@chromaticblues: tmf is right. It's only MUSICIANS who learn chrom in terms of keys. Blues harmonica players think in terms of breath patterns instead of notes, and they will use chroms in different keys in order to utilize similar/familiar breath patterns like we do on diatonic harps. So, yeah, blues harmonica players tend think of chrom in terms of POSITIONS. For musicians, though, it makes more sense and is easier to think of chrom in terms of keys. But tmf is talking about blues harmonica players specifically.
@tmf OK now lets talk about it rationally. If you have something to say that I can learn from that's great! I don't know everything I never said I did. Now please explain what you meant in your 1:29 (other than fact you think I'm full of shit)! We'll get to that! A Crom is ET tuned so I'm not sure what you meant by ear friendly notes. Then I think you were talking about scale degrees, but you were very vague. The whole thing about positions. You and hvyj are right I know blues harp players refer to positions on the chrom, but that doesn't make it right was my point! Ask any college music teacher if what you explained to me is correct. I honestly don't think he or she will even know what your talking about. That's what I was referring to. OK that's not important. The very first passage in the chrom solo ends on the 1 blow. How is that 6th position? Please explain your 1:29 post first. I just don't understand what you meant.
Last Edited by on May 07, 2012 5:06 PM
I don't get why the key of B, 6th position is being brought up as the home key. This tune is in the key of C. The B blues scale is: B D E F F# A B. All these notes can be used in a blues in the key of C in one way or another but the song is in 1st position C on a C chromatic.
@Piro39-It's not B-it is B#. From my previous post-Pat Missin explains it well- Pat is consired to be very knowledgable not just in blues harp,but is highly regarded by many musicians in other fields of music as well.
This piece is in the key of C and Walter is using a Bb diatonic in third position. He switches to a standard C 64 chromatic, which I suppose means that he is playing it in first position, but as he is mostly concentrating on the draw notes with the slide held in, it is perhaps easier to think of it as being a variation of sixth position (or if you really insist, you could claim it to be in the key of B# and that Walter is playing in thirteenth position!).
whats this Bb diatonic stuff i thought it was all in C 1st button out and C 6th button in? oh i also found out a the first three notes of a koch will work like a chromatic with the button. so the big koch is out of the question i tried a Bb it didnt sound at all right. i think its all a chrom 64 now where did this Bb diatonic come back into play? i thought that myth was busted.
Ah wow what a cracker thread :) Billy that was brilliant. I thought no one was gonna comment for a while and next time I look there are 57 posts! And what awesome posts. Billy your remark about spending more time pursuing getting laid was pure gold! Especially amid all this arguing about positions. So it looks like a bunch of confusion about stuff to me. I tend to prefer chromB's explanation just because I think it's easier to understand; you put the button in and play -4,-5,+6,-6, button out +7,in -7,-8 and you got the commonly thought of 'blues scale' in C. That's not bad. 6 of the 7 notes. Yeah, I don't see how it helps to call it 6th position, or to call C B#, but that may just indicate my limitations. I have seen C called B# before, in Frank de Rose's book about blues bass, and I forgot to ask about it. I'm guessing that re the chro harp its just to indicate that it's the B with the button in rather than the C with slide out? Anyway, that's all good to think about. Thanks to all. Oh yeah, I like that bugs bunny image too, Billy. Great pictures! ----------
No intention to stir up the debate again, but I had to apply my own ears to this topic. I listened to "That's It" carefully tonight, here on the West Coast. Here's what I found:
"That's It" is a minor key blues harmonica instrumental. It has 7 verses; each is 12 bars. The key is C minor throughout.
The harps and keys of harps used throughout? Just two-- a B flat Marine Band and a 16 hole 64 Chromonica in the key of C, played with the button pushed in.
Here's what I used, verse by verse, to get every note:
1. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 2. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 3. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 4. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 5. 16 hole C Chromonica with the button pushed in, played in 6th position 6. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 7. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position
The Chromonica with the key pushed in gives you a C# harmonica, or a D flat, if you will. 6th position for a D flat harmonica is C.
An interesting revelation, for me, is that Little Walter relied only on the draw notes in the 5th verse, the only one a chromatic was used for. No blow notes; neither was the button ever released during the solo, to my ears. Also, no bends. His "home" note for that verse was the fourth draw note on the chromonica with the button pushed in; i.e. "C".
If anyone says that a chromatic was used in any but the 5th verse, listen closely to the timbre of the the harp in the other verses-- it doesn't have that rich, silky sound a chromatic has, and it has all the hallmark sounds of a richter tuned harp played expertly in third position, with all the requisite bends.
