1- I'm trying to get in on this song,but I'm struggling. I'm trying to play it on a G chromatic. It's in A Maj. Old(3rd pos) habits die hard and I keep throwing minor notes in there. A Maj is close to G Maj. I need C# & G#,but the other notes are the same. Is it safe to just do that and stay in A Maj. About the only thing I can do now is play that little main riff.
Question 2; Is it reasonable for the guitar player to choose a song like this with a harp player? He already has a few songs where he stretches out on guitar and I sit out.When I choose songs for the band,I try to let everybody have some fun.
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2012 9:44 AM
I just love this Count Basie tune. It can be a blast using a Country tuned harp for this stuff. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Of course its reasonable. There is no song that cannot be done on harmonicas. There's no reason we harmonica players can't strut in, balls first, and play anything anybody else can play on any instrument. I think this piece below would be a hell of a lot more complicated to play on a harmonica... and it has been very well.
There's three people that come to mind you need to pose this question to: David Naiditch. He's a West Coast bluegrasser, but these are the kind of lines he plays and he is a master. He plays everything on a C Saxony. DavidNaiditch(at)Charter.net
Phil Caltabellotta pcharps1(at)aol.com, he's the guy in Fantasie Impromptu posted above. Phil is a by-ear player. He can tell you how to smell the changes, etc. He's one of the most disciplined woodshedders I know.
Rob Paparozzi chromboy at earthlink.net, another master who knows what he is doing.
Wally Peterman is another. He's a 48 chord player primarily, but he would be my go-to guy for what a song needs and what should be played to compliment the chords. He posts in the Elk River Harmonicas forum as 48 chord. George Miklas, former Harmonicat and master of all harmonicas, would be another. He also posts there. In the Fantasie Impromptu above, Wally is playing chord and George is playing bass.
I could go on with this list forever.
Here's what I would do. I wouldn't play a lead in it at all. The bands I tend to be in - and i am very selective about this - are full of extremely talented musicians who play a variety of instruments well. The last band I was in was a trio and we had 24 different possible instrument configurations between the three of us... some songs in the set would feature me on the harmonica, others would feature the mandolin, etc., and there would be some that we'd trade links in.
So you could let the guitar go to town on this piece without ever working out the lead yourself. Play rhythm. If you just have a chromatic to work with, play soft arpeggios of the chords. If you have access to Richter-note-placement instruments - and everybody should - and will post the chord progression, I'll tell you how to get them.
Ideally, what I'd do is play chords in a way that mimics and compliments the snare. That would add a lot to what I hear above. You can play chords and use your harmoncia as a percussion instrument- and referencing back to Isaac's "influences" thread - that's something I picked up from my grandfather and Bill Monroe.
If you are set on playing the lead, it doesn't have to be that complicated. There's an old saying here in WV, hit the beginning and end of the chord changes. The middle will take care of itself. Start out by hitting the root as the chord changes and see what happens. If you play half notes, you only have to play half as fast, and I think something slower, but meaningful tonewise would be a nice break in that song.
timeistight- No way would I just "wing" it on this. If I can't do it well,I won't do it at all. I liked some of that video,but I wouldn't want to use some of the notes he chooses.
barbequebob- Country tuned in cross harp?
Everybody- Am I way off base choosing a G chrom? Different position on a diatonic,maybe? I consider doing this a challenge to myself,but I might ultimately sit this one out.
Dave- We must have posted at the same time. I don't really want to play lead. I just want to fit in. I'm letting the guitar player do the heavy lifting. When you say play the rhythm, do you mean sort of like horn fills? I know George,he roomed with me at SPAH last year. I just might have to pick his brain on this.
You could do horn fills. What I mean is an actual chord rhythm to compliment and mimic what the snare is doing on Richter note-placement harmonicas. If you'll post the progression, I'll tell you how to get the chords, even if there are weird ones in there. ---------- David Elk River Harmonicas
Challenging tune. There's no law that says you have to play on every measure of every tune. If you can only play the main riff of the head, then consider playing that and laying out on the rest. Just a thought....
I was always under the impression that this was a Woody Herman tune.
