Here's a remarkable video that I don't think has been posted here. It's Kim Wilson, Kirk Fletcher, and Barrelhouse Chuck: exemplary Chicago trio playing in extreme HD with beautifully mixed sound. Three songs in a row on an A harp. In case you were wondering how Kim gets such a great amped sound: he has a great un-amped sound. But you already knew that. Enjoy. And make sure you listen to the third song, an uptempo instrumental:
harponica What is the relevance and point of the overblow comment? Most players that wish they could OB but are not willing to do what it takes, need to find ways to justify why they don't.
Kim didn't leave anything out. He played the style he prefers rather awesomely in my opinion.
Seems like every time a great thread gets started someone taints it with irrelevant comments.
By the way........ Kim is awesome. and Kim is doing just fine without valved harps. Kim is doing just fine without 1/2 valved harps. Kim is doing just fine without alternate tuned harps. Kim is doing just fine without....you know what I mean.
Last Edited by on May 02, 2012 9:16 AM
Kim is doing just fine without a fedora. He's doing just fine without a pink suit and pink shoes. He's doing GREAT without a Mission amp, or a vintage Bassman. And notice: he's not using a "harp mic." He's just blowing at the studio mic.
He's doing just fine without a lot of things that some harp players are fond of. Heck, they're things that HE is fond of, or has been fond of, at various other moments in his career. But he can do without them; he can make great music without them, and that's the point.
I also notice that he's playing vintage Chicago blues but there's no bass and no drums. Amazing! I know some people--Billy Branch, for example--who insist that a bass is needed.
I think that overblows would ruin the effect. Kim is trying to conjure up a certain kind of vibe from days gone by, and any post-1970 musical influence--a sly quote from Stevie Wonder, for example, not to mention a 5 ob--would get in the way. I respect that. He knows exactly what kind of music he's trying to create, and he does a damned good job creating it. In his third song, there's a freshness and spontaneity in the way he strings phrases together that I like. He's bearing down on the harp to get some of his good sounds.
Last Edited by on May 02, 2012 9:28 AM
A lesson, or reminder - from the first two tunes especially, - is how beautiful and effective SIMPLE can be.
When you've taste, tone, and phrasing - you don't need a whole lot else to put accross music worth listening to.
Nothing wrong with more 'arrows in your quiver' - OB's , speed, etc. They just aren't as essential to making sweet music as the basics. ----------
Last Edited by on May 02, 2012 9:55 AM
I dug the video. There is a bass player...sorta. The keys really hold all three tunes together and he is playing the bass part.
I get that it is the blues allstars, and I did love the performance, but part of me always chuckles when the top tier performers of a genre do the equivalent of a tribute act.
The first two songs, which I really liked, are really just standard covers of standard blues tunes played in a standard fashion. My sole point being, and please don't read anymore into this, is that while I get the objective and totally dig what they are doing, it is just like any other pro-level musician playing in a rock coverband.
The last tune was a little more soulful, IMO, and less tribute and more alive.
Note that while Kim didn't need any fancy outboard gear, he was not playing a stock MB in A. Just sayin'. Of all the gear he has access to, this would suggest the most important piece beyond the player to him might be the quality of the harmonica. ;)
A final comment on the first two tunes - the guitar and piano parts really carry those tunes. If it was just guitar, or just piano, I wouldn't have liked it as much.
I know what you mean. James Cotton was here last week and a friend sent me audio. He played straight to the PA and it was great. I tend to like clean tones best, but realize that most clubs for 90% of players aren't equipt for harp.
I like the warmth of tubes, but a great condenser or studio mic can sound just as great. Most modern PA's sound cold and offer limited EQ help (mostly due to lack of understanding by the sound person) in comparison.
