I agree with Ryan. I have purchased $5 harmonicas that have a great 6 ob. I recently purchase a $50+ harp in the Suzuki Olive that would not ob on hole 6 at all because the reed gaps were huge.
If OBing is to become a part of your style of play, you MUST learn to gap the reeds. Not that hard to learn. 10 minutes with a new GM of any key and 1,4,5,6 all ob and 7,9,10 all od.
Interesting comments here. First of all, even for just slamming the reeds closed to get them to sound, you really need to think about gapping.
My thoughts from a wealth of experience and experimenting...
The #1 issue with overbending harps OOTB are the very squeals you can get. This happens on all brands, most often with the overdraws, but also often with sustained or bent overblows.
I get a ton of this with the stainless steel harps, slightly less with Suzuki, and most rarely with Hohners.
Often, this is fixed with gapping on the Suzuki and Hohner harps regarding overblows. The steel harps need more work than that, especially on higher keys.
IMO, the biggest bang for the buck is to learn to profile reeds and gap. This can help with pretty much every 5 and 6 ob on a harp and make them extremely useable. 4 is likely to be trickier on low harps, and will often rattle. The ODs on low harps can work solid like this too - just be careful not to set them so tight they choke.
Most OBs can sound nice with just profiling/gapping. Most ODs can sound with just profiling/gapping, but the timbre will be crappy and they will probably squeal is sustained.
If you get a nice custom - and I would only recommend a few customizers as most don't really get OB set-ups - you'll at least know where harp meets technique. The hard part about learning on a non-custom is you don't know when it is the harps fault or your own.
Overbend harps do not necessarily need super tight gaps on holes 1, 4, 5, and 6. The ODs are a little trickier, with 7 being the hardest, but again, although gapped tighter there, they shouldn't choke under regular breath force.
All this being said:
I would pick a stock 1847 behind a Manji/Olive. I would pick a Crossover or Special 20 before a Golden Melody, and any of the Hohners before a Suzuki.
The GM and Marine Band Classic, IMO, are always gapped wide for OB playing compared to the Crossover...NONE of these harps are intentionally set up to OB, though, so realize that.
I like Golden Melodies, but they are harder to setup for great overbends compared to any Marine Band. It can be done, it just takes patience. It seems on most MB harps, less work is involved.
I agree, Hohners seem easier to me. Is it because the reeds are not as stiff?
I also agree that reed profiling is important.
That said, I must say that I have all keys of stock GMs (I just gapped them) and have pretty good success on overbends on all of these harps. Reed squeal has never been an issue for me..high, low, and bending the overbends.
Technique is under-rated on overbends. A 6 ob that someone just happens to pop (hate that term) is miles and miles from a smooth, controled overbend that comes easy. I'm with regonzab..practice practice practice. Mike,I have heard your harps are fantastic overblow harps, but player technique needs to be up to par.
All my own harps, save two, are just profiled and gapped and I can OB anything I want to. GM's turn out fantastic, that isn't what I meant.
I can take most MB's and get them to play OBs well with very little thought or effort - that doesn't mean I do that, I just could.
With GM's, I find I have to pay more attention. I also find that they are more likely to have squealy ODs. This is easily fixed, but it takes the time to do it.
I've said this a lot, but I don't spend much time on my harps because I don't get paid to do so, lol.
I profile and gap...then tune. I can set up a harp for myself in less than 30min even if I have to drill (minus tuning).
At my SPAH seminar, I'll show exactly how I do that. I would've at HCH too, but my sister-in-law had to go and get married that weekend!
I can't comment on overblowability of the Olive or the 1847, but here is a list of all the OOTB harps that I've tried, grouped according to ease of overblow:
Group 1) Seydel: Solist Pro Hohner: Marine Band Classic, Marine Band Deluxe, and Golden Melody
Group 2) Hohner: Special 20 Suzuki: Manji
Group 3) Hohner: Blues Harp Bushman: Delta Frost (Same as Suzuki Harpmaster) Huang: Star Performer
Group 4) Lee Oskar's
Group 5) Various cheap-o harps made by the Shanghai Guoguang Harmonica Factory Co. (Johnson, cheap Hohners, Suzuki Folkmaster, etc.)
