I seem to hear the grunting a lot with modern players.Not so much with Delta or early Chicago blues.Is this a by product or necessary evil of playing the harp? Or am I missing some thing? Your 2 cents would be appreciated.
One of the comments my ten year old son made to me as I started playing more difficult licks was that he idnt like to be too close because of all the "gross" noises I was making. I was using my throat a lot to get the sound I wanted and was getting a lot of extra glottal clucks and grunts. It has taken a lot of work to minimize these.
Some players use these noises to good effect. Not unlike many good vocalist who can use percussive/ gutteral vocal effects when they fit.
i do this slightly on a couple of songs, though it isnt really what i consider a snort or grunt. it is a audible expulsion of air. for me, it is just showmanship. i only do it on stage (once or twice during rehearsal) to give the impression i am "workin' hard" to do my part.
Few people have the skill to really make something look easy. When you make it look easy, no one give you credit for your hard work, so you have to back off and make the effort show. It is a strange world we live in.
Yes,I certainly agree it's the more aggresive harder playing artist I hear this with. And I could see using the "sounds" as an effect.Prior to this post it just kinda made me think the player was "pushing the envelope"or just too passionate, maybe not even aware. Apparentely,however,for some it can be controlled, minimized or just plain put out there up front. Thanks for your 2 cents btw as you can see this is my second post & captcha is already a PIA,& this forum is difficult for me to "navigate" but thats OT & another thread sorry bout that
oops 3rd post if you count signing in :)
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2012 6:27 AM
SRME58- i noticed that at work. i do irrigation- service and installs. there have been some repairs that are a simple wire splice gone bad. however, if all of the wire connections are pulled out of the box, and the customer sees the tangled mess, they think i am a wiz. too funny.
i started to do the huffing after a very long 2 draw and needed to lose air quick after the verse. the band thought i was doing something particularly hard. so i kept it in the bag of tricks.
Cyco wrote: I seem to hear the grunting a lot with modern players. Not so much with Delta or early Chicago blues. Is this a byproduct or necessary evil of playing the harp? Or am I missing some thing?
At the risk of sounding rude, crude, unrefined and socially unacceptable to my well-intended compadres, I’m going to have to say that I agree and it’s a symptom of poor technique, (excluding any physical impairment).
It’s one thing if you’re making sounds rhythmically, musically and intentionally as a form of vocal percussion and quite something else if you sound like an asthma victim with uncontrolled gasps and utterances. Foreign grunts, coughs, and gasps are not part of the music. Rather, (I believe) that we should seek to minimize any such noises. We all need to breathe but I think we have to be conscious about controlling or at least minimizing those non-musical sounds.
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2012 7:58 AM
dang, noodles. you make it sound like we have the audio of the linemen during a steelers/ravens game with the addition of a women's championship tennis match going on all during the great hotdog eating challenge!
howsabouts some "pickin" n "grinnin" with a snort or two added for "sheitz" n "giggles" Gotta love HEEHAW...
Not to get to far off the subject, but I hate those ear piercing none stop horn sounds goin on during Olympic soccer matches! :(
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2012 8:09 AM
@ CarlA I was actually thinking the same thing. @ Noodles I hear a lot of really good players grunt in part of some songs and I don't think it's poor technique.
The first player I That came to mind is Adam. you can often hear him use is throat/diafragm/cough on some blow notes. I think in one of is lessons he says that it help with the timing, not 100% sure on this I might be mixing up a few things.
Martin ---------- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Isaac Asimov
rotflmao I thought Noodles was about to flame the hell outta me.Yes I know about pulling away,breathing through the harp,circular breathing etc.But even very good well known & accomplished players do it to some degree but they seem to keep it to a minumum.I notice even Jason does it somewhat & altho not my genre he has mastered the harp and is very umm inspirational despite his issues.Sometimes I wonder if that was part of why Sonny Terry "whooped & hollered" very rhythmic,musical & a breath of fresh air.So I'm not fighting a losing battle. Least not with this anyway. K. Again thank you people.