Even a cupped mic with a good eq like Cotton will sound really great in an electric blues band. Double true if you color phrases with TB'ing or chording. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
While I like a full band too, I must say that there is nothing I'd like better than to be sitting in a small room (with a few pints on the table) a few feet away from some players of this calibre, just kicking back and wallowing in the sound (and going to school). ----------
kim is a remarkable player own his own and with a full band. I love his style. i like the way he just comps behind the piano in the last tune
Last Edited by on May 02, 2012 11:20 AM
remarkable is a good word. his phrasing appears simple but has rhythmic complexity essential to playing great blues on any instrument.
most african american music, even the flute; rassan roland kirk is a great example- is played rhythmically with a percussive attack.
all of the best blues harmonica players have extremely good rhythm. not rhythm chops separated by melody chops-but a blending of the two where they appear indistinguishable.
---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
Last Edited by on May 02, 2012 6:19 PM
MP, I love that comment: "his phrasing appears simple but has rhythmic complexity". That to me is the most important thing to strive for. Brilliant observation!
Great point, MP. One of the hardest things as a harp player--and as any musician--is to maintain intensity WITH relaxation. He's got that in spades. That's a sign of wisdom, of long years doing what he does, and of continued emotional investment in what he's doing. That's what struck me: he's definitely not coasting on his laurels, but neither is he pushing too hard and unbalancing himself. He's just right in the pocket.
HarpNinja knows that I have often made the "tribute act" point, or a variant of it, and irritably, and sometimes even about Mr. Wilson. But really: if there weren't somebody holding down the "this is how it's done" chair," the futurists among us would suddenly get a pang of future shock. When I listen to Wilson, I hear a series, a whole assemblage, of aesthetic choices, and they're not precisely the choices that I would make--even though, from one perspective, they're absolutely perfect choices. I'm capable of hearing the perfection of a style in what he does, and--especially on the third song--the mark of the individual player--while also hearing what he's doing as an older style, not a contemporary style. He's consolidating what WAS a contemporary style in 1950s Chicago as a kind of folk music for our time. And that's OK. We need people who do that.
Now I would personally find it more thrilling if we had exactly the same up close and personal video and he was playing his version of, say, "Chitlins Con Carne" or "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy," or "Strong Persuader"--representative blues/r&b from the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980's--and I were forced to say "Holy crap!" But that's not what he does, and that's OK. Performers do what they do. He's clearly NOT just going through the motions. He sounds great. And MP is right: there's a rhythmic life in what he's doing, totally integrated into his melodic concept, that has lessons to teach any student of the instrument. The key thing here is that he's doing what is appropriate for the moment. His energy is high, but there are no rough edges. He's perfection of the form. It would be churlish, really, to find anything wrong with that.
Sorry, don't know why, but Kim is absolutely boring for me. And I don't hear anything special about his tone. Michalek had an incredible tone, Gruenling have incredible tone, Steve Baker, not Wilson. For my taste he have weak control over overtones, his tone is ok, but in a very narrow range of tones. I respect Kim for his role in harmonica development (he affected bunch of young players), but I can't enjoy that, absolutely out of my range of emotion.
Don't mind I dislike blues. I really like Dennis Gruenling and Steve Baker. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on May 02, 2012 10:00 PM
I liked the video, nice music. Music is feelings and my feeling is that Kim Wilson's music doesn't give me anything. When I saw him and Jimmie Vaughan in the 80s I thought they were great. But what he is doing nowadays is far from giving me gooes bumps. Kim Wilson is an icon, I guess that is because of long duty, everybody knows his name. I bought this 5 CD box with Little Walter and he is palying with an edge. To me this is perfect music. I really miss him. If he hade been still alive and well then he would have forced all these white soft purist blues artists in another direction.
I am a huge Kim fan...he's in my top 5, but the first two songs felt less alive then the last one. HOWEVER, I realize that this situation is very different than performing live in front of an audience.
I also understand why it would be this way given the context. I never get tired of the harp on his albums like Smokin' Joint. It is pretty much straight ahead blues, which if you don't like won't do much for you, but it is extremely well done.
If I were doing that gig, I am sure it wouldn't be my best performance, nor would I want it to be what people were going to judge me on.
