smwoerner
69 posts
Jun 12, 2012
8:17 PM
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First off let me state that I’m new to playing an instrument of any kind. I just started playing the harmonica 1 year ago. I now have a full set of diatonic harps, spares and several I’ve tweaked for the mid range overblows.
I like the idea of being able to travel with 1 harmonica and sit in at any jam. Just like showing up with a guitar, trumpet or sax. I’ve been spending more time with my chromatic mainly to help me really learn all of the different scales.
I’m aware that you can play any scale on any harmonica with the proper technique. I also know that specific key harps allow you to play specific cords thus the reason for different keys.
My goal is not to be only a harp player but, a musician that plays harp. I know there are many well versed musicians on this forum and many multi instrumentalists which is also a goal of mine.
Now rather than thinking of position on the chromatic I’m approaching it more like a standard single note type of wind instrument and just thinking in terms of the key. With a 16 hole diatonic you basically have three full octaves for any key (I do know that in certain keys I also have cords and octaves available).
Does anyone here occasionally go out with only a C chromatic to jam knowing that they can play any chord progression in any key? Showing up much like a sax or trumpet player and not thinking about position but rather just the key of the song.
This requires knowing all of the notes in every key and where they are located on the chromatic.
I’m not giving up my diatonic harps but I just really like the idea of throwing a chromatic in a bag and heading out.
Does this seem like a reasonable approach or am I making things too complicated?
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billy_shines
558 posts
Jun 12, 2012
8:41 PM
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its boring and it wont sound right in a blues sitch
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timeistight
612 posts
Jun 12, 2012
8:59 PM
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Most jazz players do that: play everything on a C chromatic harp. There are even a couple of people who play everything they play on one key diatonic harp.
I don't know of any blues players who do that exclusively, though.
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Gnarly
265 posts
Jun 12, 2012
9:37 PM
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I used to bring keyed chromatics to my gig (in addition to my case with too many diatonic harmonicas), but lately have been just working with one. It is tuned to Orchestra Bebop; | G a | Bb b | C d | E f |
I think in positions and notes; G is cross, right? Bb is similar; F is first flat (but can be played without the button, since there is a Bb given).
D is third, and you can make it major with the button (some blues players don't do this).
I find that flat keys are easier than sharp keys, and I like playing blues on a chrom! G is especially good, and on this harp, the root is on the bottom (it's a G3, so G below middle C) and the blue third can be trilled with the button.
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nacoran
5837 posts
Jun 12, 2012
9:51 PM
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It depends on what style music you want to play. Chromatics don't bend as easily so they are harder to get that bluesy sound with. For jazz or classical it's a good idea.
I'm not sure if it's ready for prime time mass production but Turbo Harps has a new diatonic that uses a magnet to change the flexibility of the reeds, changing the pitch when you slide the button in (moving the magnets). That might be an option (they are about $150.) It's supposed to be easily bendable like a regular diatonic, but with a slide effect too.
Like you said at the start, it is possible to play a diatonic chromatically, but it involves some more advanced techniques (my overblows are terrible and I can only get them on a few harps, but some players use them really well.)
Either way, with diatonics and positions or the chromatic with the slide, it's about practicing your scales over and over and over and over until you lock the muscle memory in with your sense of tone. I haven't found that having to carry more than one harp is really much of a hassle for shows. I've never really taken the time to get the hang of diatonics though, so maybe I'm biased.
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Nate
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FMWoodeye
370 posts
Jun 12, 2012
9:51 PM
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I gave my chromatics away. To me, the chrom is cerebral sounding while the diatonic is visceral. I'm a visceral kind of guy.
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jbone
956 posts
Jun 12, 2012
10:02 PM
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i keep a low C, middle C, and G chromatic in my case. if guys like william clarke, james cotton, carey bell, and john weston can or could make a chro into a blues instrument, so can i. which i have done and continue to do.
along with the chro's i have several heavily used keys of diatonic. howard levy plays everything on a C diatonic and more power to him. every different key and different style of diatonic has its own character, which getting to know how a harp plays is part of the attraction to me.
guess i'm "just" a harp player. oh well.
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smwoerner
71 posts
Jun 12, 2012
10:33 PM
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Thanks for all of the input. I know the chrome has a different sound but, so does an acoustic, a steal and a Strat or Fender. I like it when the guitar players mix it up a bit. If Howard Levy can play any key jazz on a diatonic and have it sound jazzy I’m sure any key blues can be played on a chrome and sound bluesy. After all, there is a lot of blues played on chromes. I just think it might be a nice tool to have and might make the open mic nights more assessable for us mere mortals.
I guess for me just starting out it’s a more focused way of making myself think notes and relationships and not holes. Plus, it just seems easy when dealing with sheet music on the fly…which I’m just starting to get comfortable with.
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Michael Rubin
562 posts
Jun 13, 2012
4:37 AM
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I've definitely done blues gigs on one C chromatic. I think you can make it sound bluesy in any key if you understand what you are doing to make it sound bluesy in the standard keys.
I also have gone to jam sessions of multiple styles with either just a diatonic or a chromatic.
SMwoerner, just what you talk about in your post suggests to me you will get to be a great player. Keep it up!
By the way, Levy uses much more than a C diatonic. He often has been quoted saying different positions are right for different jobs. He is just ABLE to play it on one C.
