I see alot of different model amps for sale by the same manufacturers like Gibson, Supro,Premier,national,masco, Fender,Valco,silvertone, etc. and wanted to know which are the top models to choose per manufacturer for that vintage saggy compress quality.
I want to limit the amps from 5 watts to 18 watts or small to medium catagory and has to have either single 8,10,12,15 or multiple speakers.
Can we compile a list going by manufacturer. Below some of the names I listed might be by the same manufacturer.
Fender Gibson Multivox Premier Supro Masco Silvertone Valco National Magatone
I'd add the Brugera V5 amp. It's all tube and I've found that I can turn the preamp way up and really get a distorted, gritty sound, or use the tone settings and keep things clear. It also has a reverb dial which I think works well. In addition, this amp (which is under $200 new) has a power attentuator which allows you to turn the wattage down to 1 watt (from 5), or even .1. This allows you to wail away without blowing down the house. I can't say if it is better than other 5 watt amps like the Fender Champ 600, or Epiphone Valve Jr., but I like it a lot. Also, a friend who is a pro harp player with a number of vintage amps, tried it and was quite impressed. Just sayin'. Rich
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2012 11:42 AM
Kalamazoo Model 1 and Model 2. Perhaps the best tone of any listed so far. They're single EL84 amps so depending on who you talk to they're 5-8 watts and have a single 10" CTS Alnico speaker. ---------- /Greg
I love my '61 Gibson Explorer GA-18T two 6V6. I recently played through a '78 Fender SF Princeton, and liked it a lot! The Princeton was punchier and louder than the Gibson. Champs are good, too. ----------
There are many great vintage amps, each with their own & often unique vibe. Compiling a list of manufacturers is, unfortunately pretty pointless...because virtually every manufacturer made an entry level single-ended amp (one power tube - doesn't really matter if that's a EL85/6V6/6L6 or 7591 etc. none were built to exploit max power), a medium sized push-pull amp (2 mid powered tubes for around 12-15W) and a larger stage amp with either 2x6L6, or 4x6V6 in push-pull for <30W.
These factors have much more of a bearing on your "compressed saggy" tone than the factory where the amp was made.
The small SE amps are very flexible tone-wise and can warm the front of the note by compressing it off, can sound huge at moderate overdrive and recorded can sound like a wall of sound. Tend toward rasp, bark & crunch when really pushed. For a saggy, compressed sound you might hit on it by being very careful with the volume control, but generally this is not their forte. I'm not ruling them out, as I am speaking generally (you never know for sure until you try), but think the 15-30W range sounds more like what you are specifically asking for.
If I was looking for "saggy & compressed" specifically, I'd look for a push-pull amp, drawing lots of current through a pair of 6L6 at low voltage (under 400)...perhaps 4x6V6. There are old Dano's & Silvertones that fit this configuration, but they often have an extra gain stage that tightens things up again - some made specifically for accordian lack this stage and sound looser.
A filter choke, before the power tubes so ALL the tube's current goes through the choke, can also help with more sag (most amps after '57 have the choke between power tube plate & screen nodes, which tightens the sound as only a few 10's of mA go through the choke). Look for 5U4 & 5Y3 rectifiers, rather than 5V4 or 5AR4, though these can be substituted with 5Y3 in cathode biased amps. 5R4 can also provide more sag than a 5U4G. If you do fit an amp with a saggier rectifier make sure that you carry a spare of the same type...if the amp fails and you fit the original type you could burn up tubes & transformers.
Typically Fenders from the mid/late 50's onwards don't fit this bill (higher voltages than their rivals), though some 5D# and certainly 5C# & earlier fit more so.
Valco/National/Supro - these may all be the same amp/manufaturer, though Danelectro @ Red Bank NJ did make some Supro amps.
You may want to add early 60's 6V6 & 7591 equipped amps from Ampeg to your list, some have been rewired to take 6L6 but these run low voltages (~350vdc) and are cathode biased. I'd steer away from fixed bias amps as these tend to be tighter & punchier (though a tech can covert/switch to cathode biased & soften up a fixed bias amp to some degree).
Posting a clip of a harp sound that you think fits your description might be useful? Do you have an amp at the moment that you think is "nearly there"?
Is this the sort of thing you mean...?
I'd personally be looking more at push-pull Premier/Multivox, National Tremotone, Gibson, Masco MA17N, Ampeg Jet/Reverberocket based on your opening statement. Bear in mind that they will all sound a little different to each other.
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Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2012 1:56 AM
PA heads like the Mascos and others are good. I didn't mention them since it seemed as though guitar amps were more the focus. I like my two Stromberg-Carlson PA heads and my Knight PA head. Definite sag on the SC AU-57 when pushed. Much louder than the Gibson, using 2-6L6s. Choice of speakers/cabs are a major factor if you use a PA head. ----------
Thanks for the detailed tube tone overview 5F. I'll copy and paste that wisdom away for future garage sales. When my wife compares spending $200 on clothes to me spending $200 on an old airline or small gibson amp - I remind her that her's are expenditures - and mine are 'investments'
Thanks for the Sloppy Drunk too. Killer version. If memory serves , Sonny Boy I did that one too - and maybe wrote it? ----------
5F6H has it exactly right. For a nice saggy tone you might try a 2x6L6 amp, probably cathode biased. I think my 1953 Masco ME-18 sounds best for this, but we all tend to defend our own purchases, so your opinion may differ.