I do appreciate the vibe and the fact that everyone was playing live together and having fun...safe fun. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
One of Kim's secrets is his "intention" while playing. He described it as having a muscle car and driving around town at 35 mph, revving the engine to show the potential of its power while only punching it once in a while. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 7:16 AM
I went along to the concert hall tonight to hear the symphony orchestra do their mozart tribute act. Those guys, they're doing a different tribute every month it seems. It's been decades now. I dunno how long people are gonna put up with it. ----------
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 7:47 AM
@SuperBee: Thanks so much for your ironies! As you know, everybody here on the forum gets them and loves them. Irony is the pop attitude of our time!! It's salutary, sanitary, and de rigeur. A wonderful antidote, too, to sobriety, pedantry, and Jerry Springer-esque display of finger-wagging, fist-shaking atavistic emotion. Irony is not bluesy! But irony is so damn bluesy.
By the way, do you think I'm seconding you or mocking you in the paragraph above?
You're right!
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 7:49 AM
The first time I heard Rick Estrin play was on a cassette tape in the early nineties and thinking it was okay, I wasn't "stunned"...THEN got to see him LIVE and I immediately became a believer in him as one of the best in the world ...
If you have ever seen Kim "live" you would know he is in (chill mode) in that vid...
Of course it is me being touchy. I see the tribute act phrase and it gets me going. I realise the mention in this thread is merely en passant so I should shut up about it. And will. I don't have anything meaningful to say about kw that isn't said better above.
I have sat less than ten feet from Kim and heard him play. It is a very humbling experience. Sat that close you are completely and utterly aware that you are hearing one of the greats of the instrument ply his trade. To say he is jaw droppingly good would be a huge understatement. His technique is exemplary. His mastery of the bends on hole three is extraordinary. Many people try and some even believe they can do what Kim does with those bends. The fact of the matter though it that very, very few can even come close to it.
I used the word meaning that they delivered cover versions of well-known blues tunes done in a very safe and traditional manner. I knew that anyone into traditional blues harp would love these tunes, even though they are pretty safe.
That in and of itself isn't anything bad, IMO. In fact, if you reread what I said, I enjoyed the performances, have it favorited in Youtube, and have watched it a few times now.
Here is a local band that is a tribute act:
Honestly, I don't see much difference between this and the Kim Wilson vid. I think I am probably in the minority. This too me, is just as artistic, thoughtful, and soulful as any other act covering other artists in the same vein as the original.
In all actuality, and the original studio vid isn't a good example as they aren't performing a live show, I think most blues bands have less to offer than a tribute band like this in the way of music.
***Edit: I just think a lot of people here who enjoy the blues-tribute vibe would dismiss the same approach in other genres as being inferior, contrived, and soulless. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 10:50 AM
@SuperBee: I thought your original post was witty. At least I think it was! Irony doesn't always come through quite the way the author expects. Often people don't get it and think the person is being serious. Sometimes the reverse happens. I was offering my own surrealist commentary on that tricky process.
"There's a big difference between working within a tradition and slavishly copying a particular star performer."
They are working totally within a tradition - arena rock. They are also performing covers of popular songs within that tradition at a high level. The only difference as I see it is the costume. And honestly, the majority of blues bands have one or more member who adhere to a strict dress code related to the genre.
I've met guys from the group, and if you don't think they take their music and instruments seriously, you are dead wrong.
Seriously, there isn't much of a difference at all. I'll even concede to the costume.
***EDIT: How is a costume any worse than copying licks, gear, solos, and body gestures? ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 12:28 PM
My choice to make these comments in a KW thread come from his general disdain for rock harmonica. I find this totally hypocritical, and a red flag in regards to his sincerety, when he has blown harp in the "world's greatest rock'n'roll band" for decades.
I love his blues stuff, and I love his T-Birds stuff...but I get where the music and business reside. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
"I went along to the concert hall tonight to hear the symphony orchestra do their mozart tribute act. Those guys, they're doing a different tribute every month it seems. It's been decades now. I dunno how long people are gonna put up with it."
