It does my heart good to see him looking healthy and it also does my heart good to see him back in the game, making an impact. When you think about it, guys in days of old kept what they were doing under a veil of secrecy. That goes for the blues, Murad, Minnevitch (and he wasn't even that great a player), were so secret. Peter Ruth's stories about taking lessons from Big Walter Horton always amuse me, from what I recall, it was a lot of Walter playing something and telling young Peter "now you do that." Even if things weren't secret, there wasn't a lot of information out there. I started playing when I was a kid before the internet existed. I had John Gindick's book and tape and that was it. But the times are different. Information about playing anyway, is widely available and Jason has contributed a great deal to all of us, but especially this young generation of players who have a closer connection to him than to a lot of the guys older generations look up to (and most of us did the exact same thing by studying the Walters and not guys from the 20s who inspired Little Walter's generation like Noah Lewis, Gwen Foster, etc.) There have been few periods of time when something happened that radically changed our instrument. I can think of maybe five times. This is one of them.
And I think someday, when this young generation comes to fruition and becomes the dominating force, we'll be able to see clearly what an impact Jason had on shaping that world. I saw a Youtube calculation once that Jason had 5 million views. That's quite an impact. The same, of course, can be said for Adam and it should. Similar things could be said for a few others. I am very happy that Jason is adding new contributions to our harmonica world.
Jason talks very openly and modestly about his limitations (there aren't many)... but he knows how good he is ;) On that thing Jason is talking about that he can't do, I think he's talking about this. This guy may have even invented it:
Oh, that is a lot different than what I thought he was talking about. I thought it had to be some kind of complicated tongue thing that only Gwen Foster and about five others could do... ;) ---------- David Elk River Harmonicas
I suck at this technique but have increased my speed dramatically by tongue blocking one blow out of the left side of my mouth, 2 blow out of the right, 1 left, 3 right, 1 left, 4 right, 1 left, 5 right, 1 left, 6 right, 1 left, 5 right, 1 left , 4 right, 1 left , 3 right, 1 left, 2 ,right. 2 left, 3 right, 2 left 4 right, etc.
I agree with Jason that the super fast element is genetic, but I disagree in that I believe a pro level speed can be developed.
Scratch My Back is a definitive example. Hubris maybe, but I could absolutely help Jason learn this -no genetics necessary. I've never done skype but other than being in person I guess we could do it that way. As much as he's taught me it sure would be awesome to help him with something. It's a TB technique issue and the limitation is apparent in equating TBing to octaves -which is completely different. Jason know's the difference but I've never really heard him TB notes like Big Walter does. He could though. The players Jason mentioned all have great tone that's based on TBing and that's what makes the technique work.
Jay Gaunt also does this technique extremely well. I can do it, but not as fast as most players. I wonder if it really is just one of those things that isn't possible for everyone, kinda like how some can curl their tongue but others can not? I tend to agree with that idea.
I can do it, but I doubt I'll ever be able to do it as fast as others can. My tongue just doesn't move that fast. But, I am still practicing.
I think Madcat has 2 tongues. LOL.
Last Edited by on Jun 14, 2012 5:39 PM
If JR tried to do this for a considerable time and still can't there must be a genetic element, IMHO. I can't curl my tongue. I couldn't trill until about six months ago. Just getting into all the tongue-related stuff. Lots of cool sounds to explore. Can do it while driving too without endangering myself and others.
Genetic? I concede, possibly, but I'm skeptical with respect to this technique. So, put my money where... Ha. I will attempt to describe in text… Summary first: It's an up/down TB warble/slap to the right side of your mouth. It’s more muscle control and some speed than it is shaping of the tongue. It happens on one side of your mouth, which is why the muscle memory of octaves can get in the way. The key, I think, is in the TBing approach to single notes on one side (95% right for me) with a split second piece of the chord just before the single note. You can’t really discern the chord but only the single note. It’s a punch, or slap, but your tongue stays down to articulate the single note. The milli-second of chord is where a lot of big sound comes from. Couple that with embouchure etc. and you get tone. TB the 3 blow on an A harp with a split second punch first on holes 1-2 first and the E gets big. As important as tone is here I digress a bit. This approach to TB is where the warble/slap technique comes in. If you properly TB this way then the warble/slap technique is a lot easier. Again, an up/down TB warble/slap to one side.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 7:37 AM
Your email is very confusing to me. I will try and repeat what you said except where I am very confused:
You said: It's an up/down TB warble/slap to the right side of your mouth.
