradox.
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 3:51 PM
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jonsparrow
111 posts
Apr 16, 2009
4:22 PM
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well put.
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tookatooka
199 posts
Apr 16, 2009
4:36 PM
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Thanks Adam. Point taken. I can only comment from my own standpoint and my little bubble of perception is limited to what I see and hear on TV and radio. I don't have the kind of music scene that you can tap into over there so my knowledge of the Blues and music in general is very limited in comparison to yours and some of the heavy hitters on here.
Hey! I'm only learning blues harp for my own amusement but it has made me extremely grateful and respectful of the people who took this deceptively simple instrument and made it do such more than it was originally designed to do by complex playing techniques which they devised and perfected, In my little corner of the universe I don't see the tradition being encouraged which I feel is a shame because it was a great achievement under the circumstances that it all came about.
I'll leave the philosophy, politics and deeper complexities to others, I'm only here for a little light relief and I probably wouldn't understand it anyway.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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kudzurunner
363 posts
Apr 16, 2009
5:29 PM
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And I'm schizophrenic, as you've surely noticed. One moment I'm Mr. Calm, the reluctant webmaster; the next moment I'm Harp Guy, talking about bending the 2 draw and how booze inspires me. All of sudden a button is pushed and I'm Pierre Bourdieu crossed with Larry Neal. I really don't understand it.
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DanP
77 posts
Apr 16, 2009
5:47 PM
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There are some black blues singers who are more popular in the black community than they are with white blues fans. Bobby Rush, Martin Sease, Lynn White, Walter "Wolfman" Washington, and Ann Peebles are a few that come to mind. B.B. King is still popular with black audiences as is Little Milton. The chitlin circuit is still alive and well. The artists who record for Malaco Records are marketed to southern blacks. Many of the blues artists featured on the cover of Living Blues magazine are unknown to most white blues fans. While it's true that the audiences for some blues musicians such as Buddy Guy are now mostly white, that's a marketing thing. It doesn't necessarily mean that black audiences has turned their backs on blues.
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2009 2:55 AM
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jonsparrow
112 posts
Apr 16, 2009
6:25 PM
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blues is just old school. hiphop is the new thing. your not going to get super rich from being a blues man but you can get super rich being a rapper.
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isaacullah
183 posts
Apr 16, 2009
9:43 PM
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Adam: Oh no you didn;t just go there! You just punched my "Flame on" button by mentionig Bordieu! :)
Bordieu? Really? Bordieu as in "habitus and doxa" Bordieu? As in "death by theory" Bordieu? As in "The Berber House" Bordieu? As in writng sentences such as "structuring structures that structure and are themselves structured" Bordieu?
Why you gotta go and bring up Bordieu in our HARP forum for? Man, that brings up scary memories of my "welcome to grad school, here's some theory" class! You really are just like a typical professor-type! (said by one on his way to become a typical professor-type)
And to end, I present this emoticon:
:)
~Isaac
Have I been drinking? Perhaps....
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2009 10:44 AM
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Patrick Barker
231 posts
Apr 16, 2009
10:05 PM
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First of all that's pretty stupid if it's not near where Robert Johnson sold his soul
Second, notice the irony. "Let's build a big nice fancy hotel to commemorate the these blues guys, who hoboed around and slept in abandoned barns".
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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jonsparrow
113 posts
Apr 17, 2009
12:18 AM
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lol for real. ^^
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Zhin
206 posts
Apr 17, 2009
12:45 AM
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Hey Adam!
I just checked out the Carl Sims - It Ain't A Juke Joint Without The Blues...
I really like it. Can you recommend other GOOD music to set -that- dangerous mood? You know, when the kid has been tucked in bed and the missus has been complainin I been spendin more time on the harp than I have on her. What would you recommend? Marvin Gaye is just overplayed and too "clean". Help a brother out. ;)
It's also great to to know you like Steve Vai. I've watched him live and also doing the G3 thing before. Phenomenal player with a big stage presence. I got into Vai in the past because I used to listen to a lot of Satch.
Goes to show you don't always have to stick with traditional blues. It's fun to go crazy with different types of music. :)
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My Videos
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Andrew
209 posts
Apr 17, 2009
1:23 AM
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Isaacullah writes:
"As in writng sentences such as "structuring structures that structure and are themselves structured" Bourdieu?"
I was going to comment that an archaeologist friend once criticised Lévi-Strauss in EXACTLY the same way, then I notice on another thread that you are an archaeologist. LOL! What is this phobia of French intellectuals you archaeologists share? Is it that they are a too obvious antithesis to digging in dirt?
Actually I've read some post-colonial archaeological writings that suggest you guys should stick with the dirt and leave thinking to others!
(everything I'm saying is in jest, I hope you realise)
Now, if you wanted to attack Derrida, I might be on your side!
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2009 1:29 AM
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harmonicanick
243 posts
Apr 17, 2009
2:41 AM
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@ Zhin
If you like satch and steve vai (or as zappa called him 'my stunt guitarist') then try Paul Gilbert, he supported satch on his last uk tour and impressed me almost ore than satriani..