Hah! good one!!! now that was funny! ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 12:32 PM
I think it needs to be reminded that Kim Wilson has not spent his entire career being a stone-cold traditionalist...The Fabulous Thunderbirds skirted many different genres in their hayday...I see Wilson more as like a Nick Lowe/Dave Edmunds or Allman Bros-like figure in American Music...a guy who clearly has the chops, the respect and the knowledge to play whatever he wants. Sometimes it goes down like a cool beer in a tavern on a hot day, other times it's a little more dangerous and off the wall, but always withing the boundries of the music he loves. He obviously likes doing the retro thing here; I find that different than a cover/tribute band playing note-for-note versions of someone else's "genius", with all due respect to HarpNinja,who makes some good points but is generalizing a bit too much. What of Warren Haynes, a guy whose bread and butter these days is spending more than half his shows playing classic rock covers from the 60s and 70s...is he a tribute band or a great, original musician? Also, is John Coltrane riffing on "My Favorite Things" just a slavish retelling of show tune tradition?
I almost used Warren Haynes as an example! Too funny. He is a great guitar player...but his bread and butter is hitting the notes you expect/want to hear as a guitar fan. I would say the same of Kim.
Both tend to impress me as vocalists and performers enough that being a slightly predictable player is cool. Kim's non-blues harp playing sounds just like his blues playing. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Funny that Kudzu should mention Burrels' Chitlin' Con Carne and Adderly/Zawinuls Mercy, Mercy, Mercy, as i do those two songs every gig. i also do Eddie Taylors? Bad Boy and LW tunes.
i like to keep things interesting for the band and the audience to the point of schizophrenia. of course i love the tunes too.
Wilson doesn't need to do this. But on the other hand, he has recorded Perez Prados' Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White. if that is not an interesting departure from '50s Chicago Blues i don't know what is.
the responses in this thread remind me of the other Kudzu thread- can't remember the title. was it, 'if you like blues you'll love this"?
good thread!
---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
ah the next day! sometimes i just try to tie a bunch of stuff together that would take a lot of words to deal with in a serious erudite fashion. but last night i wrote some stuff and when i reviewed it i wasnt sure even i understood what id written, so i just left the first concept and got rid of the rest. i was trying to get across a few ideas and be lighthearted at the same time:
.)the notion of the symphony playing popular classics being a kind of tribute act, and how people continue to enjoy it, presumably just because music can be beautiful and stirring and melancholic and timeless and just enjoyable
.)the idea that a classical violinist...in particular Nigel Kennedy...can build a career out of interpreting Vivaldi. i dont know if people know about Kennedy. he is perhaps somewhat of a paradox just on his own...a kind of precocious talent, a kind of child prodigy, perhaps an enfant terrible...who seemed to break the rules at the same time as embracing tradition. just thinking about Kennedy can do my head in...i first saw him when he was 16...a very skilled violinist, with a pierced ear and a skinhead, or was it a mohawk? New Wave classical. he could be a symbol of this synthesis of old and new...except, as it turned out he wasnt especially innovative at all in terms of the music he played, just in the way he presented himself. last time i saw him live, he closed the show by kicking a football from the stage into the audience, and as he prepared to do so he told a story of how this had almost gone wrong one time, but an injury to an elderly patron was prevented when the ball was plucked by a professional goalkeeper who was in the right place at the right time. incidentally, i fell asleep during the concert. i can take only so much baroque. but i love it up to that point. for me, kennedy's warmup piece (bach) was the high point of his performance. that same night, from the stage kennedy spoke about
.)the strange fact we were sitting quietly, intently listening to music which in its day was the equivalent of elevator music. pieces which were commissioned with the intent they would be played as background music. like dinner music. not unlike a lot of music today, except that these days instead of having a quartet or a chamber orchestra or an organist, we have good quality recordings which perform the function well and extremely cheaply. but that is not to say a recording must be used, or even that its the best solution. in my view, i would often prefer a live performance. but the repertoire does not have to be innovative; it just has to be appropriate. i dont think there is anything wrong with that.