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2012 1:01 PM
@Sarge: I found that clip on YouTube: http://youtu.be/rfvPokc-WfA. Here are the notes from the guy who uploaded the vid:
The Freight Train, March 10, 2011 at The Griswold Inn. Jumpin' At The Woodside featuring Harry Arnold (trombone), Bob Card (alto & tenor sax), Peter Davis (piano), Dick Mundell (bass), Tom Palinko (drums). Special guests Charlie Weyant on tenor and Steve Cryan on harmonica.
@Tuckster -- Country tuned harp was originally designed so that what you would normally do with 1st positition, you can get that in cross harp, and it's a fun tuning to use not just for country, but also for ballads, jazz, and doowop tunes as well, plus in cross harp, you can actually play a real V chord there when needed. To get that major 7th in cross harp, you'd either would hit 9 blow with a 1/2 step bend, or 2 draw 1st bend, or overblow 6 blow, but with the CT, it's already there plus you have the double stops and chords that you'd never be able to use if you did an OB.
One thing Toots Thielemans said in an interview in Richard Hunter's book, Jazz Harp, he usually chose keys where the slide is pressed in or out most of the time, and listen tow where the breathing patterns are gonna be, so you may want to experiment using chromatics in different keys as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Remember that most of these old big band jazz standards were an intro and 1 chorus and then ad lib solos around the band followed by a back chorus. Even stuff like Glenn Miller, the solos were ad lib but once they were recorded everyone expects covers to use exactly the same solo as on the record so they have been transcribed for the sheet music. Often it is almost impossible to actually transcribe what was being played.
Lumpy, I just got a catolog from Sweetwater Music and I remember seeing a software package that when you play any recording thru your computer, it can fully transcribe into sheet music every single instrument being played, solos included. I can't remember the name of it for the life of me, but as soon as I do, I'm gonna post it. When I saw this, it just totally blew me away.
When you mentioned that back in the big band jazz days you had just one solo, it wasn't just big band jazz guys who had to do it that way, but damned near every type of band in every genre had to do it that way until rock bands in the late 60's began doing tons of extended solos. Heck, when I first gigged with Jimmy Rogers, that was basically what you did too. When bands had to do 4 or 5 sets of at least 40-45 minutes and had a break of not linger than 15-20 minutes, plus you were expected to do a minimum of 10-15 tunes per set within that time frame, it was pretty much standard that you only did one chorus, rather than the long solos you often hear now. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Just as an update- We didn't do "Woodside" at rehearsal last night,so I didn't even have a chance to see what works. I've already opted out of playing on "Pipeline"(minor tuned harp?) and they tried adding a very guitar dominated tune that I adamantly refused to consider. It's not "all about me",but jeez, cut me a little slack with song selection,bandmates. I try to be very diplomatic in my song selections.
Well, you may or may not have reason to complain. Some tunes are just not effectively playable on diatonic harp. All good musicians including the harp player understand that the harp will lay out on material like that.
Good musicians don't like to dumb down set lists by eliminating material playable on diatonic, but which a particular harp player can't handle. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but you have to ask yourself if the problem is with the material itself or your limitations as a player (and we all have those).
You mention minor key harps. I've never encountered a minor key tune playable on diatonic that can't be played effectively on a Richter tuned harp using 5th, 4th, 3rd or (occasionally) 2d position depending on the nature of the minor key melody and scale. When a player talks about needing a minor key harp, I wonder if that player actually has full control over what is doable on a Richter tuned harp. I'm not suggesting that you don't and I'm not trying to insult you. But if you are going to work with good musicians you have to be able to go with the flow. Personally, this is why i learned to play in multiple positions. And sometimes you need to use 2 harps on the same tune.
So, if the material being selected is consistently not playable on diatonic, you have a legitimate reason to bitch. But if the material is just difficult, the harp player in the band needs to step up his game or the other band members have a legitimate reason to bitch.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 9:44 AM
Further thought: if you are working with good musicians who want to play material that's doable, but difficult, ask them to tell you or write out the notes of the head or primary melody. Then you can transpose to harp and select the proper position and decide if you need to use more than one harp. I make requests like this fairly regularly and the musicians i work with don't think I'm being unreasonable.
