I play amplified with loud blues and rock bands through a '84 Fender Super Champ with it's original stock 10" speaker. I'm currently using a 1990s Shure green bullet and using the overdrive channel on the Super Champ. No pedals.
I'm never loud enough and when I turn up there's the feedback. These are loud bands I'm playing with and they'll never turn down their volume so it's frustrating.
Recently I heard about using the DigiTech RP pedal with the Hunter patches and going through the PA at clubs and theaters. In theory it sounds like it could solve my volume and feedback problems.
The problem will be monitoring. If you go direct into the PA with a loud band, then traditional floor wedges will be as much as a problem feedback-wise as an amp.
You can't bring a knife to an automatic weapons fight. You're turning your amp up to the point where it feeds back and it is still not loud enough. Frequently, small amps just aren't.
You CAN make amps more harp friendly and feedback resistant. But that only makes a small difference in maximum useful volume. In your case, you need a BIG AMP to compete. Plain and simple, tried and true, been there, done that. ---------- /Greg
I have a RP255 with his patches. I tried them first with an Ultimate 57 than a SM58 and then a AKG D5...all of which should be feedback resistant. I found all the amp patches to have too much gain to use with a band before feedback, but that could be user error. The DI patches worked ok.
It was a lot easier for me to dial in a Tech 21 Bass Driver DI to get a raunchy blues tone through a QSC K10 powered speaker (using a custom wood mic from Greg H.). I can get crazy loud with that and still have a dirty tone...WAY louder than the RP patches.
The size of the amp isn't so much of a factor in the feedback as the gain the amp is running on. As Greg is very fond saying, "Gain is not the same thing as volume." The extra voltage in higher gain settings is, in my experience, the leading cause of feedback when playing harp. Especially with solid states. If you can reduce your gain setting, be it with a knob, or swapping or pulling a tube, and then bring your volume setting up to compensate, along with your EQ/tone adjusted accordingly, I'd bet your feedback issue might get closer to being resolved. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
My Fender SuperChamp has a built in 'lead' drive that I use and it gives a nice dirty tone but yeah I think it must contribute to generating feedback. Thing is if I don't use it then my tone is clean which I don't like. So...
Well...how is your cupping and playing technique? I generally favor dynamic mics, but the bullet I have sounds overdriven even when playing straight to PA or studio monitors.
You can get a very good blues tone using the right mic and technique. The amp doesn't have to use a lot of gain. Honestly, in a loud setting, a high-gain tone (even without feedback) isn't going to cut through the mix.
I am only speculating, but it is my belief that the majority of players try to get a dirty sound by cranking gain on their amp to make up for poor mic technique. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Sounds pretty sweet using a vocal mic straight to PA...
Here is probably the loudest rock harp player in the world, lol...
Awfully clean sounding too. High gain harmonica tones kinda suck anyways. I can't think of any blues greats who had really high gain tones other than maybe Sugar Blue...but in most instances he sounds cleaner live than in studio. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
"Won't a bigger amp just feedback more?" No - a bigger amp has more power, more speaker and can get a lot more volume on stage and out front before feedback.
If you have enough gain to get feedback with an amp then you have enough to get to the amp's maximum usable volume. Most guitar amps, particularly those with multiple tubes in the preamp section - have WAY, WAY, WAY more gain than that. Lowering the gain makes the feedback threshold more like a gentle hill than a razor-edge peak - making it easier to control. You can actually play CLOSER to the feedback point because of this, ultimately allowing you to get more volume - by LOWERING the gain. ---------- /Greg
" My Fender SuperChamp has a built in 'lead' drive that I use and it gives a nice dirty tone but yeah I think it must contribute to generating feedback. Thing is if I don't use it then my tone is clean which I don't like. So..."
That was gonna be my other question for you...whether or not you were using an overdrive or boost setting. I agree with you. Those settings do give you a cool gritty raw distortion. Problem is that it doubles your gain level if not more. I used to try using that on my solid states. Even tried a Danelectro FAB Distortion pedal once. They always made me feed back like a mother. The problem, as Greg kinda touched on, is that those settings were built into the amp with guitarists in mind. Which is great for guitarists. But as I'm always having to explain to non-harp players that I play with onstage, a mic is gonna pick up a helluva lot more signal than a set of guitar pickups. And that's gonna result in feedback.
Mike's right. Microphone technique and amp EQ can help you get that dirty tone pretty easily. Thats why I tend to favor bullets for the most part. For driven, ballsy tone, I use my bullet/amp rig. Being right up on the mic and cupping it tight will definitely get you some results. For clean stuff, I just play on my vocal mic and use hand expression through the PA. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Icepickphil- If you can hear yourself, then the solution is to mic up the Super Champ, or have a tech install a line out, and run your amp through the PA.
Don't run it through the monitors! That should give you plenty of volume without an increase in feedback.
My band is quite loud, so I have considerable experience with this.
Several of the above comments/suggestions are consistent with what I have found.