What is going up and down?
Define warble.
To me, a slap is when you play a chord, say 1 2 3 4 blow and slap your tongue onto holes 1,2 and 3, blocking them out and leaving 4 blow to be played as a single note out of the right side of your mouth.
You say: It’s more muscle control and some speed than it is shaping of the tongue. It happens on one side of your mouth, which is why the muscle memory of octaves can get in the way. The key, I think, is in the TBing approach to single notes on one side (95% right for me) with a split second piece of the chord just before the single note. You can’t really discern the chord but only the single note. It’s a punch, or slap, but your tongue stays down to articulate the single note. The milli-second of chord is where a lot of big sound comes from. Couple that with embouchure etc. and you get tone. TB the 3 blow on an A harp with a split second punch first on holes 1-2 first and the E gets big. As important as tone is here I digress a bit.
This seems to be an explanation of tongue slapping. Correct?
You say: This approach to TB is where the warble/slap technique comes in. If you properly TB this way then the warble/slap technique is a lot easier. Again, an up/down TB warble/slap to one side.
That's interesting. I never thought to actually move my tongue back and forth to make this effect happen. I just make a four-hole octave block and shake the harp like a normal warble. Is that wrong? It sounds the same to me!
Michael, Yeah, Given the exceptional effort you've put in to explaining things with accurate language I'm sure you understand it's hard to get the right words. So yes, it's tongue slapping and it is your tongue going up and down. My take is that if you TB as you (we) described then the trill technique follows pretty naturally with some practice. I do think you need to be pretty adept at TB. I'm wondering, is there anybody out there who can really TB well that can't trill? That would support the genetic possibility. And no, not JR. He's a monster but TB isn't his forte. He can, but it's not what he really does.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 11:00 AM
"That's interesting. I never thought to actually move my tongue back and forth to make this effect happen. I just make a four-hole octave block and shake the harp like a normal warble. Is that wrong? It sounds the same to me!"
It's like Jason says-there is a difference between moving the harp back and forth and sliding your tougue between the holes. The tongue movement provides a more "round" tone for sure.
Just to clarify-it's not a tongue slap-your tongue remains on the harp-e.g. to perform the one-four tongue trill,you simply move your tongue one hole to the left-from blocking 2,3,4 to blocking 1,2,3-I am currently working on this under the tutelage of Dennis Gruneling-starting slowly,i am able to do the 1-4 trill-the speed will come,as I prefer to think of it as a muscle memory exercise.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 11:18 AM
Ahh. I went back to the video see where he says that (a little after 9:30). I also just realized that what he does at 9:40 is exactly what I do (he calls it an "Octave Warble"), and that he is showing that in opposition to the "Tongue Trill", which is the main technique he tried to demonstrate (but, apparently can't do very well, as neither can I!)... I suppose those of us who just cant do the tongue trill for genetic or other reasons will have to live with the less round sound of the octave warble! :) ---------- == I S A A C ==
Littoral, Still do not know what you mean by up and down. Do you mean the tongue pulls away from the harp and then returns to the harp?
Taken literally, up and down would mean moving the tongue to the bottom cover plate and sliding it over the holes to the top cover plate. I do not think this is what you mean. Is it?
Also, you have not yet defined warble. I am not teasing you. The same word has multiple meaning in the harp community and warble seems to mean a lot of different thing to a lot of people.
The effect that Jason is talking about that he can't do (I can't do it either) is a tongue switching sound played using your tongue. In my opinion it's not an up and down thing or an lift on/off, slapping type thing. Those are different techniques to me. The up and down thing is closer to the on/off thing in sound. This technique is noticeably very different to a straight tongue flutter when heard. Apparently it took Lee Sankey over five years to learn to play it.
Hey, I lived long enough to discover one thing that I can do that a master musician who excels at playing my instrument can not do. That and a cup of coffee will make me feel big and strong for an hour or so.
I also started out by not being able to do this. I think that the mistake I was making at first was that I tried to do it all at once and at the same speed I was hearing on my reference recordings. My brain couldn't handle that.
What I discovered by accident was that if I changed my embouchure so as to pull my mouth slightly back away from the harp, I could slowly and lightly move my tongue back and forth to effect a kind of half ass version of the technique, something that sounded vaguely like what you want to achieve. It did not sound like Dennis Gruenling at all, but after playing with it and experimenting with speed, tongue placement, and pressure I got much better at it in just a couple of days.