All the harps in group one are both easily overblown, and produce very stable overblows. Group two overblow easily, but overblows are less stable (advanced customisation would likely solve that, but we are talking OOTB here). Group 3 is a bit difficult to get an OB, and OB's are quite unstable when you get them. Group 4 provides a pitiful squaaaaak most of the time, but it is possible to get the OB to sound for a brief second before it falls apart again. Group 5 just doesn't really do it at all for any span of time.
These days I mainly play harps in groups 1 and 2. Of course, they ALL can benefit from a basic gapping and reed profiling, which is the extent of my customising work these days. After that basic work, all of my harps overblow very well. I've been playing overblows seriously for about 3 or 4 years now.
PS, The one odd-duck harp I've got these days is a Low-C with Seydel Session Steel reedplates, but Solist Pro covers and combs. It overblows very easily and is very stable. I'd put it in Group 1, but I can't comment on the stock Session Steel. I'd assume, based on the fact that it's a recessed comb harp, it'd probably be in group 2. ---------- == I S A A C ==
"The hard part about learning on a non-custom is you don't know when it is the harps fault or your own."
..... is worth repeating.
As someone who has just learned how to overblow in the past 3 months, I can attest to the frustration of trying to overblow on the "wrong" harp. The "wrong" harp being one that is not set up to overblow. Even though Marine Band Deluxes and Crossovers are not "set up" specifically to overblow they are pretty easy to overblow Out of the Box. Custom harps are obviously even more so.
About three months ago I was playing on my A Crossover and just "went" for a note that musically I thought should be there. I didn't think about it. I just played it and what I played was a 6 overblow. Had I not been playing the Crossover, that note would likely not have appeared. That was my Aha Moment because I finally understood what it was supposed to sound like and feel like.
The marriage of technique and equipment is what enables you to do things on a harp that you previously could not do. Poor technique and poor equipment will handicap you. You can have good technique and poor equipment and you are still handicapped. This is why the pros and top amateurs are so particular about their instruments. It unlocks doors that you didn't even know where there.
There is a lot of good advice here but I would be very leary of ranking the overblowability (is that a word?) of harps based on make and model. There seems to be as much variability between harps of the same model as there is between one model and the next. Key amy also be important. I have a Crossover in E that I can get 1,2,3,4 and 6 to overblow but my D crossover won't overblow 1. I am not sure that another E crossover would do as well but I have no real incentive to buy another E. I have Manji's in A and D and the D oveblows better, is it key or manufacturing variability? I don't know.
I also wonder if I have been affected in a "Piglets magic ear muffs" kind of way by Honers add copy and that is why I can overblow the Crossover better.
From what I have read and experienced I expect that the manufacturers have not gotten the process control on gapping down to a science in a high volume manufacturing environment.
I agree with STME58 ... " There seems to be as much variability between harps of the same model as there is between one model and the next. Key amy also be important."
Gapping and profiling ... true, that's what must work. At least what I mean with profiling. 'scuse my english skills. What do you do when you profile? What do you put in that word? When I read profiling I read looking over the reed's curve and where it starts ... which should be at the base or as close to the base as possible in my opinion. The shape of the curve is another story. My preferance is to rather decrease existing curve than applying à curve to the reed if I find existing curvation off. Do you also include other reedwork such as sizing, flattening and even chamfering in the term profiling in this case?
Profile means how it looks from the side. The first profile is the milled thickness along the length of the reed. The second profile is the shape (curve, flatness) along the length of the tongue.
I will say that I think a Bb or B harp seems to OB easiest when you consider holes 4,5,6. Slightly below mid-range.
One hole OB is easier on higher harps and overdraws are easier in the G to A range.
That said I have a low F Promaster that I have no problem getting a fat 1 hole OB on. I also have a high G GM (Todd Parrott retuned a F# for me) that plays a solid 10 overdraw. These notes will very rarely, if ever be used, but it is good for the one thing that has not been mentioned.....
Yes, muscle memory is needed in every aspect of harp playing..but I also think muscle development is important. I look at my low F and high G harps as the donut ring on a baseball bat. If I can get these notes then everything in between comes much easier. Playing these harps and these notes are like lifting weights to me. You develop strength and endurance.
Be patient and give OBing a fair chance. I played at jams and such for over a year before I got brave enough to use one. I can't imagine life without them now.