As an aside, Little Walter's third position work in all but the 5th verse, as I listened to it, steered me to notes that are there, but usually not played by me in 3rd position because of the set patterns I acquired and lazily stuck with over the last 3 decades. So the song was a revelation for this alone; thank you Walter!
About "My Eyes Keep Me in Trouble"-- I agree wholeheartedly with Billy Blues as quoted by tmf714: "My Eyes Keep me in Trouble-- Walter begins the song in 1st position on the diatonic (C) harp and then switches to a C Chromatic for the solo." That's exactly what I hear. I can get all the notes in that song by playing all verses except the solo with a Marine Band in C, first position, then, for the solo, using a C Chromatic with the button pushed in; nothing but draw notes and the button kept in during the whole solo.
Back to "That's It". Those of you who would disagree with my analysis, pull out your 10 hole B flat diatonic and your "C" Chromatic, if you have one. Play along in the way I described (Lots of precise, instant bends to pitch required for the 3rd position work!). Play the chromatic solo in the 5th verse with the button pushed in, using nothing but draw notes.
After that, come back and tell me I'm wrong, being specific about the notes that can't be got with these two harps, and where they appear in this instrumental.
As a further aside-- the article by Billy Blue analyzing songs where Little Walter craftily switches harps mid-song is an eye opener. You can read it here:
yeah man its an adventure, 3 weeks ago i was in holland with a new chromatic toy just messin around lookin for cool stuff to try to play. relaxed no pressure to blow an audiences face off in 2nd. messin with a special 20 Db and playing all my childhood negro spirituals, with farty overblows in first, and remembering the magic of it yknow before that blue devil of 2nd hits you and nothing is the same again. then i try adding a chromatic thinking im playing in third, turns out to be C first and c 6th button in and C 6th on the Db sp20 not first in Db that is whack. and that button in thing in 6th is one of the most groovy blues things ive ever herd. i never thought i played in third i just recently found out sonnys i dont know is third. and ive been playing it solo for 30 years. i think im gonna explore blues in first more practice some jimmy reed overblow stuff make it as unfolky as possible. i still dont know whats going on with the list is there a Bb diatonic in this peice or not? i also dont see whay walter would have tried this twice if it was a failure once. and how did stevie make it possible? i think i will try it again and do the koch/super chromonica thing the way i did. pick out the cool sounds i liked and play with those. and forget walter note for note. just a cool thing to do not quite diatonic not quite chromatic. then that whack button in thing man thats something. i cant quite describe it. and it works on a Db diatonic too. maybe something with an F a Db and a 365 C.
Last Edited by on May 08, 2012 8:42 PM
This reminds me of the joke: how many harp players does it take to change a light bulb? One to screw in the bulb and 3 arguing about how LW would do it!
The bottom line is the chrom solo on That's It did not work musically. We'd be better off asking Dennis Gruenling how he did it much more successfully.
Actually it never left. the argument was about the short chromatic harp section. all agreed that LW switched harps between a Bb diatonic and a C chromatic. all agree he was trying to play in C.
but some heatedly disagree about the way he was attempting to play in the key of C/Cm on chromatic harmonica. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
So-- I listened to Dennis Gruenling's version of "That's It" tonight. It is uncannily similar to Little Walter's original, with one exception, which I'll get to later.
Both run about 3 minutes and 13 seconds, both are in C minor, both have 7 verses of 12 bars each. Both use the same harps at the same places in the song, i.e., a 10 hole diatonic in the key of B flat and a 16 hole 64 Chromonica in the key of C, played with the button pushed in. Neither player released the button at any time during the chromatic solo in the 5th verse.
(As an aside, although I say both songs are in C minor, going by the notes coming from the harps, I wonder if the musical backup would be considered to be in C major, causing some of the tension/discord heard in both versions. I'll leave that to someone else to figure out.)
Here's what both Walter and Dennis used, verse by verse, to get every note:
1. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 2. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 3. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 4. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 5. 16 hole C Chromonica with the button pushed in, played in 6th position 6. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position 7. 10 hole B flat Marine Band played in 3rd position
There are obviously subtle differences between the players in timing and note placement throughout the song. But here's the only the difference I hear in note CHOICE during the chromatic solo:
Little Walter relied only on draw notes.
Dennis Gruenling relied MOSTLY on draw notes, but added ONE, and only one, blow note during the solo. He played that note more than once. It was "F", the blow note in the 10th hole of a 16 hole "C" Chromatic with the button pushed in. Listen to the song at the 2:00 minute mark, and the 2:09 mark. The actual pattern he used, in the 10th hole of his chromatic, was blow 10 - draw 10 - blow 10; or F, F#, F. He did this on two occasions.
