Here's an impromptu explore I laid down today, just learning my way around 3rd position a bit. Hope you enjoy it some. I'm playing an old GM - the kind with the pins instead of screws - in Bb (3rd position is then Cm). These old ones require a lot more breath force than the newer ones, which I admit I sometimes like. Not always, for sure. There's that haunting sound of this minor key that is really appealing for blues, I think.
There are much more knowledgeable people on this forum than me,but I believe you're playing in 2nd and not 3rd position. Hard to tell without a backing track,but I'm pretty sure. Play along to something in C and check.
Hmmmm.. It almost sounds like you are in 2nd position especially the way you resolve some licks. The 4 draw bent is not something I use a lot in 3rd position blues as it is the major 7th.Your bends should be on 6 draw and reslove down to 4 draw unbent. Find a slow blues backing in C and try it.
You are most definitely in second position. What I am interested in, as a teacher, is what makes you think you are in third? What does third position mean to you besides being in the key of Cm on a Bb harp? I recommend my youtube videos, they will guide you to understanding this stuff and are geared precisely towards that.
This is pretty scary. I'm playing exactly the notes Jason is demonstrating, but on a Bb harp instead of an A harp. And then of course other stuff also. I'm playing the 3rd position blues scale all the way from the 1 draw up to the 8 draw at one point (I think I go all the way. I'd have to listen again to be sure).
Yep, I listened again. The whole 2 octave 3rd position blues scale is all there. Maybe I've got some 2nd position notes in the mix (by mistake perhaps, but I take liberties), but I think you'll hear the 3rd position in there.
????????????? ---------- Matthew
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 4:32 PM
I find learning positions always makes more sense over a drone - it gives you a constant point of reference.
3rd has a minor feel - there was a point towards the end it started getting there, but you're resorting to too much 2nd position style trills and glisses.
Play something that sits comfortably on top of the C drone on your Bb harp. Stop worrying about trying to do fast licks and those trills and glisses, you're just defaulting back to 2nd position stuff - just make it musical. Start by just working up and down the minor pentatonic. Then making sad, minor melodies. Work out how to resolve a phrase in the right place. With the drone you have a constant reference - the drone will guide you (and it sounds pretty cool too).
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 5:39 PM
Harp-er, I listened to the whole thing this time. I believe around 3:20 is when you hit the 3rd position blues scale.
I think one of the things that seems like cross is you often resolve on 2 draw and 3 blow, the cross harp root note. Also, there is a lot of 4 bend in there, which is not in the 3rd position blues scale, but instead, the 2nd position scale. I am not saying you cannot play any note in any position, but positions are like dialects, people tend to use certain notes in certain ways.
So, what are the holes in the third position blues scale and where are you using them? What are the notes in the 2nd position blues scale and where are you using them? How often do you resolve on C (3rd) and how often F (2nd). Just things to think about. You have nothing to worry about, you are learning and exploring.
@MrV - thanks for the suggestions. I may try that drone thing some time.
@MichaelRubin - thanks for your insights. I do tend to stretch the limits of things as I learn and explore, so I understand that this might be confusing to folks listening for an orthodox version of something. I'm not an orthodox person, and I have a perhaps larger tolerance for the outer limits. If I was forced to learn by staying within the strictest limits of something, I'd probably give it up as boring and meaningless (to me). I learn the ground rules as I develop what actually interests me, rather than the other way round. In the end, I believe I'm better off for it. I appreciate your validation about learning and exploring. ---------- Matthew
Yup, you're positively sitting in 2nd position for most of it. Here's my suggestion: Try using ONLY holes 4,5,6 and see what you can get out of those. In 3rd position, 4,5,6 has the same function as 2,3,4 in 2nd. So, where you would usualy lean on the 4 draw bend, you're gonna lean on the 6 draw bend. Instead of resolving on the 2 draw, you'll resolve on the 4 draw. 3rd pos. is suprisingly similar to 2nd pos. if you follow this method. I'll be posting a video for you very soon.
I think you just need to get that mental shift to happen to the point where you're really hearing the scale and chords of 3rd, instead of using your muscle memory licks in 2nd as a departure point. You CAN use some of that if you shift it, you just need to figure out what. ----------
@ sammyharp - Thanks for you feedback. I look forward to your video.
There seems to be a lot of concern that the 4 draw bend is not part of the 3rd position blues scale. Well, it may not be part of the scale, but it is clearly, clearly, an appropriate note in 3rd position, as is the one draw bend, which is also not a part of the scale itself, or the 6OB or 7OD for that matter, all of which can be used in 2nd position too. Can we allow some creative leeway here, or is it required that one stick only to the notes of the scale? Of course it isn't. Just sayin'. ---------- Matthew
Last Edited by on May 15, 2012 9:42 AM
Harmonic Minor Scale uses that natural 7th note in 3rd position (4 draw bent a half)
What we ussually hear is the Natural Minor Scale that uses the 4blow for the 7th tone.
