|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Am I being unreasonable? Biz question
Am I being unreasonable? Biz question
Page:
1
Michael Rubin
560 posts
Jun 11, 2012
2:59 PM
|
Traded 4 emails from someone I didn't know concerning a recording of one song. I ask for $100. I do the song. There are 4 producers in the room. At the session's end, they say have to pay me next week. I about lost it and almost told them that is not how it works, you are expected to pay at time of recording. I almost said if the 4 of you cannot reach in your pockets and make $100 happen, I feel sorry for you!
But I didn't, I held my tongue. In the long run, $100 is not much money, I could trust them for a week and if they never paid me, my life would continue pretty much the same.
Now they emailed me saying the song needs a touch up, no big deal, should only take 5 minutes. Yeah, but it is not only 5 minutes, it is a half an hour of driving that they don't seem to recognize. I asked for $50. He needs to talk to the money guy. I await the decision.
Am I unreasonable? Every time a man leaves his house to work he should be paid, right?
I kind of feel over a barrel. If they say no to extra money, I have to do the work to get the money.
|
clyde
267 posts
Jun 11, 2012
3:05 PM
|
i have lived that story once or twice. i would clean up the mess the best i could and take care of payment issues up front next time.
|
didjcripey
280 posts
Jun 11, 2012
3:18 PM
|
depends on your wants, needs, ambitions and ability.
I've just done a couple of recording sessions for free. Great learning experience on many levels. A real buzz to hear how the harp sounds when properly recorded and mixed. Creates new networking possibilities.
!/2 hour drive? Petrol money is not unreasonable.
My next session is with a guy who is apologising for only being able to pay 50 bucks petrol money and buy the B harp I'll need to play.
Its one thing doing it for free, but to be out of pocket? Nah thanks.
Good luck!
----------
Lucky Lester
|
ElkRiverHarmonicas
1146 posts
Jun 11, 2012
3:20 PM
|
Maybe. I know the school system doesn't factor in any of the time it takes me to drive to the various schools they put me in. As a newspaper reporter, they've paid me for time driving - and mileage - only after I arrived there. There's a studio across the river that wanted to use me for some stuff and they talked to me for a while back, they said they wouldn't call me out unless they had $100 worth of work. That was their approach to this very situation, "we won't even call you unless there's $100 worth of work."
But calling you back in, I'd say they ought to pay for a half-hour block, even if you only lived 5 minutes away but you and I know good and well when somebody says something will only take 5 minutes, it never only takes 5 mins.
----------
David
Elk River Harmonicas
Elk River Harmonicas on Facebook
"It's difficult to think anything but pleasant thoughts while eating a homegrown tomato." - Lewis Grizzard
"Also, drinking homemade beer." - David Payne
|
dougharps
207 posts
Jun 11, 2012
3:29 PM
|
In the limited studio work I have done at a local Central Illinois studio it was always a given that you were paid at the time of recording. At the end of one session the artist who was recording (a young guy that I didn't know and wasn't local) did not have the money, and couldn't find an ATM to get cash. The studio owner/producer paid me, noting that the studio had possession of all the recordings, and the owner was sure that he would be repaid. This was the only time I had a problem with prompt payment at a studio.
I did run into delays in payment for a live gig when the large bureaucratic organization that booked us to play a retirement party delayed cutting the check due to someone's vacation, but we were eventually paid after a week or so.
In the studio work I have done, they review the recording and have me do any corrections at the time of the recording. Being called back in is like another gig, in my opinion, and even if it is for 5 minutes, I think you are right to set a minimum taking travel into account. I would want payment for the first session before doing the second "fix".
But then there are the politics of it, in that if these gigs are hard to come by, and you want to be called again for more work, you want to come off as flexible, but not a sucker. It is a tough situation.
----------
Doug S.
|
mandowhacker
151 posts
Jun 11, 2012
4:04 PM
|
"Am I unreasonable? Every time a man leaves his house to work he should be paid, right?"
#1 No
#2 Yes
There are people to deal with that the best business approach is not to have any dealings with them.