If they won't give you the notes to help you out, then yeah, you've got reason to complain. If they do give you the notes, though, you should be able to determine if they are playable on diatonic and figure out how to do it.
The problem with many harp players is that they don't necessarily know which notes are where on which harp. I'm not suggesting that you don't, but if a musician goes to the trouble of writing out a melody for you in note names and then you can't figure out where those particular notes are on your instrument, you're going to have a really pissed off musician to deal with.
I hear you,hvyj. It wasn't always so,but in the last couple of years, I've been striving to become a musician that plays harp. I'm always willing to tackle something out of my comfort zone,but I have my limits. I play a lot of songs that a lot of blues harp players would balk at. I'm comfortable in 1st,2nd and 3rd,but I really don't have a handle on 4th and 5th. I tried "Pipeline" in 5th,but I'm just not fluent enough in that position. Honestly,I don't really think my bandmates have a clue what a harp friendly tune really is. I don't mind sitting out some songs and let the guitar player wail,but I don't want to sit on the sidelines for half a set. The guitar player doesn't like to stray from his comfort zone too much. I begged and pleaded for them to listen,just listen, to "Georgia Slop". Finally they did and everyone but the guitarist loved it,so he was outvoted. Now,he loves the song. Go figure.
P.S. We all happen to be good friends. That can sometimes complicate things.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 12:43 PM
"It's not "all about me",but jeez, cut me a little slack with song selection, bandmates. I try to be very diplomatic in my song selections."
I'm not exactly sure what being diplomatic or cutting slack in song selection means. Like you wouldn't do "Juke" because there's no guitar solo or something?
I can see wanting to sit out a fast jazz tune like "Jumpin' At The Woodside" if you aren't comfortable about making the changes, but I can't see why you wouldn't play on a simple tune like "Pipeline" and "adamantly refusing to consider" a tune because it's guitar-dominated seems a wee bit pouty, frankly.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 12:32 PM
timeistight- No,I'm no prima donna. Among other reasons,I wouldn't do Juke because it would be all about me. Not that we don't have a few tunes where I'm spotlighted,but so does the guitar player. I like to strike a balance there. I felt I had to draw the line somewhere on song selection,so that's when I "adamantly refused". With an almost limitless number of choices,I thought we could choose better. 3 out of the last 6 songs we've picked have been guitar player songs.I mean songs where there was very little "wiggle room" for harp.
And if you've got a good approach for "Pipeline",please share. I'll take all the help I can get.:)
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 12:47 PM
If you only play 1st, 2d and 3rd positions, you are operating under extreme limitations and there will inevitably be a TON of material easily doable on diatonic that you won't be able to play. The band may not want to impose those sort of limitations on its repertoire.
It's about available scales/modes and where the built in half steps are.
Good musicians want to play up to their capabilities. You've got to be able to keep up if you are going to be functional.
You may actually know less than your bandmates about what "harp friendly" material is. Don't want to sound like I'm being mean, but just because YOU can't play a particular tune on harp doesn't mean it's not harp friendly.
For example, Coltrane's "Equinox" is harp friendly as is Hendrix"s "Little Wing" because you can get the melodies note-for-note and sound evocative doing it on harp. But most harp players would not think so because they don't know how to do it. But it ain't hard if you understand where the relevant notes are which is aided by knowing 4th ("Equinox") and 5th ("LW") position scale patterns. But if you are stuck in 1st, 2d and 3rd positions, these tunes may not seem harp friendly BECAUSE IN THOSE POSITIONS YOU DON"T HAVE THE NOTES YOU NEED to play those tunes.
You've got to think in terms of NOTES, not just familiar breath patterns.
FWIW.
Btw, i wouldn't do "Juke" either. Why? Because i have no relevant interpretation to add or offer. That tune has been already done ad nauseaum and i have nothing i can do to it to make it my own or improve on the various existing interpretations. I will, however, play "Miss you" anytime I get the opportunity. Why? Because i can do a lot with that Sugar Blue hook besides nailing it.