I'm using a stock GM in the key of D below. I simply gapped it myself. The part I want to share runs from the 8 to 12 second mark in the video. The long note is the 6 overblow.
My point is with proper technique, harp, AND muscle development, you can make overblows into a very useful part of your playing.
Good stuff mentioned in these subsequent posts. Yes, from my experience, I find that the key of the harp DOES make a difference in the "ease" of specific overbends. The difference is notable even between harps as little as half tone apart (Bb to B, for example). There are "sweet spots" in the tonal range of the harmonica where overbends seem to be more amenable. It may have to do with reed physics (lenghts, widths, thicknesses) or embouchure/resonance or both (most likely), but as you go up or down in key, there is always one overbend that seems to come the most effortlessly on each harp, which one it is seems to be related to the key. On Low harps, it's up in the high holes (your overdraws), and on high harps, it's down in the low holes (your one OB that was mentioned above). I think that the reason most OB playing is done on mid-range harps (A thru C) is that their "natural" overbending range is situated right in the middle of the harp (holes 4-7), where it is most useful for typical position playing. That's certainly true of my own overbend playing.
RE: profiling. For me, I've had best results by making sure the reed is flat (no radius of curvature from tip to base), and that the gap is set by a single consistent angle at the base of the reed. YMMV, and I suppose that there are as many theories on reed curvature as there are customizers, but I find that this approach yields good results for me both for OB stability as well as for general bending and clean unbent note playing. ---------- == I S A A C ==
I'm going to be difficult here and say that most of the aforementioned harmonicas will produce some kind overblow. Personally, I've had okay luck with Suzuki and Seydel and better luck with Hohners (minus blues harps and pro harps). You need to find somebody in person or over the Internet to guide you.
Over the past three years at HCH I've taught at least one person a year how to hit overblows on stock harmonicas. Many of these players had only a few years of experience.
This most recent year I taught a very capable player named Destin (I think he's a member on this forum) how to overblow in about 20 minutes. He had never done it before. He had purchased Howard Levy's instructional videos and told me I did a better job explaining it to him. This is not a knock against Howard's instructional videos; it was just that person to person connection that made the difference. That's all he needed besides the determination to do it. This was on a stock Marine Band key of C. He hit the 6 overblow and the 5 overblow. I was seriously impressed to say the least.
I'm on skype intermittently. Hit me up if you use it. My handle is dan.ridgeway.
Good luck on finding the best OOTB harp for overblowing. You have had two great harmonica technicians tell you that adjusting your harp is the ideal route for getting where you want to be. I have to wholeheartedly agree with them as I followed that path.
Regarding gapping and profiling .... Thanks all for your input. Personally I find the curvature sweet spot when the reed is flat passing the reedplate/slot, meaning that the reed should have à slight curve in its resting position. IMO OBs can be quite stiff and differ in tone ... to set the reeds that bending is possible makes the OBs come to life ... with vibrato and sweet bends. If not they are only good for as passing notes ... I have found that there is à sweet spot in the reed settings, compromising action and OBs in à way that quite hard attac is possible as well as bending OBs up to the next blow note, giving for example blow 5 or 6 à different tonal character using 4 or 5 OB instead. OB 1 is still à mystery for me though ... how do you guys do it?
---------- The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by on Jun 25, 2012 3:19 PM
Got home today and revisited my full collection of harps for overblowability. Of course, most of them have been tweaked by me (see above), but I still notice some very acute differences in the base overblowability of different brands.
Very friendly to OB set up. After set up, OB's come easy and are sustainable with good timbre and pitch: Hohner: Marine Band Classic and Deluxe, Golden Melody, Special 20 (especially if put on a "sandwich style" wood comb!) Seydel: Solist Pro and Session Steel plates on a Solist Pro.
OB's possible, but squeally even with after OB setup. Even with set up, I cannot sustain OB in proper pitch, but can use as a passing note: Bushman: Delta Frost (same as Suzuki Harpmaster) Lee Oskar (made by Tombo) Powerbender (Brandon's "own brand", version 1, made in China)
Not possible to evoke an OB. Even with some set up (albeit minimal), I couldn't get an overblow to sound on any key: Johnson Blues King ---------- == I S A A C ==