Had you set it up for the "experience" in the first place it would be different. You set it up as a professional and have a right to be paid as such.
Greg
----------
Just when I got a paddle, they added more water to the creek.
|
timeistight
611 posts
Jun 11, 2012
4:38 PM
|
I don't think you're being at all unreasonable. These guys sound like they're trying to make a record on the cheap, which might have been fine if they'd been upfront about it, but they weren't.
I certainly wouldn't do any more for them without payment up front.
|
The Iceman
344 posts
Jun 11, 2012
5:18 PM
|
As a pro, payment amount and COD (cash on delivery) are agreed in advance.
When you arrive, go over the agreement briefly and professionally so all are on the same page.
Unknowns are asked for references (so you can check up on them in advance).
If it is their studio and they give you the "pay ya next week" stuff, grab a mic on your way out and tell'em it's a security deposit.
----------
The Iceman
|
billy_shines
548 posts
Jun 11, 2012
5:54 PM
|
dollah stoe, box cutter, one dollah 3" of razor sharp steel knowmsayin?
|
paulbunyn
19 posts
Jun 11, 2012
6:00 PM
|
I cannot speak from a musicians point of view but from a professional carpenter's POV, I would demand the $100 on arrival and the $50 upon completion within 30 min. Any longer than what was agreed upon from the beginning would be subject to additional charges.
|
Buzadero
976 posts
Jun 11, 2012
6:38 PM
|
Like anyone else (musician or not) you have a value placed on what service or product you provide. The trick that arises in any negotiation is how to find that point on the value line just under the tipping point.
Personally, in my profession I have a pretty good idea what I bring to the table is worth on the dynamic free-market.
Depending on factors such as how you feel it would effect your reputation, bottom line, or mental health, you set your price, terms and begin the process.
Perhaps, you are as good as they are going to get, price not withstanding. Perhaps, they could get any muppet off the street to stick a harp in his or her pie-hole and satisfy their needs. It is likely going to fall somewhere between these extremes.
You say the hundred is not going to have a great impact on your life either way. So, my advice would be to set your terms (what you've posed is not unreasonable by any means in my opinion) and see what happens. "That's my rate, you don't like it get someone else, beeyotch"
----------
~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2012 6:40 PM
|
nacoran
5834 posts
Jun 11, 2012
7:04 PM
|
You should get paid up front before you get back in your car. Tell them you aren't doubting their sincerity, but that it's a business where a lot of people get screwed and it's made you a little wary. Then you have to decide if you think from a musical standpoint if you might want to work with them again in the future. If you do, and they balk at another $50 maybe charge them a discounted rate, 5 minutes plus gas money. Make sure payment for any future work is arranged up front. If you don't think you'd want to work with them again I'd ask them to send you a copy of the problem. Decide from there if it's something you're okay with being released with your name in the liner notes or if it's something you've got to fix. Tell them that you'll work fast but if their slowdowns take you past 30 minutes you'll charge them for the hour.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
kudzurunner
3300 posts
Jun 11, 2012
7:13 PM
|
Michael, you're being entirely TOO reasonable.
To begin with, I think $100 is less than you deserve for one session. I normally ask for $150 to do two songs, but union scale for a session--well, can somebody please remind me? I think standard Nashville scale is $200 for a three-hour block, as many songs as they can extract from you. I got that from a famous jam-band pianist whose name would be immediately familiar to all of you. Chuck Leavell, at the high end, gets $5-10,000 for a several-day block if you want him on your album.
I always ask for cash but am OK with a check from a reputable organization. I wouldn't even think of walking out of any studio situation without at least a check.
Luckily, that's not how most people work these days. The new industry standard is PayPal. I've worked with a good drummer here in Oxford. When the session is over, he opens up his Mac, logs in, and sends me a PayPal invoice, and I immediately--right then, in the studio--send him payment.
If you don't have a PayPal account, get one. Tell those folks that they'll need to pay the $100 before you do anything more from them. No confrontation, that's just how you do business. And if they'd like you to come back for a touch up session, that...well, that's another session. You'll give them a break and do it for $50, but they'll need to pay you cash at the conclusion of the session. Ideally you'd get this in an email.