As before, if you want to check what I've said about Gruenling's version, pull out your 10 hole B flat diatonic and your "C" Chromatic, if you have one. Use a B flat harp in third position for all verses but the 5th. For the 5th, play the chromatic solo with the button pushed in, using nothing but draw notes, except at the 2:00 and 2:09 mark-- try blowing in the 10th hole at those points, and you will hear the note Gruenling added that appears nowhere in Walter's original version.
As to which version is more successful musically, if you focus only on the chromatic solo, I agree with Tuckster that Gruenling was more successful. It's not because they used different harps, keys or positions. I'm guessing it's because Little Walter probably threw his backing musicians for a loop by pulling this one out of the hat in the 1950s with little forewarning-- created on the spot, so to speak, and I bet with only one take.
Like the rest of us obsessive harmonica freaks, Dennis Gruenling has had the advantage of hearing, analyzing and dissecting this song since at least the 1990s when it came out on Little Walter's double album, "Blues With a Feeling". This advantage probably shows in his chromatic solo, done in the rarely used (for blues at least) 6th position.
My feeling is that LW was just experimenting and this probably was the first take. He had such good "instincts", he could have tried it without even practicing it. Perhaps right off the top of his head.
Yeah ok, so it's 6th position because the harp can be thought of as a Db harp if you hold the button in. I really think that is splitting hairs and not really very helpful. If it was a solo tuned Db OK, but it's a chromatic harp, and for me the learning to be had from this is about how to play blues in C on a C chromatic. I think it's fair to say it could be thought of as sixth position on a Db. Just not to insist that it's the correct way to think of it ----------
Position is the relationship between the key of the harmonica and the key of the song.
Period.
It has nothing to do with whether the button is in on a chromatic. And yes, in the blues world we do talk about positions on the chromatic.
So if someone is playing in they key of C on a C chromatic, s/he is playing in first position.
That's It is in C. Little Walter is playing a C chromatic. So he's playing in first position. Doesn't matter if the slide is in or if he's using the slide-in Draw C instead of the slide-out Blow C. The song is in C and the harp is in C, so it's first position.
And no, he's not switching around between different chromatics. It's one chromatic in C, and a diatonic in Bb. =========== Winslow
@ Winslow. Would it be correct to say that a position refers to the particular note on which a scale begins? That's the way I've always thought in terms of positions.
Last Edited by DanP on Aug 25, 2016 4:55 PM
If we accept a chromatic harp can also be a 'keyed' instrument, then a C harp played in C is played in 1st position. It doesn't make any difference whether one uses the slide to obtain a note or refrains from using the slide or holds the slide in the entire time. 'Position' is a concept which resides in the mind of the player, not in the harp. 'Position' is not limited to a particular form of scale I.e. 1st position is not restricted to the major scale, 3rd is not simply a Dorian scale, 4th is not he same as natural minor. I understand Rzab liked the OP, but the argument here is from 4 years ago.
C chromatic is still a C when you use the slide. You can play in any position and use the slide. Use of the slide does not determine the position. You can play a C harp in D without using the slide. It's still a C harp. You can play it in Db holding the slide in. Still a C harp. The fact you play the same holes to play the same scale in both C and Dflat doesn't mean you're playing in 1st position in both examples. It might seem OK to think of it that way, but as soon as you stray from diatonic major scale those keys will Lay out differently.
When you play in the key of Eb on a C chromatic, that's 10th position, not third - just follow the circle of fifths clockwise from C to Eb.
But what does this have to do with "That's It?" That tune is in C played on a C chromatic, not in Eb.
Just because you use the slide-in notes to play in C on a C harmonica does not change the fact that you're playing on a C harmonica or the fact that the tune is in the key of C.
By the way, Stevie Wonder used the same fundamental approach in "Fingertips" that Walter attempted on That's It - using the slide-in draw notes to play in C. The advantage of this approach is that you get the tonic note (C) along with the essential blue notes - the flat 3 (Eb), the flat 5 (Gb) and the flat 7 (Bb). But Stevie realized that you also need the full 5 (G), which is a slide-out blow note, and that you can approach the slide-in blue notes from their slide-out counterparts, allowing for all sorts of cool slide ornaments.
@DanP - Keys are about tonal centers. If that's what you mean by "the particular note on which a scale begins," then the answer to your question is yes. For instance, in the key of C, C is the tonal center, and by convention we list the notes in a scale (major, minor, modal, or whatever) starting with the tonic note.