So, 4 draw bent is not wrong, it's just different and not as common. I may even try the 4 draw bent tonight with the gang. I'll let you know how it goes. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on May 15, 2012 9:55 AM
Major/minor sevenths notwithstanding, the bottom line is this: You say you are playing in C minor but everyone who listens to it hears it as F.
If that's okay with you, then there's nothing more to say, but if you want us to hear C minor, you need to change something about the way you're approaching this.
@JimR - I'll be interested to hear how that goes tonight. "Different and not as common" always works for me.
@timeistight - what I say I'm doing is exploring and learning. I have no problem correcting what might want correcting, and I also have no problem asking others to expand their notions of what they think they need to be hearing in order to fit the possibilities. I think I understand your bottom line point of view though. ---------- Matthew
Playing harmonic minor in third pos. is fine--but it ain't blues. And what is played in the OP recording ain't third pos. either.
There's certain SCALES that define each position. Playing blues in second position, the player can be pretty undisciplined because it's actually hard to hit a really bad note. But if you don't use scale discipline playing in the higher positions, you go out of key pretty easily. and if you go out of key, you are no longer playing in the target position.
Chord tones are certainly a part of it, too, but scale tones are easier to identify as one is starting to get comfortable in different positions since they break down into more or less easily recognizable breath patterns.
If you are playing minor with other musicians and try to play in 3rd pos doing what is in the OP, you would be audibly out of key. Btw, One of the reasons i like using 5th and 4th pos. for minor key playing is because playing in 3rd requires you to be more careful--but sometimes 3rd is clearly the best position for the material that's being played, so it's useful to know how to do it.
"I have a perhaps larger tolerance for the outer limits." But most musicians you may be playing with will usually expect you to stay in key, which is a de facto outer limit other players will impose on you whether you happen agree with them or not.
@hvyj - no argument with the need for playing in key.
I wonder why playing harmonic minor ain't blues though? Are you saying that ONLY certain notes can be acceptable if you want to call it "blues"? I understand that certain notes are required, but does that mean that other notes are forbidden? Is this a function of what constitutes blues, or of what constitutes a particular idea of what constitutes blues? As I said above, I'm not an orthodox person, musically or otherwise - that is not to say that I don't respect the need for basics, etc.- so I'm interested in these sorts of distinctions. Thanks. ---------- Matthew
I believe blues to be fairly chromatic, meaning you can use any note at any time. But there are ways to use it. It takes time to figure out what harmonic minor sounds like and where it fits in blues. One thing you may consider learning is how to suggest a 12 bar blues progression without the band. Think of what chords would be played if a rhythm player was there. Think what notes make up those chords and where they are on the harp. That may help your 3rd position take shape.
I just listened to it again. You're definitely playing in F. You keep resolving to the notes in the F7 chord; in fact, you often play the F major triad as a chord. When you do finally come down on that low C, it sounds like a turnaround.
There's nothing "outer limits" about any of this. You're just playing in second position which most of us spend most of our time doing.
@harp-er: There ARE some blues that have major 7ths. Also, the major 7th of the key is the 5b of the IV chord and the major 3rd of the V chord (which is a chord tone). So, yeah, there's ways to use that note playing blues. But, in general, it's not a conventional/traditional bluesy sound. So, it's probably not something to emphasize when you are starting out trying to get comfortable playing traditional BLUES in 3rd position. You won't sound like you are playing in the blues idiom (or in the Dorian mode, either) if you freely play major 7th.
Harmonic minor is not called that often and won't sound right if force fit over minor blues or Dorian mode material. it fits over harmonic minor material. AND to play harmonic minor you need 6b which is neither a blues scale nor a Dorian mode note. Unless you OB 6b is only available in 3rd pos at 3D*.
4th position is a better choice, IMHO, for playing harmonic minor--you bend for major 7 at 6D* and 3D*** and you can really wail on those bends. In 4th your 6b and 3b are built in w/o having to bend.
Last Edited by on May 15, 2012 1:00 PM
It isn't that you can't use all the notes. You just have to know when to stay in and when to go out if you are trying to create anything coherent.
In your clip, it is solo riffing...there aren't really any rules you have to adhere to.
I apologize that I don't have this as an mp3 or solo only version to share...