That's what I'd do. They've beaten you down in Austin, man. I've heard that the situation is really bad there.
But no, you're 100% in the right here, and they're being unprofessional. They shouldn't have let you leave the studio without a check in your hand, at bare minimum.
Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2012 7:32 PM
|
kudzurunner
3301 posts
Jun 11, 2012
7:21 PM
|
Shortly after Margo Lewis of Talent Consultants International picked up Satan and Adam, flew us to the NOLA jazzfest, then took us on tour as Bo Diddley's opening act, she gave me a piece of advice that has remained my gold standard.
"You can always find people who will pay you less than you're worth," she said. "That's easy. They key is knowing your price, setting your price, and holding the line. If you do that, some people will refuse to pay you that. Others will be happy to pay you that. Over time, if it's a reasonable price, that will become your price. That's your price. And some of the folks who walked away at first will come back and pay you what you're worth."
You can always find people who will pay you less than you're worth. That's easy. You can always find clients who will disrespect you, fail to pay you, ask you for more work.
To me, the answer here is simple: See the situation for what it is, politely but firmly ask for your money before you take another step, and then hold to that.
What they will try to do, I assure you, is say, "Well just come back in, do the second session, and we'll pay you when it's over." Then they may or may not pay you. THEY WILL RETAIN ALL THE POWER. That's no good. Right now, you've actually got some power: They want what you've got. Apparently they want some more of your harmonica. Time to find out how badly they want it! If they want it badly enough, they'll pay you the $100 before you take another step. They need to pay you that $100 before you leave your house. No ifs, ands, or buts. No promises of "We'll give you cash [or a check] when you arrive and then pay the rest when the second session is over." Bullshit.
You need to politely make clear that you don't leave your house, much less make more music for them, until you've been paid for the session you've already given them. No need for a bad attitude. In fact, you should be really friendly about the whole thing. But firm. "I'm afraid I can't do that," you should say when they press you to come back. They'll feel that, and your firmness will call their hand.
PS: If they say "No extra money," then you should say, "Please pay me the $100 we agreed on or I'm afraid I'll have to take you to small claims court." And mean it. And do it, if they don't pay you.
As for what nacoran says: Hell no. I wouldn't even think about working for these folks again. They're unprofessional and they're treating you like shit. I would view this whole situation as a learning experience. As you've said, it's not about the money. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. It's about learning what does and doesn't work in this sort of situation, and about testing the validity of Margo Lewis's hypothesis. In the long run, of course, it's about the money--and only if you test the validity of the hypothesis for real will you anchor youself firmly in that money-stream. Otherwise you're always finally at the whim of the next un-professional who calls you.
Thanks for taking the risk of bringing this issue to light, Michael. We can all learn something by pooling horror stories and wisdom here.
Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2012 7:35 PM
|
LSC
228 posts
Jun 11, 2012
7:32 PM
|
Not paying on the day is one issue. Though, sure, it's the norm, it's quite obvious you're dealing with amateurs. One should expect them to know little at best.
I try and make it a rule to always state when and how I get paid but particularly to make it clear to those I suspect lack experience. I ask for cash on the day and offer to invoice them. Sometimes people can be leery of cash because there is no paper trail. That's also fine. The IRS and accountants like that paper. $100 that's normally not a problem. Businesses pay out of petty cash all the time.
In any event, they ultimately acted like fools jacking you around over chump change but the situation possibly could have been avoided by making a different assumption from the beginning.
As far as the call back, hell yeah charge them. It is in fact a 2nd session, even if you charge per song. They should take responsibility for calling it a wrap when it wasn't.
I think $50 is reasonable but I'd put a 30 min time limit on it. If in the event they ran the clock out with 47 takes and they wanted still more..., "Notes for notes, Pal. Notes for notes." If they don't agree fine, they still owe you $100 for the work done. And that would be my next question to them, "So when can I pick up my money?"