Thank you, Winslow. I don't pretend to know much about music theory. When I first picked up the humble harmonica, I never knew it could so complicated. I'm a diatonic player. I have a chromatic but the few times I play it, I don't use the slider.
I've been dipping my toe into the deep waters of chromatic for about 8 months now.Even as a long time diatonic player,I can't think of positions in respect to chromatic. It seems much easier to think in keys. Sure,the C chromatic lays out mostly like 3rd position on a C diatonic(D minor).Key of C also lays out like 1st position,as long as you're playing C Maj,but once you go beyond that,position concepts pretty much fall apart.
Last Edited by Tuckster on Aug 28, 2016 10:59 PM
I think what you mean is that, say, second position lays out differently on chromatic, because the note layout is different.
But if you pick up a Bb chromatic, the key of F (second position) lays out the same as G does on a C chromatic. And so on, for different keys of chromatic and different positions.
In other words, the position concept works well switching from one key of diatonic to another, and from one key of chromatic to another. Switching between diatonic and chromatic, not so much except in those limited patches where the note layouts happen to coincide between them.
While Little Walter never used anything but a C chromatic, other players used 12-hole chromatics in multiple keys, including George Smith, Rod Piazza, Mark Hummel, Bill Clarke, and Norton Buffalo. And they didn't always play third position (though with the exception of Norton they mostly did).
So the position concept does work on chromatic, if you take it on its own terms. =========== Winslow
Yes,Winslow,I understand that.However,calling Eb 10th position on a C chromatic just gives me a headache.It really gives no insight on how to play Eb. How many players know 10th position? For me,it's just the key of Eb. I think George Smith played in key of C sometimes.Paul DeLay also played in other keys,although I don't know what they were. Wasn't the typical "third position".
Let's say you play Eb position - 10th position - on an F chromatic. Puts you in the key of Ab. Now, trying to think about the relationship between F and Ab could be a lot of thinking, but if you know that's it's just like playing in Eb on a C chromatic, you're way ahead.
Why call it 10th position instead of Eb position but on an F chromatic and therefore in Ab? I think that question models its own answer. It's a way of focusing on the commonalities without having to thread through a lot of detail =========== Winslow
OK,I see what you mean.That's certainly easier than playing Ab on a C.But I'm trying to just use a C chromatic. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. As an accomplished chromatic player,would you call it 10th position?(Eb on a C chrom)
The position concept only mkes sense if you play the same note layout on more than one key of instrument. So for diatonic, it's obviously useful. If you have chromatics in multiple keys, again it can be useful.
However, if you just play a C chromatic, there's no reason to talk about positions. Just play in Eb or G or whatever.
That said, I do play more than one key of chromatic. However, I can play in all 12 keys but have learned primarily on a C chromatic. So internally I think "I'm playing in F# position on a Bb chromatic which puts me in E" rather than thinking about 6th position (while on diatonic I would more likely use the idea of 6th position).
So I guess my advice (to the extent anyone actually wants it) would be to just be aware of the tools, then use whatever works best for you.
Thanks Winslow! I wasn't looking at it from a blues harp player perspective but as a fully chromatic instrument.Most of we blues harp players live in our own unique musical world.Trying to learn chromatic it's a revelation to realise that this is the way all other musicians learn their instruments.This old dog is having a hell of a time learning new tricks.I don't plan on learning more than a few keys,but that should be fine. I also think it helps my diatonic playing. Is it correct to say that we capo in all keys on diatonic like a guitarist?
The analogy between harps in different keys and guitar capos is tempting but imperfect. Here's why.
Let's say you put a capo on the third fret of a guitar neck and then finger an open E chord 1 and 2 frets above the capo. Fingers like E, comes out as G.
But let's say you leave the capo on the third fret, then go up to the fifth fret and finger an A barre chord. It's still an A barre chord because the capo only affects open strings and has no effect on stopped strings. If A is the IV chord in the key of E, then we can't simply go to where we play an A chord and expect to get a C chord (the IV chord in the key of G) just because the capo is there.
When you pick up a diatonic harmonica in a different key, everywhere you go on that harp the notes are going to be higher or lower than on a C harp in an exact proportional correspondence, unlike with a capo where only the open strings are raised in pitch. That's why the capo analogy only works partway. =========== Winslow
That's It is a great LW tune- one of my favorites- except for the chromatic section. It is the only piece of LW playing (the chro section) that I do not like. His intention is of no interest to me as the section is soooo bad. Buuuuut, he can be forgiven for all the joy he's given me, and continues to give over the years. ---------- Have good day. M.A.P. .
If KIm was playing without the lever in.he woulkd be in 10th on a C chrome-with the lever depressed,hes playing in the key of Eb in third positon-and he does hold the lever in for most of the song.