P.S. try 4th position for "Pipeline". You may want to lay out on the turn around, but the electric piano solo on the Chantay's original is doable on harp in 4th. i think it's Em so use a G harp.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 2:38 PM
According the internet, the chords to Pipeline are Em, Am, B and C with a bridge that goes Am, G, F, G, Am, G, F and then back to Em. I'd probably try it on a C harp (i.e., fifth position) because of the C and F chords, but I'm sure it could be made to work in fourth or third, too. I wouldn't try cross harp because of the minor IV chords.
It would be very tough to do in 3rd and sound right. Too many bends in 5th on the low end to get that riff smoothly, but if you did play 5th, use a C harp. IMHO there's no advantage to using 5th for this tune.
DON'T TRY TO PLAY ANY CHORDS. Why? You don't have the chords you need to pull it off. It will sound fudged. Lay out on the bridge and let the other instruments handle that part of the tune.
The trick to playing 4th is using NOTE MOVEMENT instead of bends. The only necessary bend in 4th for natural minor is 3D** for tonic on the low end which is the same note as 6D and 10D. Otherwise, i think you've got all the notes you need in 4th w/o bends. Except for 3D** DO NOT BEND or you will take yourself out of key!
Can't hit D3** dead on pitch? then go home and woodshed a do-re-mi scale starting on B1 until you can nail it. Why a do-re-mi scale? because you can tell when you've got it right purely by ear.
Not sure of the notes to the head? Ask your guitar player. the same riff repeats on the I and then up on the IV. So you need to learn TWO lines. The electric piano solo would sound cool played on harp. DON"T OVERPLAY. but you MUST nail the head accurately note-for-note on the I and on the IV. The solo is optional but is easily played note-for-note. That solo is part of the tune, so, personally, if i played it, I wouldn't embellish it.
FWIW, I think it's often a mistake for a harp player to play all the way through a tune. Pick your spots. The harp has more artistic/musical/emotional impact that way. BUT, recognizable heads/melodies MUST be played accurately. Don't slop through an approximation. LEARN THE NOTES!
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 3:38 PM
timeistight & hvyj- thanks for the advice! I tried Pipeline in 2nd,3rd, and a feeble 5th. None of those were right. Never tried 4th,I'll give that a shot. I really don't care if I play on it or not,but if I can find something workable,I'll dive in.
hvyj- OK Little Wing is a good tune for 5th. I've been listening to what you have to say about the benefits of 4th & 5th. Remember that thread where the guy was playing in 2nd and he thought he was playing in 3rd? I realised that without some kind of backing track,there's no way you can stay in key. That's my problem in 4th & 5th. Could you give me some well known tunes that I could practice those positions to? I'll definitely use LW for 5th. Don't think I'll try Equinox,it's not something I'll ever encounter. Something not in a jazz vein?
Does that mean anything I can play in 3rd,I can also play in 5th? I know that can't be or Pipeline(Em) would work in 3rd. I know there are different minors,but I can't remember the differences.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 3:53 PM
If you can orient yourself, it's relatively easy to pick out minor melodies in 4th because YOU DON"T HAVE TO BEND to create notes. They're all there like on a piano. just don't try to play blues riffs and focus on picking out notes.
Tune to learn in 4th? "Afro-Blue".
Tune to learn in 5th? "Ain't No sunshine When She's Gone."
Personally, i have no problem staying in key w/o a backing track. But the hard part is knowing how to resolve through the V to the I. If this is giving you a problem in live performance, LAY OUT and let the other instruments do it and then come back in on the I. This is counter-intuitive because most harp players want to go crazy on the V--but how cool it can be to just lay out. Takes discipline, but can be very effective. i do it frequently even when i do know how to play through the V to the I.
Another good 5th position tune is "Poor Wayfaring Stranger" but the bridge ("I'm going to see my father..") is MAJOR, so be sure to lay out on that passage. There's a vid of Charlie McCoy doing this tune on YT.
When you get comfortable in 4th, it CAN be used to play harmonic minor w/appropriate bends, but for now, just learn natural minor.