If they do agree.., "So can you have $150 cash waiting for me when I get there please?" I'd just make it clear in a business like way. If there's four "producers" surely one of them must have heard of an ATM. And what kind of "money guy" takes a week to come up with $100 or $150? Sounds like a bunch of wannabees.
If they do play silly buggers and not cough up the dough because you made conditions on coming back, I'd suggest you write it off to yet more experience - as if we needed more experience - Let karma take care of them, while at the same time making sure anybody that brought their names up is made aware of how they do business.
LSC
Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2012 7:42 PM
|
waltertore
2321 posts
Jun 11, 2012
7:36 PM
|
Michael: This is a typical scenaro from my experiences. The more full time you become (and are not the top 10 in your genere) the more these things happen. Bassists and drummers are about the only 2 positions that can demand a lot up front because the good ones are always in shortage. But even in austin the great ones play for next to nothing most of the time. People here can say what they want but when you are living off your music and the scene is bare bones/flakey with cash, you either get with it or find a day job. Austin never has paid musicians to play in austin. Heck I could have jimmy carl black on drums, charlie sexton on guitar, speedy sparks on bass, bobby keys on sax, in my band and a bunch of guys like evan johns, david grisom, lee roy parnell, and such sit in during the night, and we were paid $100 or less for the entire night. I often played 10 gigs a week and was lucky to come out with a couple hundred dollars. the difference then was the rents were cheap($200/month for a house in town), gas was cheap, hotels were cheap, food was cheap, and most places fed you for free and gave you all you wanted to drink. Also austin was in a depressed economic state and people tended to share food and gear liberally. Building owners were giving their spaces to people wanting to open clubs for next to nothing. I think there was close to 150 clubs in town that had live music at the peak of the scene. The studios were cheap as well. Now it is yuppified to death, expensive as heck, and the music pay is still the same with about 60% of the clubs gone under.
When I was playing with cool papa out in oakland we stole the house PA once when the owner canceled our gig. He told us to go home when we got to the club. He wouldn't give us gas money or anything. Long story short we ended up pulled over by a load of CHIP police cars and forced to lay face first on the ground on Hwy 101 as they checked our van for automatic weapons. the owner said we robbed him at gunpoint. I have pulled pistols on bar owners, beat up a few managers, taken tvs off the wall, opened cash registers and taken my promised money out, etc. That stuff was stupid but I was young and stupid. I am lucky to be alive. Today I would ask for the money and if they don't give it up, say you can't do anymore. I am glad I went to college and got my teaching certificate. I no longer have to haggle over this stuff. Now my teaching supports my music and instead of my fists, baseball bats, and guns, doing my collecting, I state what I need and it is either a yes or no. Either way I will still eat and have shelter. this makes it easy but when I was living off music it was near impossible to pull more money out of someplace than they were offering because there was a zillion other bands wanting that night on the calendar. Most people that play for a hobby will never understand the real emotions that go on with musicians allowing themselves to get screwed unless they equate it to their day jobs where they compromise(get screwed) more than they would like to because they need to keep an income coming in. If you go walking in with contracts and such most people running clubs/studio sessions, other than the top tier guys with management with clout, will laugh in your face and tell you to get out. That stuff works for big names and for part-timmers that play a few gigs a year in places that will work with that. If you are full time(and not a top draw) and pull that stuff out your reputation will preceed you and soon you will be a hobbyist. Walter
----------
walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
4,000+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
jbone
954 posts
Jun 11, 2012
7:36 PM
|
it's right in principle. but i think once you take a harp out of a case with nothing up front, or seeing the cash, you have made yourself liable.
my wife and i spent a lot of time and money going to clarksdale a dozen times or so on the promise of making good money. every time we went we justified it as a mini vacation to blues mecca. and we did have some really cool experiences there. but in the final analysis, the people we trusted to help make the weekends pay off- at all- let us down totally and saved their own ass every single time. the last straw was appointing me as valet, driver, and harp tweaker to a certain prick who shall remain unnamed, but i assure you is well regarded in blues circles even now. which i did out of friendship to the owners of that particular venue. and my wife- who was definitely NOT comfortable handling someone else's money- being appointed as door person. after which she contracted a nasty case of flu. and aside from the fact this asshole "performer" damaged our p.a. throwing a tantrum, our hosts completely sided with him. did i mention they paid him hundreds of dollars to play to about a dozen people? and paid us nothing? and that the room provided for us to sleep in was about 50 degrees in october?
