arzajac
779 posts
Apr 18, 2012
7:29 PM
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I borrowed a Jimmy Gordon Custom GM. It is supposedly in the exact condition it was when it was first bought.
It is the loudest harp I have ever played. It is tuned to A 445. It bends like butter and overbends smoothly.
It is gapped very tightly for my taste. I can play a clean blow on 4 5 and 6 with regular breath, but it chokes when more force is used. I asked if this was done as a preference or if this was the default gapping and the answer was that it was default.
So my question: Are custom overblow harps typically tightly gapped? Is there less leeway, less of a margin for gapping than a regular (non-overblow) custom harp?
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Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2012 7:30 PM
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SergZZZ
34 posts
Apr 18, 2012
9:51 PM
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No, overblow harmonica should not put any limitations on the player.
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www.ermonica.com
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Jehosaphat
227 posts
Apr 18, 2012
10:42 PM
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Could be wrong but i have always been lead to believe that O/B harps have really tight gaps to facilitate the choking of the blow reed?
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SergZZZ
35 posts
Apr 18, 2012
11:22 PM
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The threshold of disruption of oscillations of the reed should not be too low. This condition must be met.
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www.ermonica.com
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jim
1241 posts
Apr 19, 2012
5:59 AM
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Yes. Get accustomed to it and play lightly.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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HarpNinja
2347 posts
Apr 19, 2012
6:13 AM
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Yes and no. While I agree that playing with excessive breath force can create a problem, anyone with an appropriate attack should be fine.
On my harps, and I don't intend for this to be a commercial, I don't need to gap so tight that players have to worry about choking overbends. This is trickier to do with overdraws than with overblows, but I got it down. I play with a lot of force on the high end, so that helped trouble shoot.
I don't play with a super light attack and I don't choke reeds on my harps. I also articulate most single notes. I built a bunch of harps for hvyj and I don't think choking has ever been an issue. His gaps aren't really much different than a full overbend set up. In fact, most overbend really well even though he doesn't play them.
The Spiers and Buddha harps I have don't choke. The Sleighs I have do if I get to aggressive. I remember playing some of Chris's Filiskos...especially a LF...and feeling that the reed were really easy to choke. He played with much less force that I do, though.
IMO, a reed shouldn't choke unless you are using excessive breath force even if it is an OB harp. I set mine up with resonance and breath pressure in mind in the hopes of creating a balanced instrument that easily pops OBs with good technique.
Some people need ridiculously tight gaps to get OBs to pop because of technique. I doubt people who play with wreckless abandon and overbend have gaps that tight.
During the summer, when my work schedule is way easier, I am willing to offer a Skype lesson for anyone who buys a harp from me. I'd also like to offer a series of lessons where I actually share video of me working on your harp specifically. I can only do this right now between June and August, but am hopeful to do it again in the winter months. However, I wouldn't mind working with one guinea pig to see if this process will work out well.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2012 6:18 AM
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HarpNinja
2348 posts
Apr 19, 2012
6:25 AM
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I found a before/after pic of a stock GM draw plate on my phone. I am uploading to Flickr right now. That is the best I can do today, but you can see that while the gaps on say, 4-6, are tighter, they are still probably wider than the width of the reed tip.
All I did was basic profiling - arcing and gapping. Embossing and such should make it even better.
I think where some people get caught up is in the balance between the blow and draw reed. It is easy to get them to pop if everything is really tight, but in reality, they can work just as well when approached differently.
This isn't a knock on Gordon. In fact, I am sure his gaps are great. I am just suggesting that you don't HAVE to have super tight gaps for overbends if you don't want to.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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logansays
83 posts
Apr 19, 2012
6:29 AM
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when I firs worked on my harps ..i cud get them to OB by gapping tight..they did OB but the overall playability suffered...been two years and now I dont have this problem anymore..My oB technique has improved ofcourse but the way I gap and emboss has changed! I still can play clean OB at the same time play hard and not choke the reed!