Even after that experience I still think that there is probably a genetic component to some of these tongue movements that we all want to be able to use. The most obvious example being the U shape that many people CAN make with their tongue and others can't.
For a long time now I have been trying to make this really cool blubbering sound that Ronnie Shellist demonstrates in a couple of his videos. He basicly says that all you have to do is pump your tongue back and forth on the bend.
Well ok,... can't do it. Just CAN NOT do it. I would sell my sister to the sex slavers to get that blubbering sound but I can't even get close. I heard a couple of real young guys doing it here on MBH, and doing it very well and I can't even get close to it.
"What I discovered by accident was that if I changed my embouchure so as to pull my mouth slightly back away from the harp, I could slowly and lightly move my tongue back and forth to effect a kind of half ass version of the technique"
I had a very similar experience. I only started trying to learn this technique recently. I was trying to get the "cajun accordion effect" (tongue blocking the middle hole of three) and found that by backing my mouth off the harp a bit I was more easily able to get (closer to) the sound.
Yeah, and then it's kind of like the experience that you might have had when you were first learning to bend - after you figure out how to get a rudimentary effect you can then work on trying to finesse it.
@Elk River
I completely agree with what you have to say about the information available and it is thanks to so many worthy teachers out there today like Jason, Gussow, Shellist and their like.
I had a marine band for years when I was a teen. I remember one night when I picked it up one last time after hearing a Chicago blues tune, and after not being able to replicate those soulfull bent notes that I had just heard, I laid it down thinking that the guy on the record definetly had to have some kind of special harmonica to get that effect.
In those days guitar teachers were everywhere as now, but nobody that i knew seemed to have a clue as to how to really play harp. Drums, bass, trumpet, you could at least get started in school band or some other way, but in my little Florida town harp players were mysterious transients from some other place far away and all the computers belonged to the guys down the road at NASA.
Littoral, When you say trill, you mean moving left to right quickly?
If so, what you are talking about is what I consider to be in the flutter family. What I believe Jason is talking about (and what I would love clues as to how to improve) is a tongue switch, where you wag you tongue left and right alternating between two non consecutive holes.
"What I believe Jason is talking about (and what I would love clues as to how to improve) is a tongue switch, where you wag you tongue left and right alternating between two non consecutive holes."
Michael you are indeed correct. Tongue switching is exactly what Jason is talking about.
Michael and Kingley, no, it is not side to side, it's on and off. I don't say this to be contrary. I can do this really well and I know what I do. I'm trying to help. Jason called it trill, not tongue switching, but the name isn't important beyond being sure we're talking about the same thing. On off, not side to side. Promise. -and, as I think about it, maybe less likely to be genetic.
Littoral - No offence, but I think you're getting confused. The on and off technique is a different technique to the side to side one. The "on and off" is a very easy technique to do. I can do that all day long. Anybody that can tongue block can easily learn to do it. The "side to side" is another thing altogether though. It's an extremely hard technique to learn, hence why a lot of people believe it's down to having a genetic predisposition. If you watch the Lee Sankey videos on these two techniques you'll see and hear the differences quite clearly.
Kingley, ok, yes, I just listened to Lee Skanky and he is side to side. I didn't load those before because I was using my phone and vids take a while. I can't do that either -I'll work on it now though. All that, with apologies too, I'm not sure that's what Jason was talking about. But he did call it trill and the frequency change between notes makes trill a good name for it and side to side is what Dave thought he was talking about-he'd know better than me. The example I gave for Scratch My Back, got a name for that? I'll look for a video.
Littoral - If we are talking about Slim Harpo's version of "Scratch My Back"? Then I think it's mostly just a heavy and slow throat vibrato/tremelo he's using. He uses it all virtually all the notes he plays in that song. It gives it a swampy almost leslie speaker type sound.
I lay the bottom of the tongue on the numbers of the top cover, rake side-to-side. For the 1-4 interval the harp is deeper, for the 2-4 pull the harp out slightly and the blocking portion of the tongue is narrower without any other muscle changes. I play the majority of the time with the bottom of the tongue like this unless intentionally going for a reedier tone. ---------- Spiers Harmonicas
I have found it helpful in tongue awareness to learn to TB just one hole leaving one hole open on either side of the tongue before attempting to flutter.
TB with tongue over 2 holes in the middle (octave splits) came pretty easily and it took a bit of time to learn to just cover one hole in the middle.
Relaxing the tongue, mouth and tipping the harmonica up about 45 degrees was helpful to me. ---------- The Iceman