3 tries this time
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2012 10:03 AM
I think it’s best to leave specific names out of this discussion – besides, for every player you cite, I can cite one as well. I'm not trying to be judgemental, nor will I be pulled into that type of cat fight.
@Blues13 Since you mentioned Adam, what I can say is that Adam does it rhythmically. There’s a difference.
@Cyco I don’t flame. Usually I’m on defense trying to defend my position. ___ ___
Is there any player reading this post that “prefers” a player’s gulps and grunts as opposed too not hearing them? If so, speak up and tell me exactly how it improves or enhances the music. But before you do, I just want to restate my original thought:
It’s one thing if you’re making sounds rhythmically, musically and intentionally as a form of vocal percussion and quite something else if you sound like an asthma victim with uncontrolled gasps and utterances. Foreign grunts, coughs, and gasps are not part of the music. Rather, (I believe) that we should seek to minimize any such noises.
Sorry people my thread has been hijacked. I'm out. But feel free to continue your usual bickering back & forth. Thank you people for the helpful replies. Carry on. I apoligize if I sound bitter.
I just want to say sorry if my post seemed like I was looking for a fight. I'm not fluent in english as I used to be. Sometimes expressing miself is hard and this was one of them. I have to much respect for Adam and everybody on this forum to try and cause a fight.
@ Noodles that's exactly how I should have phrased it about Adam.
@Cyco sorry to have caused trouble in your thread.
Martin ---------- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Isaac Asimov
Never went through a snortin phase, but did go through a gruntin phase as I was reachin for another level in my harp playin. For me it was a necessary evil to accomplish hitting the notes I wanted to hit while keeping the power in my playing. Eventually muscles toughen up, you learn to relax etc, and the grunts naturally fade away. I'll still periodically let out vocal type sounds when going for certain notes during a difficult phrase and such but now they are usually at a much lower volume.
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2012 12:19 PM
" Cyco 5 posts Jul 29, 2012 10:34 AM Sorry people my thread has been hijacked. I'm out. But feel free to continue your usual bickering back & forth. Thank you people for the helpful replies. Carry on. I apoligize if I sound bitter.
2 tries" No apologies mate! Message boards of all types are always frought with over sensitive individuals. Let me try to give you an answer to your question. IMO, the grunts and snorts your mentioning are BOTH subconscious and intentional at times by many players, even some of the legends! Heck, two of my favorite players grunted and snorted like Momica Selles when they played-junior wells and Paul Butterfield. I think Junior Wells was more on the intentional side, while butterfield was more subconscious and unintentional IMO. Once again, this is only an opinion as it would be difficult to ask either of these performers for obvious reasons. I think that the level of snorts and grunts is also dictated by the type of vocal mic the performer is using. Some will pick-up and be more sensitive to these guttural noises. IMO, I think that their is definitely nothing wrong with these "noises". In fact, I actually had to practice quite hard in order to consciously make these "junior wells-like" percussive grunts and groans. I think stating that it's a lack of technique and breathe control since ad mentioned above, many of the past and current players have "grunted and groaned" in their tunes. Like everything else, music and it's artistry is very much a matter of taste. If you find what works for you and make it your own you'll go far. Make your own decisions in life, and take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt. Hope this helped answer your question mate.
Dang that makes perfect sense. The old time players probably did make those noises both accidentally or possibly intentionally. And missed the very good point they were playing acoustic or "into" a mic. Chicago style plays "through" a mic & amp. Jus did't make the connection , of course the amp would pick up a lot of extraneous sounds. Also as pointed out if I ever advance to that stage with practice & experience it will go away or at least be reduced.
I find some techniques require more air than others, or it's easy to run short of air if I'm not careful. Still developing my game. Splits and flutters I think I might go through a bit more air if I don't consciously conserve, and that can lead me to gasp at times. I try to eliminate those, other times there are passages that maybe require a big exhale at some point. Often I can work that into the song, but I think it's not always a good idea so I gradually work it out. Sometimes it's cool, sometimes not. Sometimes it's good to do it in parts of a song and also leave it out at other times. Sometimes it depends whether I'm playing solo or accompanied. Solo, rhythm sounds may work really effectively. Accompanied I think often less is more; just because it fits doesn't mean it has to go there, like those anchovies a few can excite the palate, too much is distasteful and overpowering. ----------
My harp guru uses a coughing articulation particularly on rhythmy stuff. I haven't anywhere near mastered it yet, but when he does it it sounds totally appropriate.
