Thanks to the very helpful advice offered by Mark, Rick, Superbee, Greg, BBQ Bob and Mike over on the feedback thread, it's become apparent to me that I'm at the point where I need to either lay out some serious cash on a bigger amp, or find a (hopefully somewhat less expensive) way to get a good, amp-like sound going straight into the PA.
A (non-blues) friend told me recently that his entire band has done away with individual amps entirely--they all use modeling software on their laptops plugged into the PA.
I've skimmed through the archives here, and a bunch of you have used modeling pedals by Digitech, Zoom, Line 6, and Tech 21. I've also done a little reading on software packages like Revalver and AmpliTube. The variety of alternatives is pretty bewildering, so I was hoping some of you would be willing to share your experiences, comparisons, and cautions regarding going ampless here.
on richard hunter's web page there is samples of various sounds you can get from the digitech with his patches. i love using it. minimal fuss in setting up. very easy to carry. and inexpensive!
They are all "good" options-- it's just that each one has its own very specific and unique learning curve. If you have the time and patience to learn, you could make any "ampless" rig sound amazing. Many people (perhaps most people) have neither the time nor the patience to do that, however. If that's you, then you are WAAAY better of going with an "established" route, like the Digitech RP's, where you can buy patches pre-made from someone like Richard Hunter who's already figured it out for you.
Personally, while I think the digitechs sound great, and I was able to get great sounds out of them, I think their patch-based system of storing effects is a bit limiting for my playing style. That's why I moved on to the Zoom G3, which is more like a real pedal board with stomp switches and controls for each of three individual effects. Tone wise, there isn't much difference between them, so if you aren't the kind of person who needs/wants to be able to stomp different effects on or off during a song (or at least not to do this very often), then you will be perfectly fine with an RP, and I'd recommend that route. If, on the other hand, you want that extra control, then the G3 is the most cost-effective way to do that (but not the only one, the Line 6 M9 that HarpNinja uses also sounds great). ---------- =========== I S A A C ===========
Oh, and the problem with computer-based systems is that you need to either really really learn the keyboard shortcuts, or you need to buy a midi-usb interface so you can control it with your feet, for another $50-150. You at least need a good audio interface to get your mic signal into the computer (you can't yous any kind of crappy "input" jack that comes with your computer, you need a real audio interface), and so that's at least another $150 for a halfway decent one. Even with free software (like JACKRack or Rackarak), you still need to buy this extra hardware to make it functional, so you aren't really saving much, if any, dough over a dedicated multieffects unit/amp simulator. Plus, who wants to lug their laptop around to every show they play?
I-pad stuff might be better since you can use the touch screen, but I don't have one, so I can't comment. ---------- =========== I S A A C ===========
I will be branded a heretic for suggesting this, but why don't you just play into the PA ala James Cotton. He gets hellacious tone from the PA. If you work on it, you can get the PA to sound pretty close an amp. Plus, playing through the PA is the great equalizer.
I am by no means an expert but I got one of these Behringer TUBE ULTRAGAIN MIC200 http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MIC200.aspx It was relatively cheap and you can get some good sound out of it like ozharp on youtube I think he may have video using it through a PA but not sure.
You would still need some effects pedals for delay etc..
Just throwing that out there if this isnt even remotely close to what you are after my bad.
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2012 2:34 PM
I love my tube amps but I've used my Harp Commander IV for all gigs this year and it's worked great. It took awhile for me to build confidence to leave the amp at home. For awhile I was using my Fender Concert as a table to set the HC on. I'd simply leave the standby on so the pilot light was glowing. I'd always get compliments on how good my amp sounded because the HC created the illusion that I was playing through the amp rather than the board. LOL Try lots of different approaches. Find the one that works for you. All the best on your search! Jay ---------- Music speaks where words fail.
I been thinking the same thing. Harpninja has a vid on the Tech21 Blonde. I've been using their stuff for years in my studio... great gear! I was thinking about building a small pedalboard for harp:
Tech21 Blonde> MXR Carbon Copy (already have this pedal)> Whirlwind DI Box (got this too.)
I can always add amp in there for a stage monitor too if I want, ---------- Cole Stevens www.colestevens.net
eharp, Isaac: I'm leaning towards Digitech at this point, especially after having discovered that they have delay, reverb, a simple looper, and other effects besides amp modeling. I may go for something more flexible later, though. I need something fairly simple, quick. These guys are drowning me!
Joe_L: Might as well give it a try. So the next question here is: what's the best kind of mic for going straight to the PA?
norrin_radd: Another one for the list!
9000: What do new Harp Commanders go for, roughly? Coast2Coast is sold out and doesn't have any pricing info on their site (that I can find).
Cole: Hopefully he'll chime in here, but I think Harpninja is currently using the Tech21 Para Driver DI for his main rig and their Bass Driver DI for his blues rig.