First of all, if you use the lead/drive channel to get distortion, you will most likely get feedback at lower volume levels. If you use the clean channel and turn it up using good mic technique, you will get the tone with higher volumes without feedback than are possible than with the lead/gain channel on. It will break up when turned up on the clean channel if you have good mic technique. I have found this to be true when playing through the Peavey Classic 30, the Peavey Delta Blues (2-10 or 15), Fender Blues Junior, Fender Blues DeVille (and Hot Rod DeVille), Bassman (and RI), and Fender Super Reverb (and RI).
But.. good mic technique is critical for getting the tone. Different mics will have different distortion and different feedback thresholds, so you also might experiment with trying different mics with your amp. Sometimes a cleaner mic with a smaller amp will still break up good, but achieve higher volume before feedback.
Another point mentioned by Rick is hearing yourself. If the band is loud, but your amp/mic combo is loud enough for you and the band to hear, you can either mic or line out to the PA, and reinforce the sound to the front of the house. I agree that you shouldn't use monitors to boost stage volume as it will likely lead to feedback. In order to hear your small amp better on stage, put it on a chair or amp stand, or tilt it back so it is aimed closer to your ears, not the back of your knees. If it is aimed more toward your ears and is behind you, it is also aimed more toward your mic, so you have to be careful about the mic pointing at the amp, and keep your body in between the mic and amp. Or you can place the amp to your side.
I will sometimes tilt my smaller amp back in front of me, like a monitor, when playing with a loud band, and mic it to the PA mains. This puts the sound aiming at the back of the mic and straight at me from the front. If you and the band can hear you, that is loud enough. However, you then depend on the person running sound to take care of your sound level in the PA.
As Greg suggested, the final answer is that if your amp is not large enough for the band sound level on stage you can use a bigger amp. This lets you control your sound. If you can get the stage volume lower, that would be better. A large amp will be heavy if it is a 4-10 amp, but will be loud enough to be heard.
Mic technique is still a critical factor. I have sat in with bands and at jams at times, and used the same amp and mic as other players. While other players had struggled with thin tone and feedback, I was asked to turn the amp down as it was too loud on stage and in the room. This was in the last 7 or 8 years. Before that I struggled with the same issues of tone and feedback.
When using a big amp in a smaller room at lower volumes, you can carefully experiment and try the lead/boost channel to add a little distortion to your tone. I would suggest still using very little gain and have the master up pretty far if you try this.
If stage volume is so loud as to require a Super Reverb or Bassman to be heard, I suggest you use ear plugs to save your hearing. I lost some hearing from playing in loud bands without ear plugs. Marshall amps and cymbals...
Really great responses. I appreciate the way Doug summed it and added his own experiences. It isn't possible for me to have one amp that does it all. But everything offered to icepickphil is the truth, especially for getting the most out of whichever amp you choose. Thanks to all for sharing how it all goes together.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2012 8:14 AM
@eharp: Cupping is a major factor in amplified tone.
I own a Super Champ and I wouldn't use the boost anywhere but my bedroom. Way too much gain. Also, the gain channel works off the reverb driver so you lose that too.
Try it with the master on 10, treble off and volume and bass to taste.
Last Edited by timeistight on Aug 08, 2013 2:57 PM
Icepickphil- I frequently mic my amps for gigs, even my big amp. This gets better coverage in the house and can help reduce feedback problems.
Doug is right: Sitting the amp on a chair might help you hear it, but it also might increase feedback potential.
It is not always possible to run through the PA at jams, but at club dates it is usually a good idea. I've seen many of the best touring harp players in clubs around Denver (the same clubs I play) and they are always mic'ed up, even with big Bassman, HarpKing or SJ amps.
@eharps - of course, your tone first must be established acoustically and you need internal resonance. And so on... I didn't put that in because I really got tired of acoustic tone always being the primary focus when anyone was talking about amplified tone. Yes, tone from within, etc.
If you have at least decent (not necessarily spectacular) tone, then how you cup the mic makes a big difference in what comes out of the amp. Mic choice make a big difference, too.
@icepickphil - I have not yet played through a Super Champ with my green bullet. If you are correct and you really cannot get enough volume without using the lead channel, and the lead channel feeds back, then you may need to use another amp or the PA. Or try different mics.
When you use the lead channel, have you tried turning the master volume all the way up, and then bringing up the gain slowly?
Does your '84 SC have different voices like the modern ones? If so, see which is most feedback resistant.
On all the amps I have used, if you turn up the volume on the clean channel, it will give you a distorted sound with higher volume before feedback. On amps with master volume and gain, I max the master volume and slowly bring up the gain.
Doug, yes I've tried turning up the master volume first and then bringing up the volume gain control. I can have both up to 10 and the volume is still low for harmonica using the green bullet. The only way to get the SuperChamp reasonably loud for harmonica is to use the lead channel which is kinda overkill.