I do two things that sound a little weird. I do kind of a cough from the back of my throat to get the 1 overblow (Richter) going sometimes. And on the really high overblows 8 and 10 (I have a True Chromatic harp with no overdraws) I kind of purse my lips like when playing trumpet to push out the overblow.
I am hoping I grow out of these with practice, or when I am better at customising my harps.
--------- Since I learned to overblow, I don't use my car horn so much any more.
In response to one of the posts I listened to Junior Wells.And I do believe he would chuckle at my OP & say something like "Can't make an omelet without breaking no eggs." As far as hard work? Yep,slower more easy going tunes I don't hear it, the faster & more aggresive songs the more I hear it. Sooo it is a necessary evil to be dealt with. And can be minimized or used as another "tool".
Holy snikies 2 times to get past captch The Guard Dog this time.
T0 further elaborate:Snorting was a bad choice of words & should be discarded.Grunting is NOT groaning or moaning.Groaning & moaning IS 2 legit musical & rhythmic techniques.Grunting aka gutteral sounds is just something that has to be there to play that aggressive non stop style .One needs to be aware of it & keep it to a minumum UNLESS one is using it as a technique.Yes there are rules & we know what rules were made for :)It is done by the Greats & not so greats.Perhaps its no different than a jogger breathing heavy,can't help it.Also I realize if the amp is picking up the sound then the sound is there even if you're not plugged into the wall.Does that sound about right? With that said I bid thee ado.
Damn I know I had the code correct this time. 2nd try.
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2012 5:52 AM
And for me there are certain ballsy blues tunes where heavy emphasis aka >(cough/push of air) is required through out the song to keep the sound real and pertinent as opposed to under inflated and cheesy...
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2012 6:20 AM
My two cents on this topic: Personally, I've never felt the need to cough or grunt. Junior Wells, I believe, did what he did entirely for effect. More of a vocalized grunt, which I think sounds really cool. ----------
Didn't Adam in one of his earliest youtube instructional videos demonstrate that these were normal, desirable sounds that would be made as an aide to and/or by-product of regulating your breath pattern when playing an up tempo rhythm type piece?
somewhere in the first 10 or 20 vids I think.
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2012 12:15 PM
I think it's useful to play around with your grunting and how to work the mic to amplify or diminish it. I was actually asking in another thread about ways to actually mic those sounds specifically for some beat box sounds. (Isaac, as usual, came up with some really good suggestions on how to beat box the sounds I was making at more audible levels).
It's interesting, when I hear fox chases, there is a big difference in quality that I hear between the guys who control their calls in a musical way (barking notes that make sense melodically, and rhythmically), compared to people who just throw the sounds out. I think the same applies for 'random' grunts.
Jimmy Smith - In 2005, Smith was awarded the NEA Jazz Masters Award from the National Endowment for the Arts, the highest honor that the United States bestows upon jazz musicians.
Lmao, this is why you have to be very cautious about people's opinions regarding your own musical style, etc.
About those Captcha codes Cyco; it seems to be about how long you had the thread open. I haven't worked out how long you've got, but if you open a thread and type a quick message it's much more likely to work first time. ----------
SuperBee, according to the nice people at support, it's on a 15 minute timer. If you wait longer than that it will have changed. At first they thought I was crazy and didn't think it was happening until I spent a while writing down exactly how often I got it on the first try, and how often I got it on the second try. With a large sample they finally looked into it more, and they did extend the time from really short to longer. They say it has something to do with fighting spam, although I haven't been able to figure out what, unless they are serving the same one to everyone and only refreshing the system every 15 minutes. I've suggested some alternatives, including a little pop up with a fresh captcha when you hit submit, and a way for the captchas to turn off after a member has a certain number of posts, but I don't expect those features to be implemented anytime soon. It's something that would have to be done at the host level, not the individual site level.