Harpninja depending on his gig requirements seems to use a variety of setups. He was particulary impressed using the Blonde with a powered QSC K5. Very loud rig, low feedback threshold,built in speaker emulation and massive bottom end. He was running an Ultimate 57 on the vid he made.
The Blonde is suppossed to be very harp friendly and goes from clean to crunch with a twist of a knob. I've seen some pretty informative vids on youtube, but all are demo'd with guitar of course. ---------- Cole Stevens www.colestevens.net
stepping up to the mic is certainly the simplest solution, potentially. helps if the sound engineer has good communication skills and understands how you need to be able to hear yourself. you can wear earplugs; that helps. personally i dont like the sound but i think you should be using them anyway. i decided to have an amp on stage after a run of gigs where 1 gig would be good and the next i couldn't hear the harp. i gig it was all good until i needed my F harp, then i couldnt hear it. that song i used the F for required me to play in unison with a part on the keys and unable to hear i just had to lay out..playing one wrong note would sound dreadful...a couple nights later, same deal with the F harp...different engineer, different venue...thats when i started taking an amp. but for sure, with good pa its an easy solution if you can rely on the engineer. ----------
Dave, I don't see why you need to spend a lot more money on anything. You're not going ampless, you're just changing the mode in which you send your signal to the PA...whether you mic up, line out, or use a modelling preamp, or a mic plugged into the PA - that PA is what you are using to get the sound accross. Whatever you put between your mic & the PA is entirely up to you, but I am a big advocate of using what you have to hand. There's an element of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" in your OP.
I'd get a nice big 10W minumum (more W would be better) 15ohm resistor and replace the speaker in your amp with this. Run a voltage divider consisting of a 2.2K 1/2W resistor & a 220 to 270ohm half watt resistor off this 15ohm resistor. Take the "+" (tip) signal from the junction of the 2.2K & 220/270ohm, "-" (sleeve) connects to the other end of the 220/270ohm resistor wich is connected to the Output Transformer common/ground. You might find a 12AU7 preamp tube works best with this? Your tone settings on the amp will be very different to when you used the on board speaker (less volume, more highs).
Your amp now won't generate any feedback on stage, you just have to cope with avoiding it through the monitors.
Even if you had this line out arrangement installed in a box by a local tech, I doubt it would cost much over $50?
I'll try and sort out a diagram & upload tomorrow...
...or just do like Joe L says and use a PA mic (SM57/58) into the PA. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Well, I just happen to have an SM57 with a bulletizer, so I'm definitely going to try going straight into the PA with it...but now I'm totally GASing over some of these modeler pedals I've been looking at.
Mark, I have no plans to get rid of my VHT--I'll still have other uses for it. We're working up an acoustic set, for one thing; practice at home for another. Regardless, I don't think I'm the only one who would appreciate seeing that diagram.
The older I get the more I love playing through a PA... I have found that a SHURE BETA 58 works great - it has extra boost and presence on the low end which really lends itself to great playing - either off mic sonny boy style or a more cupped approach like below (as I am sure other have addressed if one completely muckles onto the mic it could spell disaster but a loose cup can still produce a big sound)...
If you're going to play into a vocal mic and go straight through the PA, then there's a nifty little tweak that will make you sound a lot better. I discovered it purely by accident about 15 years ago.
Ask the soundman to turn up the trim control on your channel of the PA. That's basically the preamp control. When he does that, he'll need to roll back your channel volume--he'll need to lower the slider, if his amp has sliders.
When you turn up the trim, which is to say overdrive the preamp on your channel of a solid state PA, you'll get some overdrive, which is to say some compression/sag/thickening of your sound. It will be a ballsier sound.
Joe makes a very good point way back up there. with the right mic and a channel on the p.a. set just so you can achieve very good harp tone. personally my only issue with that is, my voice needs in a p.a. are about the exact opposite of my harp needs in a p.a. channel, so i'd need 2 dedicated channels, not too likely in most situations i find myself in. i love my amps and mics too much anyway. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
5F6H wrote: "I'd get a nice big 10W minumum (more W would be better) 15ohm resistor and replace the speaker in your amp with this. Run a voltage divider consisting of a 2.2K 1/2W resistor & a 220 to 270ohm half watt resistor off this 15ohm resistor. Take the "+" (tip) signal from the junction of the 2.2K & 220/270ohm, "-" (sleeve) connects to the other end of the 220/270ohm resistor wich is connected to the Output Transformer common/ground. You might find a 12AU7 preamp tube works best with this? Your tone settings on the amp will be very different to when you used the on board speaker (less volume, more highs).
I'll try and sort out a diagram & upload tomorrow..."
I just downloaded the RP355 manual from the Digitech site. It has a pair of 1/4" outputs, and a pair of balanced XLR outputs as well. Both sets of outputs can be fed directly to amps or a mixer/recording device, according to the manual. Each pair of outputs has an amp/mixer switch.
The 1/4" input jack is definitely hi-Z, though, so a low-Z mic will need an in-line transformer.