During the solo, I play all sorts of "wrong" notes, but they are very intentional and I can explain why they work. The song is pretty much Dorian - which let's me use a minor pentatonic, blues scale, and Dorian mode. There isn't a real formal chord structure to jam over, so I have a ton of freedom.
The bass line I sang is even more vague and doesn't really create any sort of limitations to what sort of minor playing I can do...anything is fair game.
HOWEVER, I imply a Dorian vamp throughout most the solo and throw in some not-so-Dorian notes and lines here and there to create an out feeling.
Namely, around the 2:45 mark I hit a blow bend for expression that gets scarey close to playing a major scale over minor (not fun on the ears), and then a few second later hit a riff with the 6ob that pushes towards Aeolian jamming.
After that, I am pretty much straight Dorian until the end (the beginning is all Dorian too).
This isn't some elaborate or masterful solo...it is just relatively coherent (and I guess not at all "blues" by note choice). What I am getting at is it is cool to create a theme through scale/note choice - and other dynamics - and then throw some curveballs. You don't want the whole thing to be a curveball.
Think of the audience...if you play all 12 chromatic tones in all three octaves in every single song, you probably 1.) are doing to sound repetitive really fast 2.) Going to sound too out and 3.) not create memorable solos.
IMHO, awesome solos balance a strong sense of melody and harmony with dynamics and emotion. If you want any prayer of the audience staying engaged with solos, you have to find ways to serve the SONG and not the EGO.
The same can actually be said of solo riffing. Check out tunes by guys like Sonny Boy and Carlos Del Junco where they can create an implied progression/arrangement and then solo around it without even needing other instrumental support.
One of my favs is Nine Below Zero.
Here is a bad example from 4yrs earlier:
This is much more just running up scales and patterns without really trying to serve the song...I am just riffing away - and much like you trying to push myself. I am not embarrassed, I had been playing about 6 years and was trying to tackle a song in a way I wasn't totally ready for. Same thing, though 3rd position Dorian.
First clip I use out notes to create a bit of tension and release...second clip I just run the same scale up and down and totally ignore what the band is doing. IMO, the first clip is a much more powerful and memorable solo. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on May 15, 2012 1:14 PM
Great comments and information. Thanks all. Maybe I should be exploring 4th position too! Wait. One thing at a time.
@harpninja - to my ears, everything you did in both videos worked. I didn't hear notes that I'd say should not have been there. Both of these were 3rd position? Well, does that mean you can include some of those less common notes that aren't, say, traditional in a blues context? If so, I don't see a problem. I'm not committed to pure tradition. More interested in personal exploration and workable sonic possibilities. I think you're being too hard on yourself. ---------- Matthew
@harp-er: There's all kinds of cool stuff that can be played in 3rd pos. But your title for this thread was "Exploring 3rd position BLUES." The Eddie Harris tune "Cold Duck Time" lays out well in 3rd. "Riders on the Storm" and "So what" are playable in 3rd if you use 2 harps.
4th is an easy position in that there's few or no bends needed (except for 3D** to get the tonic in the lower octave) and there's no chords available. But not everyone finds it easy to play without bending or using chords because they are so used to bending and chording.
In general, I think emotion in minor key playing is more effectively conveyed through note MOVEMENT rather than note bending. Which means understanding what scale you are working with for the melody of the tune for starters.
YOU CAN'T BEND RANDOMLY in positions other than 2d or you will throw yourself out of key.
Last Edited by on May 15, 2012 2:29 PM
Easily the most thorough and easily understood explanation of third position i have discovered is on David Barretts Blues harmonica.Com website. This guy is a masterfull teacher and goes into great detail on every area that he teaches, check out the website you will be Amazed.
A cool tune to play in third position is Sonny Boy II's "My Younger Days." The song (as he does it) is in the Key of C and he plays an F harp in second position. I play along on a Bb which is third. The reasons I tried this (to answer Michael Rubin) are: 1. to play along with Sonny Boy and harmonize. 2. It sounds cool on this song - kind of dark. If I can figure out how to post a video, I'll try to do that later perhaps (not that I am great shakes).
@hvyj - could be that I stepped out of the bounds of what would normally be considered blues. If so, that was my mistake, and not something deliberately intended. Now, having maybe done that, I'm thinking this has opened up for me an expanded view of the possibilities of 3rd position. That's good with me too. I do appreciate your sense of, perhaps, loyalty to the more pure - if that's not too strong a word? - blues form. Every tradition needs its protectors, and that's a noble thing.