@ Honkin On Bobo (I don't like the @ thing but it seems to be customary here, jus me) Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the vids.Still looking & haven't found the vid you refer to.I'm not asking you to do my homework for me but if you're still here it would be helpful if you could narrow the search down a little bit.I mean like he's posted maybe 400 or so vids & for me thay are not titled very well.I assume you mean youtube.
OT yeah timing out I'm slow as molasses & half blind lol I will quit posting tries
sorry if I sent you off on a wild goose chase. My recollection of it is foggy as I watched those vids a long time ago. I just have this vague recollection of Adam demonstrating the way to let air escape as you were playing something....and either in that video or a subsequent one i seemed to remember him playing a fast piece where I could hear the grunting sound, and i'm pretty sure he remarked about that sound, that it was a way of expelling stored air. But my recollection of it is all very fuzzy.
Also, please note that the video it appeared in would not necessarily be dealing with that as a central topic and so possibly not titled as such. Back in the day, adam was full of energy and multiple things might be covered in a single video as they occured to him in real time as he was recording.
Sorry, but I don't have the time to view them each individually. I would say that if you've actually watched his first 20 videos in their entirety, you have covered the part of his library I'm talking about. Yes, I mean his youtube videos.
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2012 7:27 AM
Oh no man that's cool.No apolgy necessary but I certainly accept it.When I search this time I'm gonna try to view jus the lessons & maybe get them in a numbered sequence.And yeah I kinda thought it might be buried in a vid & not addressed in the title.Sooo like the archives 1 page or vid at a time. Take care & have nice day. oh & TY
"Jimmy Smith - In 2005, Smith was awarded the NEA Jazz Masters Award from the National Endowment for the Arts, the highest honor that the United States bestows upon jazz musicians.
Lmao, this is why you have to be very cautious about people's opinions regarding your own musical style, etc." ---
Smith is certainly a wonderful musician! His grunting RUINS his music. I cannot even stand to listen to his songs anymore. He certainly did NOT recieve that award because of his lousy, misplaced grunts.
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2012 8:56 AM
After listening to the recording, I heard LOTS of noises. Before that recording, I had no idea how noisy I could be. And, as said above, poor technique was/is to blame.
Thanks to band volume level, most of those sounds are never heard. But if you listen to a track of yourself, and no other instrument, you may be surprised at what you hear.
Noodles Read my OP. Adam is using that gutteral sound as a techniqe.I will not judge a person for the way they choose to play.If you have nothing constructive to contribute PLEASE STFU stop trolling & get out of my thread.Nuff said.
Jim Great idea. I should have thought of that. For all I know I may be grunting but due to concentration and/or selective hearing I don't hear it.I'm not a musician so I don't have any thing recorded.But I can come up with some kinda cheesy set up.I can do it acousticly and I can amp it up.But I have to come up with some thing to record with.It may take a little time.
OT Moderator If this thread takes a nose dive into degradation I respectfully request you to please lock it up tighter than a drum.
Let’s recap shall we (Then, I'll respond to the comment in the prior posting)
1. Cyco starts this thread.
2. Discussion ensues.
3. Cyco bails out and writes: Sorry people my thread has been hijacked. I'm out. But feel free to continue your usual bickering back & forth.
4. Cyco reappears
5. Honkin on Bobo then writes: Didn't Adam in one of his earliest youtube instructional videos demonstrate that these were normal, desirable sounds that would be made as an aide to and/or by-product of regulating your breath pattern when playing an up tempo rhythm type piece?
6. Then Cyco replied to Honkin on Bobo: Still looking & haven't found the vid you refer to…. I mean like he's posted maybe 400 or so vids & for me thay are not titled very well.I assume you mean youtube.
7. Since I (Noodles) am familiar with Adam’s work and in an effort to help a new member, I find Adam’s video (to help Cyco) and post it.