The position approach doesn't properly account for scales in most conversation.
E.g. 2nd on a diatonic is not G major. It's G mixolydian. However, with proper techniques, one can play G major, minor, Dorian, etc. Now there's more than one 2nd position...
The reason positions get so confusing is the repeated patterns between relative majors and minors. Play a C major. Now an A minor. Those are different positions, but the same notes, and many riffs can be used for either key.
C minor is the relative minor of Eb. Playing an instrument that is in the key of Eb will sound right as long as you resolve properly. However, you're playing in C minor if you structure the notes to fit a Cm progression.
Position is not about scales. it's about the relationship between:
1) the key of the harmonica
2) the key you're playing it in.
If you take a C harp and play it in G using the default G mixolydian scale built into the harp, that's second position.
If you use whatever techniques you favor to alter the default mixolydian scale to a G major scale, it's still second position.
If you play it in G minor using whatever it takes to get those notes, it's still second position.
As long it's the key of G on a C harp, regardless of scale and regardless of techniques used, then it's second position.
Simple, really, if you just remember that position is defined by one thing: the relationship between the key of the harmonica and the key you're playing it in.
@Winslow. This is not an argument, simply a question and it's what confuses me. A chromatic harmonica is actually two harmonicas. Take a C-chromatic for example, what you have is one solo tuned diatonic in the key of C and another in C-sharp (or D-flat). When you push the slide in, it activates the D-flat harmonica. What would the difference be (apart from the Richter tuning) if you played a C-diatonic in C and and then picked up a D-flat diatonic and played that in First Position. Would you not be changing keys and therefore be changing positions? Thank you in advance. Again, not an argument, just a state of confusion on my part that maybe you could help clear up.
Last Edited by DanP on Sep 01, 2016 4:28 PM
IMHO, a C chromatic is not 2 parallel solo-tuned diatonics. It is a C chromatic, not a C solo-tuned diatonic and a Db solo-tuned diatonic. You can think of it that way of course, but to my mind the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. However, in order to regard 10th position as 3rd, one has to think of the harp as a pair of solo tuned diatonics. And that analogy may work ok if you stick to one or the other, but it breaks down as soon as you move from one to the other.
@DanP - A chromatic harmonica is a single harmonica, built into a single body. it is not two separate harmonicas. And many chromatics would be impossible to physically separate into two harmonicas in two different keys.
Also, by design the chromatic harmonica does things that would be either impossible, extremely awkward, or unmusical - or all three - by alternating between two physically separate harmonicas.
Some chromatic harmonicas have an upper reedplate in one key and a lower one in a key a semitone higher. With an extremely thin bandsaw and amazing skill, you *might* be able to cut the comb in half so that you had two separate harmonicas.
However, other chromatics - perhaps the majority of models available nowadays - do not have a single key on a single reedplate. Instead each hole alternates between the notes of the two keys, making it impossible to physically separate the instrument into two harps in different keys.
But let's say you had one solo-tuned harmonica in C and another in C#/Db. You could get the C scale on one and the Db scale on the other in identical fashion. And you could play third position on each one in identical fashion - or any other position that used only the notes of either the C major scale or the Db major scale.
But here's something that works great on a single-body chromatic with a slide that would be both impractical and self-defeating musically with two separate harps:
Play the C Major scale using the slide-in Draw C (same note as B#) and the slide-in Blow F (same note as E#). Why do this? it reduces the scale to only two breaths: the draw breath used to play A-B-C-D and the blow breath used to play E-F-G. This allows smoother, more rapid motion on a slide harp. On two separate harps, you'd have the awkward and disruptive job of jumping between the two harps with nothing gained,.
Now, let's say you can play the D Dorian scale in third position on the C harp, and the Eb Dorian scale in third position on the Db harp. That seems to bolster the idea that the chromatic is two separate harps.
What if instead you want to play in D Major and Eb Major?
Well, D lives on the C plate and Eb lives on the Db plate, but the resemblance pretty much ends there. D requires Draw F# and Blow C# from the Db plate, while Eb requires Blow G and Draw D from the C plate, while F and C can be found on both plates, offering several alternatives. If you following the ascending scale pattern for each scale, each is quite different in breaths and slide moves required.
So even though the chromatic has a superficial resemblance in note layout to two solo-tuned diatonics, it
1) It has physical differences to them.
2) Integration into a single body offers desirable musical alternatives that are impossible in two physically separate harps.
3) (This is the most important): Once you go past scales other that C majora or Db major or their modes, the physical action patterns required to play them resembles nothing that occurs on either of the two separate instruments.