.)kim wilson is highly skilled and i enjoyed and appreciated his playing, in so far as my experience and education and understanding allowed me to. .)contrast this with what the band i play with are doing. they are definitely modern, but not very serious, though they demand attention. and we are not anywhere near the skill level of all the players i have mentioned so far. but this is modern music, its function is to entertain. i love the blues, i love the big fat slightly distorted harp sound, i love a soulful vocal, and i adore great picked guitar...i think i just play harp because the guitar makes me want to do something to interact with it...i think thats how it started for me...i try to play the sounds i love, but the bands i play with dont give a hoot about the blues or the blues tradition...they are about having a laugh, putting on a show, stirring the pot, as do i, and what i play has to fit in with that. but i love the blues, thats what i listen to, thats how i try to develop my skills because i love that sound...and in terms of living players, Kim exemplifies that sound to me in large part..in his multifacets. but theres no rule you have to do just one thing. its allowed be fun and free
.)my band has just released a CD which includes a cover of a song done by another current band (though i wrote it so i am not sure if 'cover' is the right word), so for all our rule breaking/ignoring modern relevance, we are still able to copy and take the p1ss...and oddly enough the guys we are simultaneously honouring, and mocking(!) are essentially all about taking the p1ss themselves, out of themselves and the groundbreaking modern movements of the last 3 decades
see, thats quite a lot to explain. and not much of it is about Kim Wilson. anyway, i was worried i would come across more like an ar$e than a smartar$e. so many coins and flipsides and double edged swords
.)i'm not totally sure how this bit fits in the thread, but it just seems relevant to me in any discussion about music: i like what JimiLee said when Dave barrett asked him what playing harmonica means to him. essentially he said it was a source of joy to him.
Thanks ----------
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 9:36 PM
This video shows just how good Kim Wilson is. Superb phrasing, great tone, inventive ideas, stellar third position playing and all within the tradition. Ain't nothing fancy sounding here to an untrained ear, but damn that shit ain't easy to play by any stretch of the imagination. If you think it is, then try as an exercise to play EXACTLY what Kim is playing in this video. I bet you can't do it!
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 10:14 PM
"If you think it is, then try as an exercise to play EXACTLY what Kim is playing in this video. I bet you can't do it!"
Well, that is pretty much true of anything, especially if you've only heard it a couple of times.
However, I think that is a much cooler clip of Kim's playing. He's playing a straight ahead traditional blues in a very traditional sounding way - but in a totally contemporary fashion. I didn't watch the vid...I just listened. I swore he was playing a chromatic.
His third position playing here is fantastic, and even casual blues fans on the board should dig it.
FWIW, being modern isn't really about not playing blues over blues changes. It is about telling your story and not rehashing someone else's from 50-90 years ago.
If you read the liner notes to Kim's Lookin For Trouble, he actually does a great job articulating what it means to carry the torch and NOT be a tribute act. Going back to the OP, he lives that in song three moreso than one and two.
I still insist though, that a tribute/cover act is a tribute/cover act regardless of genre. You can put your own spin on things and make it fresh, but that isn't going on in the OP. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
"Well, that is pretty much true of anything, especially if you've only heard it a couple of times."
Mike - The point I'm making though is that to phrase like that is not easy at all, regardless of ones ability. The use of space, the playing around with the beat, the way the phrases are resolved, the accents within the phrases, the attack and dynamics within the phrases, etc, etc, are all things that are the hallmark of a master. These are hard fought for and do not come easily. Many, many players fool themselves into thinking they can play with those kind of sensibilities in their own playing. The reality of course is that most simply cannot. Kim excels at making it sound very simple (yet another hallmark of a master) which obviously it's not.
"FWIW, being modern isn't really about not playing blues over blues changes. It is about telling your story and not rehashing someone else's from 50-90 years ago."
