Btw, I have tried that tuning (limited to 10 holes though), with half valves, full overblows (Joe spiers harp). I don't really like the half valved ones. The notes are too weak, I prefer overblow harp.
But I would still like to try it with triple reeds. I agree with what you are saying with regards to losing attack. I've got still the deep bends in the low octave, but the high octave might become very 'mellow'.
I still think it needs to be tried before I will really be able to make up my mind.
I agree with your last comment, but not for the same reasons. I am under the impression that the patent for such a harp is a limiting factor in its evolution. You have one company, as Hohner had with the XB40, making harmonicas like this. There is no competition to drive the market.
There are barriers to entry, costs, and quality. Strangely enough, X-Reed exists, which sorta makes the triple reed approach less of a monopoly on paper, but is it? I dunno know enough about economics to evaluate.
I think, and I am not passing an ethical judgement on this, that the fact that the SUB costs nearly $100 *more* in the US as in Japan is problematic. I think the quality of the harp out-of-the-box is disconcerning as well.
What X-Reed is doing blows my mind. While the basic principal of offering a range of tweaked harps with options for construction is not new, they are able to offer an upgraded product *extremely close to* regular retail.
This has to be in some sort of agreement with Suzuki, I'd imagine, but you'd be a fool in the US to buy a stock SUB 30 when you can order the X-Reed version for $10 more - and it should technically play better too.
You could, in theory, replicate this with other harps...dealer and endorser pricing make it possible, but the US costs (even for a dealer) of the SUB make this a very unique business model.
Me personally, I want a 14 holer, with a double magnetic slide AND enabler reed. :)
I have no idea how they are going to get the other magnetic slide on the Turboslide. As a special effect it's really frustrating not to have in on the draws, although it does still help deepen the bends.
edit: So, there are guys that do reed work, and comb work, and some cover work going on. Is anyone making their own reedplates?
---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2012 8:06 AM
@HarpNinja: Mike, read my last post (end of p. 2 on this thread).
X-Reed is NOT offering our custom SUB30s at below retail for a stock SUB30, either in the USA or UK. I received GBP £120 for your order of our base model. That comes to USD $195.09 at today's rates:
You are totally correct. I apologize, as I checked the conversion against the Euro and NOT GBP. That is 100% my fault and stupidity!!!!!!!!
I think even at $10-15 more than retail, it is a TREMENDOUS deal. I want to be clear, incase people interject I am implying otherwise, that I think the X-Reed approach is very clever and well thought out. It makes a lot of sense, and I would still argue that for a few bucks more, you are getting substantial bang for the buck!!! ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Reed plates are EXTREMELY hard to make...it is even super hard/impossible to get blank ones from companies.
There is, though, lots of examples of people removing reeds and replacing them with non-stock reeds - even between brands. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Thanks for clearing up the price issue, Mike. I was concerned, because that's the kind of misinformation that can cause problems. I just sent you an email also - ignore it now! BP
I replied anyways because I like corresponding with you, lol. Again, for the people who reed this a month or so from now, and as someone who has zero commercial in X-Reed or Suzuki...
If you are going to pay retail for a SUB, just pay another $10 and order one with a different comb and valve plate from X-Reed! ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Boris posted interesting points about the future of the harmonica; essentially how we all want the tone and soul of the diatonic with full chromaticism, and his assessment on previous ways to get it.
Overblowing is the most successful so far, but it does require very finely set-up harps that normally have to be customised by specialist harp techs at a high price. Overbending is also not easy to do throughout the whole range. Alternate tunings are another way to get more chromaticism without many overblows, and I'm honoured to see Boris and a few others exploring some I've created (PowerChromatic, PowerBender - or a mix). But they are never likely to become mainstream: Richter is too entrenched after over a century of embedding.
Boris says that the triple-reed harp in Richter tuning seems like a great new way to get chromaticism on the 10 hole diatonic easily by bending alone (which any player can do) without having to learn new tunings - but concludes that for him the SUB30 is not satisfactory in terms of tone and sound. On that basis he seems to write off the whole approach.
I think that's too hasty. It's important to distinguish between a whole concept and one embodiment in one harmonica. It's just early days, and things will improve quickly in these ways:
1. I think the SUB30 is just the first of a number of new triple-reed models that will come out in the next few years from the major manufacturers. So if you don't like the SUB30, there will be other options.
2. As a result of competition, prices will fall and keys will proliferate. The barriers to entry to the new style will be much lower, so more people will try it. That will feed back to better and better harps at lower prices. There will be a snowball effect.
3. That will take some time. For the moment small companies like X-Reed.com will fill the gap by offering the options not yet available to early adopters.