so please excuse my rant but i got to learn the hard way about getting paid.
these days if i decide to do something for someone, either the pay is understood right up front, or i will do it for free, knowing that my work will be on someone else's cd or whatever. frankly, most recording sessions i've been around have gone basically nowhere unless it was toward my duo making a good cd to sell at gigs and promote with. both of these we've broke even or made a little back through sales. if you factor in writing and arranging and rehearsing and polishing and then paying to record- even if it's dirt cheap- then designing the artwork, coming up with liner notes and credits, and finding a good jobber to reproduce- and let's throw in free mastering since we got very lucky last time- we probably make a couple dollars an hour over all.
what my final thought has been is, we'd better do it out of love foremost and then hope to maybe make a buck here or there to stay in guitar strings and reed plates.
it does get under my skin when i see someone making out on a peer's efforts. or mine. but i think we all just have to protect our own interests unless and until we hit superstar status.
----------
http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
|
sammyharp
181 posts
Jun 12, 2012
12:08 AM
|
The question I have is: did you clafiry terms of payment with them prior to doing the session? If you did, you have every reason to be pissed, and not to play the second session until they pay you. If not, you can't expect them to have the money at the gig. I've played lots of recording sessions in the US and in europe, and terms of payment differs greatly from gig to gig. If you don't clarify beforehand, you have no idea what to expect. As long as they pay you within a reasonable time(within 31 days of the gig) you have nothing to complain about.
----------
|
mlefree
68 posts
Jun 13, 2012
10:24 AM
|
+1 with sammyharp. I'd print a business card with your marketing info on the front and your terms on the back. $X per hour, $Y for travel time, payment at the time of service, same charges for return services, etc. Maybe even have 'em initial a copy that you keep.
That may scare a few jobs off though. Like anything, you have to strike a balance that works for you. At least you're getting gigs! Good on ya, Michael.
Michelle
|
Michael Rubin
565 posts
Jun 13, 2012
10:46 AM
|
Sammyharp, I have done many studio sessions a year for around 20 years. I have NEVER not been paid at the session before. You may be right that I should not feel upset since I did not set up the agreement. But it just seems common knowledge to me.
Everyone else,At this point, I have not been paid. I did get a nice email saying they could not pay me for the extra day but understood if I could not come out for free. If they pay me by Friday I am cool with that.
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2012 11:01 AM
|
atty1chgo
367 posts
Jun 13, 2012
12:14 PM
|
Ask for the $150 in cash before you even plug in your microphone. If they don't have it, walk right out the door. It is the duplicity at the point of the first prospective payment that bothers me. No checks. Cash on the barrelhead.
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2012 12:16 PM
|
hvyj
2462 posts
Jun 13, 2012
12:59 PM
|
Well, you can be non confrontational in the way you put it to them. Like, "Ok, but we need to get the business end of this squared up before the next session. I'll do it for $50 which is somewhat of a discounted rate, but we need to get squared up on the $100 for what I've already done and the $50 before the next session. If we can do that, I'm happy to help you finish getting this wrapped up" or something like that. No reason not to be tactful. If they hesitate, just emphasize, "We need to get squared up on the finances. I enjoy working for you, but business is business, I'm a full time musician and this is how I make my living, and i think I've been patient about this, so I'm not trying to give you a hard time. We just need to get the business end wrapped up before the next session." Handle it BEFORE you show up for the session.
|
CarlA
39 posts
Jun 13, 2012
5:05 PM
|
Wow! I always wondered why most musicians struggled financially. Now i see why! Seems like alot of time, effort, planning, etc for $100 bucks, especially if you don't get paid at all.
|
Post a Message
|