I would like to also know ...shouldnt the customizers technique ( to play OB/OD) be absolutely perfect to set up a harp to play perfect OB's?/
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hvyj
2338 posts
Apr 19, 2012
6:51 AM
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I'm not an OB player, but the set of custom GMs I got from HarpNinja don't choke, stick or jam at all and i play with a relatively aggressive attack. These harps are not sticky or temperamental at all. They have very smooth, consistent, even and reliable reponse.
I also have some harps from Joe Spiers and those don't choke, stick or jam either. Also with very smooth, consistent, even and reliable response, and exceptional stability and evenness of tone on the high end.
Both the Spiers harps and the Quicksilver harps from HarpNinja are very precise on all available bends and super responsive no matter whether i'm playing loud, soft, hard or easy. I don't OB but Mike has told me his harps are capable of doing that if i wanted to, but i don't. Joe told me the 6 OB is solid on the harps he built for me, and the 6 hole is not sticky or temperamental at all.
I play these harps A LOT. i gig at least twice a week most weeks and I hit jams a couple of times a week on nights I'm not gigging if i have time, and i also try to practice at least a little bit every day. What's remarkable about both the Spiers and the Quicksilver harps is that (unlike other customs i've played) so long as I don't get saliva in the reeds, they have absolutely no greater tendency to freeze or jam than a decent OOB harp, even though the tolerances are tighter. These are VERY RELIABLE harps under performance conditions.
Now, all that having been said, I'm NOT an OB player, did not specify an OB set up, and have no personal experience actually trying to OB on these harps. Also, I'm very much a "throat" player, which may have an effect how harps respond when I play hard.
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2012 7:29 AM
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tookatooka
2918 posts
Apr 19, 2012
7:47 AM
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I understand arcing, gapping and embossing but could someone explain profiling please?
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HarpNinja
2349 posts
Apr 19, 2012
8:19 AM
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Its a general term for all the reedwork. Different people do different things to profile. For some, it means just arcing and gapping. For others it might mean also chamfering, polishing, adding wax, etc.
I take a similar approach to Dick Sjoeberg who learned from Gunter Bayer, who taught Joe Filisko.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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harpdude61
1363 posts
Apr 19, 2012
9:45 AM
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Good discussion. I think a lot of players that are trying to learn OBs gap too tightly with hopes of a good overblow. I include myself.
IMHO overblows are more about technique and less about gapping.
I know a couple of people that have custom harps set to OB and still can't get it.
I agree with what has been said. The corrrect amount of force and no choking should occur on a harp set for OBs.
Now that I am better than I was at OBing, I've actually been able to open some gaps back a little.
I have a set of stock GMs that I only gapped and a partial set of customs. The big difference I notice is bending and/or sustaining the OBs is better with the customs, but all overblow and overdraw nicely.
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arzajac
781 posts
Apr 19, 2012
10:49 AM
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Thanks everyone.
I especially appreciate the input from people who have compared different custom harps. I would like one clarification, though.
I know that non-overblow Customs are gapped wider for harder playing. And most of these harps can still overblow. That confuses the issue since people compare custom harps set up for regular playing with custom harps set up for overblows.
But can an "overblow" custom harp be loosely gapped to not choke at higher breath force and still hit the overblows properly with proper tone and control? Or is it a fact of life that a custom overblow harp will be tight?
I'm sorry to nitpick, but this is my main curiosity.
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ridge
327 posts
Apr 19, 2012
11:41 AM
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The top part of the image is a dent I put in my reeds (usually my 4,5,6 blow reeds) that seems to allow me to keep those blow reed gaps reasonably high and get better overblow response. Of course, this image is wildly exaggerated. I don't know if you could get good enough pictures to get the point across.
This is something I've been playing around with in conjunction with getting closer tolerances on the rivet end. This seems to give the blow reed a better starting position for choking when my mouth shape changes to actuate an overblow. This was a welcome change from gapping my blow reeds so tightly that normal playing would cause the reed to become choked. I've hypothesized that this is akin to adding wax to the rivet end because it creates a better seal because the rivet end of the reed is closer to the plate and that somehow aerodynamically this allows the reed to choke easier under specific conditions.
Of course, you're all free to tell me why this is complete nonsense even though there's no empirical evidence to disprove me.