The potential is already audible via the YouTube videos posted by the likes of Filip Jers, Rob Paparozzi, Koei Tanaka, Richard Sleigh etc. The SUB30 was only launched in August! More and more of those performance examples will come to inspire others as time goes on.
In terms of sound with the only triple-reed harp available so far (the SUB30), it's generally agreed that there is potential for improvement. I think the SUB30 is similar in principle to the 1896 Marine Band, a great basic design that benefits a lot from customisation. But that improvement is already here.
Boris, before you give up on the whole concept, I suggest you close your eyes (to ignore the hype!), and just listen again to the soundtrack of the video below. It's played on that tired old warhorse, a C Richter-tuned 10 hole diatonic. Though it's only a limited example, it shows how the Richter harp can be born again in this expressive new format. And with some TLC on the harp, it can play nice too.
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By the way Boris, your English is fine!! No need to apologise in your signature :-)
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2012 9:30 AM
I think, though, that similar issues arise with each issue. For example, if the selling point of a SUB30 is the ease of play relative to overblowing, that is not necessarily true.
The stock SUB30, as you've suggested, need modification...just like a top end OB harp. It doesn't play well as a Richter harp compared to other stock pro-level harps. It can be noisey, and does, in fact, take refinement of one's technique. The new bends do, in fact, player really well OOTB once you get the hang of it, which should be mere minutes for a solid bender. The traditional Richter part is definitely not on par with $40-$90 harps.
I think a lot of people on the fence planning on getting a harp that plays like a Marine Band/Manji/1847 right from the factory will be disappointed. It is a great raw product right now, and it could very well follow the development of traditional harps, but it is a raw asset in its current state. It is also harder to gap relative to a Richter harp.
I don't know how politically correct it is to ask, but can other companies make a similar harp? I thought the whole reason the SUB hadn't been released was because of Hohner having the patent?
At any rate, I think, as previously stated, there is more than one way to play the blues. This should have a strong niche in the market, and it would be GREAT to get a very stable OOTB version. The note layout is fantastic for transposing licks, and it works great for blues (I still think choosing the right position is very important to avoid certain bends no matter how they are played).
This is a game changer, but I think there are some preconceived notions about playing more notes on the diatonic that are exaggerated - and I am not saying necessarily by Brendan.
My only reason to really be into the SUB is the note layout. I like all my harps better for Richter playing (and I use a lot of Crossovers gapped for overbends and without extensive customization), and I *hear* the timbre of the new bends and overbends as being near the exact same, but there are things that are flat out easier to play on a SUB then any overbend harp in the world.
1st position licks in the middle of the harp and those speed riffs based of the 4 hole all move to different octaves withotu any thought.
Mike, sorry to correct you again so soon, but Hohner does NOT 'have the patent' for the idea of extra reeds in harmonicas, and never did.
I already posted the story several months ago and publicised it quite widely to make sure that credit went where it was due. Anyone who is unsure of the facts should read it:
Thanks for the link, I am not too into the legalities of patents, and didn't know if when the original ran out that meant anyone could do it or if that meant someone else had to apply for the patent or whatever.
Hence, asking the question. I don't count the correction ;) as I asked a legitimate question and didn't make a declaration of anything (I once got a very nasty email from a famous harmonica technician for asking for clarification of a story I was told as if I were trying to pass it on as a truth). I wasn't implying that was the situation. I really didn't understand what the expiration of the patent actually meant.
---------- Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2012 11:31 AM
I also wouldn't know if Suzuki had or didn't have a patent on part of the SUB that would make it harder to replicate. I am not asking you to clarify that, just making it clear that I have very little schema around patent work. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Ninja, once a patent expires it's public domain. The only people who can't make it are the ones who died waiting for the patent to expire.
Of course, the way a lot of companies work it is they hold something back that is essential to the making of a product and patent that when the old patent is expiring, and if someone tries to patent it in the meanwhile they pull out pictures of prior art to fight the other guy getting the new patent. Ever notice drug companies come out with the 'controlled release' version of their drug just as the prior patent was expiring? Same thing.
Of course, it's less crazy than the copyright situation. Under some circumstances you heirs can hold a copyright for 125 years after your death. The idea in the first place was to encourage people to come up with new ideas without infringing on people creating new things from those ideas, but companies like Disney have pushed for extension after extension. :(
Kool design Brendon,but when those horizontally milled reeds fail its a $100 harp in the bucket instead of $40.You wanna do something for the harp community ,help them design longerlasting reeds.I think you're on the right track,but help a cracker out and give me reeds that don't fail first.