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kudzurunner
364 posts
Apr 17, 2009
4:03 AM
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"Let's build a big nice fancy hotel to commemorate the these blues guys, who hoboed around and slept in abandoned barns"
Patrick, if there's a God in this world, those will be the words that Theme Park Enterprises is forced to emboss on the arched entrance to their intended Hell. Abandon all hope, ye blues lovers who enter here! :)
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Zhin
207 posts
Apr 17, 2009
6:16 AM
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Oh I know about Paul Gilbert. :)
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My Videos
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Blind Melon
21 posts
Apr 19, 2009
2:23 PM
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It sounds to me like a couple of people are trying to take advantage of Robert Johnson and Clarksdale, MS. I have no problem with some sort of historical museum or even a venue that properly gives both their just due. I would rather see someone that is truly involved with the blues and prefer that they be from the area.
I find the discussion regarding black versus white blues very interesting.
I am color blind when it comes to blues. I do not judge an artist based on his color, but on how he sounds. I would say that at least 90% of the blues I listen to is from black musicians. That is not to say there aren't any good white ones.
Jerry Portnoy is a modern example of a great harp player. I think he holds his own while he was with Muddy Waters. On the other hand, Johnny Lang to me sounds like he is trying to hard when he sings (think whiney bitch).
I recently read this inverview with Jerry Portnoy and at the bottom, he gives an answer to the question "Why do white folks like the blues?"
http://www.harpsurgery.com/?p=195#comment-1155
By the way..."I was born a poor black child. I remember the days sittin' on the porch with my family, singin' and dancin' down in Mississippi..."
Steve Martin in "The Jerk"
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2009 2:32 PM
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Buddha
264 posts
Apr 19, 2009
2:38 PM
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Blind Melon,
I used to playing with Johnny Lang before his record contract. Aside from his dad being a complete control freak and ********* the thing that strikes you is Kid Johnny is very mature for his age. He's as genuine as they come and he was damn unique for a kid that was only 14.
I haven't talked to those guys in 10-12years so I have no idea what is going on now but back then there was a reason I subjected my brain and soul to playing blues.
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Blind Melon
22 posts
Apr 19, 2009
3:07 PM
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Chris,
I have never met Johnny, but I do think he is a talented musican. He probably is also a great guy. My comment was regarding his singing. Whenever I listen to him, it just sounds to me like he is trying way to hard to sound bluesy. Maybe that is the way he really sings. I was just giving my two cents on what I hear when I listen to him.
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Buddha
266 posts
Apr 19, 2009
3:13 PM
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BM-
That's the way he sings. Even as a kid he had a deep husky voice. To me he wasn't trying he just was. There are very few musicians I think are genuine and even though the entire band got screwed over when Jonny got his recorded deal, I have nothing to speak but the truth as I experienced.
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sopwithcamels266
4 posts
Apr 22, 2009
5:36 AM
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Read the original post with interest but sadly its not suprising.This kind of thing happens just about everywhere on anything people can get a handle on to make money.
Unfortunately you can fool alot of people some of the time.If it wasn't these people doing it, it would be someone else sooner or later.
The way to tackle it in my view is to go out and make the best music you can and create your own scene.To get others to do the same with similar interests in your area.
Then hopefully others migrate to your area and help develop the scene.Then the big cats want to come to town to play. Easier said than done I know. Ive had Jazz and blues clubs and venues over the years.
I think thats the way to tackle it. Others will always try and distaught the truth but creating new scenes etc is I think the best way to approach it.
Being a jazz and blues player, particularly jazz (not jazz harp you understand Sax, I do however play some blues harp)
Ive always kind of ignored the charlatons.For them what goes around eventually comes around and if your local scene develops then truth is truth.
I must say that that distorting History in this way is short of criminal.We have similar things in europe. Robin Hood location Sherwood forest. the King Arthur thing fact fiction etc etc.
It wouln't suprise me if eventually Robert Johnson was seen as a fictional character.His recordings were not him.
There are people in the UK that think that a certain playwright WS wasn't WS he was some one else and who will ever know now.
Its great that you have brought this topic up Adam,
Lets hope that its so bad no ones bothers to go.
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MrVerylongusername
265 posts
Apr 22, 2009
11:01 AM
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Dear Mr Canadian Themepark Tycoon
I was off sick and bored today so I made a nice poster for your new themepark. I hope you like it.
Lots of love
Mr. Verylongusername aged 39 3/4
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GermanHarpist
293 posts
Apr 22, 2009
11:28 AM
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Satire RULES! hehehe
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Tuckster
177 posts
Apr 22, 2009
11:33 AM
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GH--that's awesome!
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GermanHarpist
294 posts
Apr 22, 2009
12:14 PM
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Tuckster, Are you talking about MVLs post? Wish I was that creative...
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Patrick Barker
246 posts
Apr 22, 2009
6:16 PM
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lol muddy waters log flume
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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