Is that why I hear many so called "modern players" quoting Jason Ricci, Adam Gussow or some old horn player? It that telling their own story? Somehow I don't think so. Whilst I understand the sentiment behind your statement, the reality is that many "modern" players simply quote the riffs and runs of their favourite players in the same way the "modern" traditionalists quote Big Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson or Little Walter. In a lot of cases they copy entire solos, or at very least large parts of them. Both camps are guilty of this. It's not the exclusive domain of the traditionalists by any stretch of the imagination. The traditionalists simply admit to doing it unashamedly.
"I still insist though, that a tribute/cover act is a tribute/cover act regardless of genre. You can put your own spin on things and make it fresh, but that isn't going on in the OP."
I agree. Maybe demonstrating a little of the instruments history was Kim's intention though. Who knows?
Last Edited by on May 04, 2012 9:55 AM
"Whilst I understand the sentiment behind your statement, the reality is that many "modern" players simply quote the riffs and runs of their favourite players in the same way the "modern" traditionalists quote Big Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson or Little Walter. In a lot of cases they copy entire solos, or at very least large parts of them. Both camps are guilty of this. It's not the exclusive domain of the traditionalists by any stretch of the imagination. The traditionalists simply admit to doing it unashamedly."
Can you point to some examples of high profile harmonica players doing this?
I immediately thought of a few under 20 people (which is different than guys doing that for decades), but then couldn't think on any popular harmonica players fitting this mold. I don't mean LW famous, but guys who gig a lot...not necessarily full time, but you know what I mean.
IMO, there is a difference between quoting and copying. There is also a difference between honoring the old and putting your own spin on it (see your previous KW post).
Finally, even if I am way off on some of this, the number of Gussow and Ricci clones make up less than 10% of harmonica players. Locally, I can find a "traditionalist" every weekend to listen to. I can't find but one person doing anything like the other guys (Noah Hoehn). ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
"Can you point to some examples of high profile harmonica players doing this?"
Not really as there are only a handful of "modern" players who are high profile. All of whom do indeed have original voices. In the same way that Piazza, Estrin, Musselwhite and Wilson have original voices. Even though they may choose to play a direct cover from time to time. It's the people coming up that are imitating the "modern" players. As time progresses though these "tribute" acts will undoubtedly become more noticeable I would think. Of course some will develop their own voice, but many will retain the "tribute" status. Such is the nature of the beast.
"IMO, there is a difference between quoting and copying. There is also a difference between honoring the old and putting your own spin on it (see your previous KW post)."
I agree. There is a big difference. It's a shame more people don't simply quote occasionally rather than copy.
"Finally, even if I am way off on some of this, the number of Gussow and Ricci clones make up less than 10% of harmonica players. Locally, I can find a "traditionalist" every weekend to listen to. I can't find but one person doing anything like the other guys (Noah Hoehn)."
Well this is due in part to the fact that "modern blues harmonica" is in the minority amongst blues harmonica music. This will as mentioned above though undoubtedly change with time. For example just take a look at YouTube and you can see the number of players messing with looping pedals or the number of players trying the one man band thing. This stems from people like Son of Dave. People copy people. That's how life works. A talented few will manage to rise above the pale and create new and interesting things. The rest however just become mere clones of whom so ever they are inspired by.
Last Edited by on May 04, 2012 1:47 PM
I'd say there is a difference between a cover and a tribute. And there is a difference between a tribute and a tribute act. Genre doesn't come into it. Maybe it's a spectrum, but it's not the same, just as opera is not the same as cinema or you are not me. There are similarities but also differences. Coffee is not tea but they are both hot stimulating drinks. And covers are also not all equal. MacArthur park by Richard Harris is the original. Donna summer's cover is hardly a tribute, it's a completely different interpretation. I'm not even sure what defines a cover in circumstances where someone perforrms their own song after someone else has already recorded it. Or where an act has been playing a song live and someone else records it first. Telling your own story? Again, I think that sounds good but the reality is often somewhat different. Anything you do tells your story in a sense . Even if you are rehashing a story of someone else. I think it's probably just entertainment and the rest is words. ----------
Last Edited by on May 03, 2012 7:47 AM