I use an old 5R4 coke bottle rectifier in my 1991 Bassman RI, which makes it less stiff and a bit more saggy. Very nice tone.
Sloppy Drunk is commonly credited to Lucille Bogan, Leroy Carr covered it amongst others, but I don't doubt that Rogers' version was inspired by SBW1 (as were quite a few of Rogers' numbers - Going Away Baby, Mellow Chick Swing, My Little Machine spring to mind off the top of my head), Walter's harp certainly seems to be.
Yes, that is sort of the tone I am describing. Not overly distorted but has that edge (Sag). I've heard that SAG on some bassman reissues when properly setup as well although not really Vintage.
@5F6H I just wanted to thank you for bringing your knowledge and understanding of tube amps to this forum and others. I learn something every time you post. ----------
Damn you - Now I I've got that Premier 120 on my CL / garage sale hunting list. Of course it's the type small vintage amp I'd pick up without question anyway, - if the price was right.
Magnatone "mother of toilet seat" - anyone have one of those ? ----------
Sloppy Drunk, I agree that the tone is absolutely classic. Benchmark. That said, LW is most of it and discerning the amp from the him(enough to measure the amp) is a reach. Perhaps not for 5F6H.
Ha ha, I do a lot of listening but I'm not superhuman! :-) Yeah, I think there is some symbiotic thing going on, where LW's style & the amp gel beautifully...this is just one track that popped into my head after 528Hemi's comment on sag. Sloppy Drunk is from the same session as Mud's "Oh Yeh" and "I just want to make love to you", though Muddy's cuts seem to be better quality more, hi-fi. Not a million miles from the LW tracks recorded shortly after "I got to find my baby/Big Leg Mama"...sure a "benchmark" LW tone, there are other tracks that have a similar bright, but saggy sound (My babe/Thunderbird). But quite different to say Mud's "Country Boy/She moves me/my own fault" or the Juke tone...these all seem tighter, less saggy, a bit raspier, but just as LW-ish?
Reverb on the Sloppy Drunk session may also be having the effect of "brightening" the harp tone, as it often did...to see what I mean listen to Mud's Hoochie Coochie Man, She's So Pretty (reverb on harp) then Jimmy Rogers' Chicago Bound (same session but dry harp sound, noticably less bright & chimey) one after the other.
Another thing to be aware of with saggy amps, is that the harder you hit them with breathforce, the more highs you can kill/squash off, ideally the amp's design should be doing the sag without you having to push it, just by playing regular/light so that the notes don't all dull off & splurge in to mush. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
I just give you credit for being a fanatic. I appreciate being able to take advantage of it, so thanks. I play and that's the reason I'm into gear. The technical details get overwhelming to me. I'm really interested but eventually it's not fun enough. I have gotten complacent though and my sound has suffered. I upgraded recently and it's been great. The ultimate 57 has been the best new toy. Someday very soon I will be digging into my own small amp collection and getting them back up and singing. I have about 20 awesome 5-20 watt amps that I started collecting years ago. Masco Gibson Fender Magnatone National Premier Danelectro Kay Silvertone ... I'll come begging for advice soon enough.
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2012 6:38 PM
No, it's not my day job/main source of income...starving ain't much of a living! ;-) If you know anyone who'll pay me to listen to amps & old blues records be sure to point them my way! :-)
I used to do a lot more amp repair/service work, but if you are going to do that seriously then you have to take every job that comes through the door, which means typically fixing the same old issues, on the same old (usually new manufacture) amps...it can get disheartening...not to mention the noise related rows with the neighbours. So now I just take the jobs that interest me & tinker with my own designs.
The listening kind of developed from modding amps for harp, we had a couple electronics engineers in the area, but they just worked by "the numbers" & would rip out your NOS 12AY7's & replace them with new Chinese 12AX7 "because that's what the circuit called for!". When people are trying to explain what they are looking for tonally in either mods, or if they think there's a malfunction, you have to somehow develop a vocabulary and establish if/how/what can be applied to their amp electronically and your ears (assessing tone, or problem artefacts) become as important as the multimeter (a diagnostic tool).
Musicians (of pretty well any instrument) tend to refer to certain players as tonal references, which can get you looking for the right ball park, but most prolific artists have many, different sounding recordings...narrowing down albums or tracks helps get you IN the ball-park reference-wise.
Also, I am slightly obssessed with Chess (& Universal Studios) records & have been listing the ones I have (only the tip of the iceberg) & listening to them in chronological order, rather than artist/release date order...this sometimes shows up different aspects & trends that aren't so apparent if you say listen to Muddy only, then Jimmy Rogers only, etc...
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Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2012 12:08 AM