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hvyj
2460 posts
Jun 13, 2012
7:56 AM
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@smwoerner; For the past little while, I've been trying to learn chrom, and so far as i am concerned thinking in terms of "positions" is not very useful. Harmonica players tend to be hardware oriented since that allows them to change instruments to change keys so they can use familiar breath patterns instead of learning enough music to be able to play the same instrument in different keys. So, yeah, on chrom I think in terms of keys and notes rather than positions. And it sure is nice to have an instrument on which the location of all the notes remains the same (as compared to using a set of 12 diatonics where the location of, say, "C" is different on every axe).
A couple of musicians have suggested to me that it would help me get around better on the instrument if i focused more on learning arpeggios rather than scales. But haven't actually started to do much of that yet.
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2012 8:01 AM
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FMWoodeye
373 posts
Jun 13, 2012
3:38 PM
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@smwoerner...in any event, my hat is off to you for approaching your task as actually learning the instrument as opposed to what I did with the chromatic, which I term "cheap trick harmonica." Playing other instruments, I became a good "chart player" but had difficulty improvising. I'm convinced it's because of the way I think, largely in images. I employ what I (and maybe others) call tactile imaging when I write on a shorthand machine (certified at 225 WPM). I can type quite well, but I can't tell you where any of the letters are on a keyboard. I have to recreate the feeling of typing a word and then transcribe that into, say, ring finger, one row up for the letter O. So when I learned to play harp, I didn't worry about what note I was playing, just the patterns. I know what notes I'm playing now, but I have to sort of "figure it out," For some reason, reading tabs seems difficult for me. I feel like Jim Morrison's killer on the road....that is, my brain is squirmin' like a toad.
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nacoran
5842 posts
Jun 13, 2012
4:31 PM
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FM, that's as good a description of playing by ear as I've heard. That's one of the reasons I hate trying to tab out songs for people. As soon as I pull the harp away from my mouth I have to put my finger on the hole or I lose my place! I'm a little better working the other way around, but I still prefer doing it by ear.
At one point I was trying to figure out if there was a way to put lights on the harp that lit up depending on what note you play.
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Nate
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FMWoodeye
374 posts
Jun 13, 2012
4:44 PM
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@nacoran....my impression is that every time I "sound it out" or play by ear, it weaves a thread into a matrix of reference in by tiny brain. So when I listen to Ronnie Shellist's 15-minute audio lesson on playing the national anthem, all I need to know is that it starts on the three blow and that there are some bends involved. Then it's just a matter of nailing it down and adding the embellishments.
Strangely enough, I find now that it is easy for me to pick up a trombone and play various harmonica licks, and I can change keys on the bone. Perhaps I had a focal brain injury or developmental problem and other parts of my brain kicked in.
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billy_shines
563 posts
Jun 13, 2012
6:16 PM
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i can play negro spirituals a few verses then get bored because nobody is singing. i can do im in the mood for love strangers in the night and stuff. but to play blues i need backing i just cant do it snapping my fingers and foot drums isnt music its noise. and i cant jam along to eric crapton. its impossible to find turned out people to play with. i play be feel best practice by ear. any playing with yourself is for jackoffs. the only practice i can get is open mic hang for hours to play one damned shuffle i hate shuffles.
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2012 6:20 PM
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smwoerner
73 posts
Jun 13, 2012
6:39 PM
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Folks, part of why I’m doing this is I want to be able to learn to play buy ear also. Being new at this I still have a lot of ear training to do. However, I want to be able to quickly take what I hear by ear and put in on an instrument. A lot of that means knowing where those notes. In other words I’m trying to get away from thinking oh that was a 3 draw to thinking ok that sounds like a flat third and they’re playing in G major I need B which is a 4 draw on my chrome, a 2 or 5 blow on my G harp or the first of the double white keys on the piano….
Last night I was working on a riff on a diatonic and I wanted to try it on the chrome and see how it sounded. I could have just kept blowing and drawing on the chrome until it sounded right. Instead I knew the holes I was playing on the diatonic so I figured out the notes for that harp and found them on the chrome. Then for fun I tried the same riff in a different key. Where I could have just switched from an A to a C and played the same holes I had to figure out the notes relationships and a new pattern on the chrome.
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nacoran
5847 posts
Jun 13, 2012
11:23 PM
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smwoerner, I see what you are saying, and it's really useful for playing with other musicians, but if you develop your muscle memory on the chrom you may find yourself at the same point that FM is describing, not thinking about the name of the notes, but how they sound. I'm certainly not there on the chrom though! I took a couple weeks of piano lessons once (I had to quit because of carpal tunnel issue from an injury from before the lessons). The only exercises I ever really got to were playing scales. We'd play the scale in one key, keeping a steady rhythm, then play the scale in the next key up, and so on and so forth. The idea was just to create muscle memory for each key. If you have that and someone calls a key you are in the same situation as a diatonic player with the right harp. The names of the notes are important to the extent that you need to know the hole to start on, but hopefully after that the muscle memory kicks in. I think knowing the place in the scale relative to Do is more important than the letter name, except for that moment at the start when they call the key, and then later the letters become important for theory.
You'll hear a lot of harpers using the degrees of the scale, a fifth or a 7th. You may also hear Tonic, Subtonic, etc. Some of the naming systems seem to make sense to have different systems, but calling the same thing by so many names sometimes makes my head hurt. I keep trying to come up with a system that neatly unifies everything, but then I reminds me of a programming joke I heard: A developer looks at the fragmented market of 15 'universal' standards and decides that what the market needs is one truly universal standard, so he sets out to build one. Upon completion there are 16 universal standards. :)
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Nate
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