I've also got a '71 Princeton Reverb (I'm also a guitar player) and I have the same problem with low volume. I'm thinking it must be my microphone. Maybe it's time to get a new one...
If you can turn that PR all the way up with a hi-z mic plugged in there is something wrong. I don't know those 80s champs but gain and master on 10 should be screaming feedback territory on any other amp I have encountered. ----------
This: Greg: "You can't bring a knife to an automatic weapons fight." That is the bottom line. You can mitigate issues but if YOU want to be in control of your sound you need something that can "compete". I've dealt with this issue for years, and a lot recently. Pre-amp tube adjustment, EQ, amp placement and the best mic I could get: this weekend I had my 4-10 Concert on stage with 4-guitar players and a Bonham on drums -not an ideal situation, for sure. I could hear myself but the sound man did eventually put me in the PA (no monitors). Technique is a huge issue too. Shit in, Shit Out.
Something is definitely wrong with your mic if you can turn your amps all the way up without feedback. MVLUN's guess is the most likely - might be setup for low impedance. There could also be something wrong with its volume control - or the element could be bad. That's the least likely but possible.
"I've seen many of the best touring harp players in clubs around Denver (the same clubs I play) and they are always mic'ed up, even with big Bassman, HarpKing or SJ amps."
Most of those guys have suffered hearing loss or are well on their way down that road.
I used to play through a Super Champ on occasion in the late 80's with a Green Bullet. Achieving feedback was relatively easy. Your microphone may be wired low-Z.
Greg's advice about getting a larger amp is sound advice, if you play out frequently. You'll be much happier in the long run.
What would probably make you happiest? Finding a group of people to play with that better manage their volume.
"I don't know those 80s champs but gain and master on 10 should be screaming feedback territory on any other amp I have encountered."
For sure. A Super Camp is a loud amp for its size -- louder than a Princeton, definitely. I don't turn mine past 3 and I'd never use the lead boost with harp.
@icelicjphill: I believe a bullet mic will normally put out much more signal than a guitar. It doesn't sound as though yours does, so there is likely a problem.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 4:46 PM
Joe L -- "Most of those guys have suffered hearing loss or are well on their way down that road."
No, I don't think that is the reason they are mic'ed up. It's to get better coverage in the house. I'm not sure it is any louder for them on the stage. I doubt they are in the monitors.
I have sympathy for any harp player losing his hearing, but I bet it's more from screaming guitar amps than from standing in front of a harp amp. That is what makes my ears ring.
The top is pretty complicated as it is for all my solo stuff. I use the wireless, M13, and Sans Amp for rock stuff. The bottom one is my blues rig.
I always go straight to PA and use a monitor (I bring my own as my amp). My QSC K10 sounds great and can rival a MUCH larger amp. I don't have a way of demoing volume differences that will translate well. Any suggestions? I suck at recording, but I am learning. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
There is no impedance switch. To change it you need to open the case and rewire - instructions were included on the original Shure data sheet, but I'm guessing you bought this used.
If you bought it new and didn't rewire it - the fault is elsewhere.
Open it up and describe what wires are soldered to the lugs.
Still: Open it up and describe what wires are soldered to the lugs. A separate point is that using any of your gear right requires a lot of investigation. Also, if somebody offers to diagnose something for you take advantage of it. Before the web I had to find Big Walter to ask him myself.
99S556 is technically the model number. The KD may be a type of serial identifier, I dunno. But its a good element. Wouldn't mind one in my Cherry Bomb. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2012 9:43 AM
icepickphil: Do you tongue block when you play? If so, can you bend notes while TBing? Also, are you able to play overblows?
The reason I ask is that, each time I got comfortable with one of these techniques (first overblows, then TBing, then bending while TBing), my resonance and tone improved and I was able to generate much more volume without blowing any harder (using LESS force, actually). Just something that I noticed along this long/winding path of learning to play blues harp. Might not have been the same for everyone. In other words, YMMV.
Thanks for the suggestion MN. No I don't tongue block or overblow. Yet. Those are both techniques I want to get into practicing. I live in the NYC area and hope to take some lessons from Dennis Gruenling in New Jersey. Right now he's not teaching much as he's on tour.
One thing to do, if you trust the sound guy, is have them mic your amp to get you in the mix right, use your existing amp as a monitor, and use earplugs. Strangely, earplugs help you hear yourself better as you get more conduction of the harp sound through your jaw to your ear while they cut out the rest of the band. If the band is that loud, you probably should be wearing them anyway. I use alpine party plugs and they do not color the sound too much
Gruenling, nice -wish I could do that. He'll be near me in August, maybe I could fork up some $ for a lesson while he's here. You have (IMHO, usually not so much H) set your sights on the right place though.
Ok - now what's soldered to what at the jack end? One of the wires should be unconnected, black is the high impedance out and red is the low. Blue is the shield. Is the red or black wire soldered to the tip lug in the jack? Is the free wire well insulated to prevent shorting?