Here’s how Cyco says thanks by launching this comment at me direclty:
If you have nothing constructive to contribute PLEASE STFU stop trolling & get out of my thread. Nuff said. --- ---- ----
Cyco: There is no such thing as “MY THREAD” and I’m not a troll. If you can’t conduct yourself in a gentlemanly fashion, you don’t belong here. You have revealed yourself in this thread. When you don’t like something, you want to take your ball and go home. You lash out without merit or forethought even when the evidence lies before your eyes in the very thread YOU started. Everyone sees it. Then, just like the child you have shown yourself to be, what do you do? You run to mommy (the moderators) to shut the thread down if it heats up after your provocation. I guess you just don't have the intellectual fortitude to finish what YOU started. You don't have to wait for me to "degrade the thread" - you've already degraded it.
@MODERATORS: What has happened here is painfully clear and everyone can plainly see who started the disturbance with the unwarranted insults. We just went through one of these fandangos and apparently the group lost a very good contributor that was respected.
@My fellow members: Sorry guys, but this character is a real piece of work and shows no etiquette. . . .
Last Edited by on Aug 01, 2012 12:10 AM
Deford Bailey Ice Water Blues 1928, Palmer McAbee Lost Boy Blues not sure of the year 20's or 30's I think but I do hear the grunting. So the definitive answer to my question is yes its there & you should deal with it as you choose. I'm going back to my cd before I get into a flame war.
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2012 11:19 PM
Cyco, the '@' thing is just something from around the web. (I think it was twitter first). On some sites it emails that person that you responded to them with a message. It doesn't do that here but people do it out of habit and to let you know, in a long thread, that they are answering to something you said specifically, rather than to the whole thread.
Once a thread is posted, in will meander a bit. That's the nature of a web forum.
I'm not sure what you are talking about with the editing other people's posts. No one can edit someone else's posts (except admins, and it will note in the 'Last Edited' that it was a admin.) Do you mean quoting? None of your posts have been edited by moderators.
As for locking the thread, why? Noodles, I think, found the video Honkin' was talking about for you. Then you yelled at him and called him a troll! Please reread the forum creed. Assume people are trying to help.
"Prime example of why I do not like the @ thing or "editing" other peoples posts.
Maybe it would be more accurate to say using peoples statements out of context?" --- No forum member has the ability to edit others' posts. If you are speaking of *quotations* such as what I have displayed above, then these are Perfectly reasonable. You wrote something -in text- on a public forum, isn't it then perfectly reasonable for us to provide a quotation of the text we are referencing? Do you want us to provide full APA parenthetical citations and bibliography as well?
@Cyco: Welcome to the forum! We're glad to have you. FYI, we don't use the text phrase STFU (or its spelled-out equivalent, "Shut the fuck up!") around here. It's abusive and thus out of line with the forum creed. You're new, so the mods and I are happy to cut you some slack. Just please don't do it again--and no big deal.
About grunting and all other percussive/expressive sounds that aren't notes: I think they're a good and natural part of the blues harmonica tradition, although of course, like any other technique one can name, they can devolve into affectation or dominate through overuse. I never consciously tried to emulate any player's grunting, but I discovered fairly late in my own development that I did a fair bit of grunting in certain contexts. It's especially noticeable in the head of "Thunky Fing Rides Again"--at least when I'm playing it unselfconsciously and well. It helps with timing. And of course the blues, like all other African American derived music, find ways of keeping the drum alive in other ways (including patting juba on the body: hambone hambone), so grunting in a rhythmic way comes partly from that. It also bespeaks the effort that some players put into their playing.
No big deal either way. I certainly wouldn't insist that any player use the technique. When I talk about the topic in group teaching moments, I basically frame it as "Here's something that it turns out I do, and it helps my timing. You should be aware of it, and you should ALLOW it, if your body seems to want to do it." That's how I frame it.
Junior Wells and James Cotton both grunt a fair bit--Wells more than Cotton, but Cotton certainly does a bit of it. "Creeper Creeps Again" is all about making the effort, the heavy explosive outbreaths, audible, and a part of the music.
Edited to add: Actually, I learned about explosive throat popping from Nat Riddles in 1985. He did that on the 36 blow octaves.
Last Edited by on Aug 01, 2012 12:37 PM