Here's a bit of follow-up, in case anyone was wondering whatever happened.
Playing straight into the PA worked fine, IMO. I liked the sound, but my front man said he preferred my sound when I was using an amp.
The RP355 was lots of fun, but it definitely introduced its own feedback. I tried adding a Danelectro Fish and Chips graphic EQ pedal to notch out the frequency that was feeding back, and it worked; but then I lost quite a bit of midrange. Also, the pedal blew out after about an hour of use (according to reviews on Amazon, this has happened to others as well). I exchanged it for a new one.
Then--lucky me--I was *given* an old Roland Bolt 60 amp and neither volume nor feedback seem to be significant problems for me any longer. At this point, I think I'm good to go--except the thing weighs a freakin' ton.
@Jay 9000 – “I'd simply leave the standby on so the pilot light was glowing. I'd always get compliments on how good my amp sounded because the HC created the illusion that I was playing through the amp”
Love it!!! I think I’m going to gut my Peavey Heritage ,install some 9V. LED Xmas lights and use it for a briefcase to carry my harps, a mic, and Digitech. Maybe that will get it down to about 45 lbs.
But seriously, I think you need to practice on what you are going to play with. If you are walking into a blues jam with an amp modeling pedal to hook into a free mike cable, you need to know what it’s going to sound like. I picked up an RP-350 on Craigslist and I have been playing it through some amps, but it would be a complete crapshoot to walk up and plug it into some PA in a bar. Wouldn’t it? Or would it? Should I try it?
However, after obtaining this RP-350 I have been starting to reconsider this whole “TUBE Amp” thing. It has a ’65 Twin through a 4x10 model that sounds pretty good. I saw a Peavey XR800 on Craigslist today for $150.
The problem with playing through the PA (even with a device) is you need a PA to practice your techniques. It takes practice, like anything else. Walking into a jam and playing through the PA without ever trying it is a recipe for disaster.
so you buy a PA speaker and get used to it. you can always pack it in your car for a gig in which you are unsure if there is a PA provided. that is what i do. if i aint sure, i come prepared.
Rick is dead on here.I don't mind just plugging into a PA (esp through my Harp break pedal) but and it is a big but ,i like to know the PA.They can be very different animals inherently and also how they are being used is a biggie too. I had a bit of a disaster last week sitting in with a band who had 3! vocalists all with their own monitors and cables all over the floor to the mikes. The PA was a huge no namer that had no redeeming features at all. I felt uncomfortable trying to just find room to stand but then came time to play eech,feedback city at any worthwhile setting on my pedal. Even their vocals didn't sound that great either. Another lesson learn't..I think maybe its time for me to look at getting an amp..as Rick says whatever your choice of amplification its best to have it available to prctice on and get familiar with.
I'm a fool for simplicity. Give me more than 2 or 3 knobs and I start having painful flashbacks to high school algebra class. :-o
With that said, I LOVE my Lone Wolf Harp break. Three knobs, can run on a 9V battery, and it's very light and portable. Sounds "ampy" into the PA with any typical harp mic (545, bullet, SM57, etc.) and I have no feedback problems with it.
Here is my ultimate guerilla gig arsenal: My Harp Attack loaded with a battery, Ultimate 545 mic and mic cord, a cord to run to the PA, and a few key harps. With this setup, I can parachute into any gig situation. :-)
I'm working with Line6 POD HD now. Still no completely get perfect results, but it weight tripple less than my amp and my pedalboard with more functionality.
---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
I don't own a DI box. In the biggest room I've played the HB into the PA, their sound guy did employ one. Otherwise, it's just been a 1/4" line directly to the board.
I picked up a Digitech RP350 for $50 and recently a Digitech Vocal 300 (free) on Craigslist. An amazing number of sound options, and who's to say what's going to happen when I plug it into an unknown PA?
I am presently in the process of familiarizing myself with that multitude of options and saving the more promising setups. Soon, I will leave the amp at home and venture down to the jam with only a pedal and an SM58. Wish me luck.
The resident sound tech has told me to show up early and try out the setup. If I play my cards right maybe I can turn it into a happy hour SBII Tribute set. I wonder if I can buy a patch for that?
Last Edited by on Sep 22, 2012 8:50 PM
This evening I filled in for a buddy in a large band (two guitars, sax, trumpet, trombone, bass and drums) at an outdoor festival gig. I just brought my Ultimate 545 and Lone Wolf Harp Break. I ran a 1/4" from the HB into the sound guy's DI box, and tooted a few notes for a sound check. He gave me a good dose through the monitors and I was able to hear myself just fine, with zero feedback. My wife was in the crowd and said there was no problem at all hearing me over the rest of the band. I gotta say, I LOVE having a little grit coupled with the sonic firepower of the PA system. I'm not selling my little Marble Max amp -- it's too handy for small gigs. But at the same time, I'm also not doing any shopping for a big amp. Call me a happy camper.
It was relatively cheap and you can get some good sound out of it like 