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2012 11:49 AM
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logansays
84 posts
Apr 19, 2012
12:06 PM
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@arzajac absolutely no..the harp doesnt have to be gapped tight.to get perfect OB's which can be bent up...
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harpdude61
1364 posts
Apr 19, 2012
12:07 PM
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ridge's idea seems worth a try on some older harps.
I opened a couple of my Buddha harps and what he did was left the gaps pretty much closed but made a
notch in the center of the free end of the reed.
Looking from the top down it looks like a very small 1/2 circle at the end of the reed. Tight gap but still a flow hole.
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MP
2171 posts
Apr 19, 2012
1:02 PM
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@ ridge
"Of course, you're all free to tell me why this is complete nonsense even though there's no empirical evidence to disprove me."
i don't think it's nonsense at all. reeds that ride lower at the fixed end tend to perform better as a very general rule- there are other considerations but
i think you're right.
one thing to avoid when lowering the reed is to watch out you don't destroy it. press down an iota too far,too fast, or too hard,and the reed is complete toast.
EDIT: you've been warned :o)
@arzajac
a friend brought over his new Jimmy Gordon SP/20 with the default set-up. he is a TB player w/ a very light attack but manages a wonderful tone.
this SP was very loud and very closely gapped. nice harp!
oddly, his complaint was not the 4,5,6, choking. it was #3 blow choking. i could play it, but we're all different. easy adjustment.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2012 1:35 PM
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ridge
328 posts
Apr 19, 2012
2:14 PM
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@MP, thanks for your input. I know you work on many more harps than I do so I respect your opinion on the matter.
I'll note that making this indent to the fixed end of the reed doesn't seem to affect the tuning.
I should also mention that when I make this indent and get the reed to hold that particular shape, I will then gap the reed to where it plays best for my taste.
I've really only done this with good success on Marine Bands, SP20s and GMs. I have two Suzukis, but they are different animals I find when trying to adjust them.
Finally, I will state that this idea wasn't my own. It was conveyed to me years ago and I've only started putting it to use. I hope I'm not encroaching on anybodies livelihood by presenting this bit of information which, until this point, I've really considered nothing more than harmonica mechanic mysticism.
Respectfully,
Dan R.
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MP
2173 posts
Apr 19, 2012
3:03 PM
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hi Dan!
from the examples i've seen of newer Hohner hand made harmonicas (GMS SP/20s MBDs and 1896s) i noticed they are considerably lower at the fixed end than older models.
i saw it first on my 2009 Crossover. (my first new harp in years). it is still my newest harp.
i doubt you are encroaching on anybodies livelihood because, as i'm sure you know, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. i am a case in point.
i destroyed quite a few reeds playing around w/ different techniques, even with the aid of great visuals, magnifying glasses, reverse engineering w/ a Filisko right next to me and e-mail support.
personally, i start my reed adjustment at the rear as per chromaticblues(kevin bakers) advice.
i use a gentle pressing down motion with a brass tool. easy does it, a little at a time. careful not to pop a wheely or send the reed pearl diving out the other side. or, worse yet, crimping the metal into fatigue by getting too close to the pad.
i watched a customizing vid the other day. can't remember who did it. the guy had a gem of wisdom in one sentence though. it was this: "there is only a finite number of times a reed can be manipulated".
neat,huh?! :0)
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
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walterharp
863 posts
Apr 19, 2012
6:44 PM
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i think the harps set up for overblows and overdraws are a bit easier to choke than most out of the box harps. based on 3 buddhas,1 speirs stage 3, 2 stage 2s and one of mike's 3's and a buttload of ootb harps of all makes plus my less than perfect customizing attempts
they are also easier to do traditional bends on
another way to look at this is you should be able to make any reed choke if you work at it (blow harder than you should), if air leakage is minimized, as it is in a custom, reeds should play louder with less total breath force as well as choke easier. so it is a function of gapping, embossing, plate and comb flatness etc..
if you need to tune to A=445 you must be a pretty hard blower or like a pretty sharp sound
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2012 7:19 PM
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