I should perhaps also say that I'm pretty weak on theory, and play completely by ear. This can be seen as a disadvantage, I'm sure. I justify it to myself by knowing that I have no professional ambitions or intentions regarding playing music, or even, really, any intentions of playing with other musicians. It seems to be a private pleasure. If some opportunity would happen to fall in my lap, I suppose I'd consider it, but I'm making no efforts to make this happen. Having said that, I can relate to Harpninja's solo noodling/riffing, in which pretty much anything that one likes is OK. Again, I say this with full understanding of and respect for the necessity of fundamental musical integrity when playing with others. ---------- Matthew
@harp-er: Well, whether what you were playing is stylistically blues or not, whatever you were playing was in the key of F, not the 3rd position key of C or C minor.
Harpninja's riffing was NOT performed with disregard for key.
Loyalty to the pure ain't my thing. But on the other hand, i will alter how I'm playing depending on the style of music being played. I'm no traditionalist by ny means, but I generally wouldn't play flat 7ths on a country tune any more than I would play major 7ths on Chicago blues. I try to play whatt fits the style even though I just about never play "just like the record".
I guess if you are just sitting around playing by yourself for your own amusement it doesn't matter what key you are in or what scales you are working off of so long as you are having fun. Personally, I get a lot out of the interaction involved in playing live with other musicians and I try hard to have what i play sound musically acceptable in an ensemble context. Sometimes i do better than other times, but, for me, I need to play with others in order to enjoy playing. But doing what YOU enjoy is what counts.
You know, all i ever really wanted to do was become able to play well enough to be able to function with musical competence sitting with a band for a few songs. The gigging I'm off into these days came out of that. And the theory I know i just picked up from various musicians I've sat in with over the years as i asked questions trying to figure out what the hell i was supposed to be doing.
Last Edited by on May 15, 2012 5:30 PM
There is a wealth of useful information in this thread. I suggest you go back and read it all.
With absolutely no intended malice: accept the gentle criticism (I've seen others get a far tougher ride) and accept that you are NOT playing 3rd position. Forget the notion that you're playing an unorthodox version of 3rd position; you're not.
This stuff doesn't come easily - there's no shame in finding it tough - but right now the only person you're kidding is yourself.
@MrV - I'm not denying that. I'm not rejecting the feedback I'm getting. In fact, I accept it with gratitude. Communication in any form is a difficult thing, and much more so via an online forum.
Just so there's no more wondering about whether I'm hearing what you and others have said: I get it. The piece I posted did not represent 3rd position, but 2nd. I'm OK with that information. No hard feelings. No denial. Thanks to all for being interested enough to keep this thread going with lots of valuable information and insight. Always more to learn and explore.
And, at the same time, at least for me, some other interesting ideas and questions have been opened up for me to consider. Just sayin'. ---------- Matthew
Last Edited by on May 15, 2012 6:29 PM
Hi harper - Jimi Lee has a great minor track in G that is an excellent BT for playing 3rd to... I'm' going record a video of using it with a low "F" harp and you'll be able to hear how 3rd pos sounds real good playing on that track... Thanks for posting your song, your on your way - keep on harpin!!!
Last Edited by on May 16, 2012 10:25 AM
Here's the video I made to help you out. If you have any questions about anything, feel free to ask. I plan on making more videos and posting them soon. Have fun!
great job sammy! i think that restricting your lesson to the mid register was a good idea. third pos. on a diatonic utilizing the 1,2,3. holes and 9-10 can be taught further on down the line.
the same pattern on the diatonic 3rd pos.you demonstrated( more or less) is used on chromatic harmonica in third. as in holes 1-4, 5-8.
once a person has the mid register diatonic 3rd pos. figured out, switching to a chro for third is like falling off a log. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
@scojo - thanks for that video. I'm not good enough to tell one position from the other in there, but if I listen to it enough I might begin to pick it up.
I have it in mind to practice Charlie's (Musselwhite) Christo Redemptor as a 3rd position lesson on a classic and hauntingly beautiful song. The melody itself is pretty simple I've found, with a sometimes challenging 3D bend (especially when it's held for a long time), and you can play at least parts of it in all three octaves, so as to gain the experience of using the whole harp in 3rd position. If I get it to sound reasonably good I'll post it. ---------- Matthew
Last Edited by on May 17, 2012 8:07 AM
i think i am with Michael Rubin... what most makes harmonica players sound like they are droning on is that they are playing mostly safe notes that work across most or all the changes.. this is staying on the blues scale in one key... It is the notes that are "safe" only during chord changes, if emphasized, make it clear you are in the chord structure.. this is distinct from using chromatic approaches to get from one note to another or intentionally creating dissonance from what the ear "expects" to hear at a certain point.
Does this thread illustrate the Dunning-Kruger effect? ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by on May 18, 2012 4:25 AM