Btw, it really helps you stay in key if you learn the relevant scales.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 4:18 PM
@timeistight: Yeah, i agree that 5th is GENERALLY better for minor blues than 4th, but for reasons other than the availability of the flat five. The flat five is really an optional note. It's available in 4th ONLY at 8B* BUT it's available in 5th ONLY at 3D*. So it is a note that has limited availability in BOTH 4th and 5th positions.
@Tuckster: "Does that mean anything I can play in 3rd,I can also play in 5th?" Yes and no. A LOT of stuff playable in 3rd is playable in 5th but most stuff playable in 5th is NOT playable in 3rd. It has to do with the flat sixth. Search the archives for discussions about Dorian minor as compared to natural minor. I'm too tired to get into all that right now, and it's been discussed before at length here on MBH.
Short answer: In 3rd the major sixth at 7D is a PITA for minor blues. Great for Dorian minor. You have flat sixth in 4 places in 5th which is perfect for natural minor and just about all minor blues are natural minor. You CAN get major sixth in 5th at 4D* so you CAN play Dorian in 5th if you want and 5th is great for tunes that modulate between Dorian and natural minors. So 5th is really flexible for playing minor material. 3rd is very limiting for minor key playing unless you are playing Dorian.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 4:14 PM
I guess that depends on what you can play in third, eh? ;-)
Seriously, it depends what the song requires. If you need the major 7th, then fifth position isn't going to work unless you're a good overblower. Also, in fifth the tonics are blow notes so you can't give them as much expression. On the other hand, a lot of minor songs use the flat six and it's right there at the 1, 4, 7 and 10 blows in fifth but in third you need the 3 draw half-step bend or 6 overblow to get it.
One thing that third position is better for is playing major blues. You're missing the major third in the middle octave but that never seems to be that big a problem, since we're so used to hearing minor thirds over tonic major chords in blues.
"in fifth the tonics are blow notes so you can't give them as much expression."
Yeah, but that's a musical ADVANTAGE if you are playing MINOR. If you bend the tonic for expression you are bending to a MAJOR 7th which is NOT musical if you are playing natural minor which uses FLAT 7ths. Harp players tend to bend because they can. You can get away with that in second position, but doing that playing minor TAKES YOU OUT OF KEY by generating BAD NOTES that are UNMUSICAL. You have to think NOTES.
Bending the tonic for expression playing natural minor or Dorian minor is generally a BAD IDEA. Now, you CAN do it playing harmonic minor and it will sound cool--that's why 4th is good for playing harmonic minor: All the tonics are draw notes.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 4:38 PM
@hvy: I try not to play one scale throughout a song. I prefer working off each chord instead.
Many (most?) minor songs go to the dominant 7 chord rather than the minor 7 chord on the V. Playing the major 7th of the scale sounds good there because it's the third of the V chord.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 4:56 PM
Yeah. A lot of minors have a major V chord. Yeah, you're right. But I haven't figured out a good strategy for handling that in a way I'm comfortable with executing.
Btw, i don't OB.
Most (but certainly not all) minor blues have a minor V chord.
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2012 4:45 PM
4th position, natural minor scale, lower register:
3D** 3D 4B 4D 5B 5D 6B 6D
Upper register:
6D 7D 7B 8D 8B 9D 9B 10D
Blues scale:
6D 7B 6D 8B* 8B 9B 10D
Minor pentatonic scale, lower register:
3D**4B 4D 5B 6B 6D
Upper register:
6D 7B 8D 8B 9B 10D
NO CHORDS available. Can play HARMONIC minor by bending 3D*** and 6D* to get major 7th and avoiding 2D 3B 6B 9B which are flat 7th.
B1=minor third, D2=fourth, B2=fifth, B10=minor third, 2D**=minor sixth, so all three registers are playable.
Btw, the breath pattern for minor pentatonic in fourth is the same as major pentatonic in first, just starting on a different note. This is an easy position to get around in, because just about all the necessary notes are available, but DO NOT BEND RANDOMLY or you will go out of key.
Fourth position puts you in the relative minor key of the first position key and corresponds to Aeolean mode.
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2012 4:17 AM
