atty1chgo
306 posts
Apr 16, 2012
5:45 PM
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I thought that I would start this thread because there seem to be two definite camps on the subject. I happen to prefer vintage (over 25 years old) microphones to the newer models, regardless of make and model.
Do people shy away from vintage mics because of (1) cost (2) availability (3) unfamiliarity (4) quality ? Or is it like anything else, where you see someone using something and buy that?
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Jehosaphat
216 posts
Apr 16, 2012
9:55 PM
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I bought a Bullet C/M years ago because
a)It looked cool
b)I thought i had to have one to be able to play blues
c) my tone would automatically be great
Well a) still applies but as for the other reasons well lets say i was wrong.
I think that for a certain kind of blues the old C/M C/R elements still really have a place.The players into that real chicgo sound like Kim Wilson,Dennis Grueling and even say our own Frank
make the most of what those elements can deliver to get that 'Brown tone'
But if you want to play the blues in a more modern style(for lack of a better term) then there are a lot of better mikes to use and some of them are as cheap as chips.An Akai DM13 comes to mind here.
So imo
1)COST. Can be a factor,some of those beautiful restored old mikes are Expensive.
2)AVailibility:Well you can't just walk into a store and buy one.
3)UNfamiliarity: If you are just starting out on Harp and need a mike,the salesman will not mention any but what he has in stock.(I once bought a new mike 'cos the guy said "Brendan Power just bought one")Brendan lived in the same town as me at the time.
4)Quality:Don't think that is an issue really.Most people decide quality on price.
I like my old C/M but for various reasons it gets pulled out much less often than it used to.
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dougharps
185 posts
Apr 16, 2012
10:03 PM
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I like some modern mics, and some vintage mics. I seem to prefer vintage mics for harp with my tube amps, modern for vocals, and some modern, some vintage, when I am using the same mic for singing and playing.
I bought some High Z and Low Z EV 630 mics years ago and use them from time to time. They are dynamic mics, but work pretty well with harp.
I also bought a High Z Shure 585AV Unisphere with volume control, and a Low Z SM585 Unisphere with switch (same element). The High Z 585AV with volume control is my favorite mic for harp, and on occasion, vocals.
I have a brown Astatic Biscuit with chrome grill I bought at a flea market and then replaced the dead crystal with a ceramic element and Amphenol 1 connector. I like it a lot depending on the particular tube amp. It can be a bit trebley. I use one of Greg's very high z volume controls. I have a Turner 22x and need to take out the crystal element that sounds bad when you cup it, and put in my spare ceramic element. It is cool looking, heavy, and tricky to cup due to the fin.
I have a Mexican 520D Green Bullet that I seldom use and may sell. A 520D, NOT a 520DX... I traded the 520DX I had for a new transformer in an amp.
I bought the vintage mics before the prices went up. I bought cheap on Ebay, at a flea market, and at a pawn shop. The 2 replacement ceramic elements I bought used to be cheap at Angela Instruments.
I have one of Greg's Ultimate 57 High Z low output mics with bulletizer. I find that more often I choose to use the 585AV, the Biscuit, or the EV 630s with tube amps. The most expensive mic I have is that Ultimate 57 with bulletizer. I am really not using it that often. It is a fine mic, and VERY cool, but with my tube amps I seem to prefer the vintage mics. I wish I had bought the Low Z version of the Ultimate 57, or maybe a low z Ultimate 58 to use with harp and vocals, instead of the high z.
For harp to a PA I sometimes prefer vintage low z mics, and sometimes modern mics like the Fireball or a low z 57. If I am using the mic for a lot of vocals, I usually prefer modern mics for the vocals, such as my Sennheiser e835. I use one of Greg's low z volume controls with this mic, so I can play harp through the e835 if needed, but it is a little bright for harp.
I have played through one of Greg's wooden bullets to a Fender Super Reverb and also to a Blues Junior, and it was awesome.
So are Greg's wooden bullets new mics or old mics???
I think a lot of players getting into amplified harp these days find the prices of well known vintage harp mics to be too expensive for their beginner budgets, and the unknown less popular/less expensive vintage mics to be too much of a gamble.
It really comes down to what purpose you have for the mic, and with tube amps it seems to really vary based on the mic/amp match. I was fortunate in gradually having spent gig money on cheap mics years ago.
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Doug S.
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didjcripey
227 posts
Apr 16, 2012
10:14 PM
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to my ears with my amp and my technique, nothing sounds like a CM. I have a collection of well over a dozen vintage and new mics of different makes and types. Some are cleaner, some dirtier, some feedback less and some more, but they are all shrill and thin or too distorted in comparison.
I also happen to like old stuff, and things that were built to last; these old shells and elements will survive the next ice age.
For someone who can tool around a bit with stuff himself, its also much cheaper for me to buy good vintage stuff on ebay than it is to buy new from music stores. A modern green bullet (520DX) retails for over three hundred bucks here, and a hohner bluesblaster the same. By comparison, I can get a JT30 or 520 shell in excellent condition for about 100 bucks inc. shipping, a shure CM for 40 and a gasket for twenty; do the math! (my best score was a rare Aussie dynamax bullet shell, perfect size and great style for 25 bucks, plus element for 40; irreplaceable!).
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Lucky Lester
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rbeetsme
736 posts
Apr 17, 2012
5:01 AM
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I haven't heard a new mic yet that wasn't too muddy, too clean or low output. There is a reason players pay the bucks for vintage CM, CR and crystal elements.
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jbone
865 posts
Apr 17, 2012
5:13 AM
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i'm in the vintage camp mostly. my main gigging amp is a silvertone tube amp and a cm sounds great, a crystal ala jt30 also sounds wonderful, and a dynamic with a hi-z mod is great as well. lately i've been asked to sing through the cm as well as blow harp because it does give off a very delta/chicago tone that we're going for in the current configuration of open tuned guitar, very basic drums, and harp.
using a newer mic and amp is unfamiliar to me. i do recall having a pig 7-100 that just never would tame down unless i had the volume barely cracked open. didn't matter if i used a hot bullet or a sm57 or 58, it would indeed squeal like a pig in live situations.
i've had my eye on a street cube for a while but Jolene and i would need 2, and where we busk it's no amps. it would seem a waste to get geared up with them just to go to Helena and play on the street once a year.
i am not afraid to play "dry" into a vocal mic/p.a. it's good character building to HAVE TO make a harp sound good in a p.a. with no props like tubes and hot mics. and it can definitely work for a lot of applications.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
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Greg Heumann
1577 posts
Apr 17, 2012
8:35 AM
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I say - whatever floats your boat. Everyone should own at least one of each!
:)
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/Greg
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HawkeyeKane
890 posts
Apr 17, 2012
9:30 AM
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I don't necessarily shy away from vintage mics. I own two semi-vintage ones, an Akai DM13 and an Ampex Model 1101. Both of which are 60's/70's era dynamics. My main mic for the longest time was my JT30RH reissue which had a cheap modern Japanese crystal. I now have a vintage Turner ceramic for it which I'll install when I get around to refinishing the shell and making a gasket for it.
I do love vintage stuff, both for the sound quality and the aesthetics. The age-old colloquialism of "they don't make 'em like they used to" definitely rings true on this. If I had my way, I'd go vintage on everything I own, but cost is an unfortunate factor in my purchase making decisions. It was what led me to buy my Bluesblaster (which led to the JT30RH), my Cherry Bomb, and my mother's Christmas gift of a Retro Rocket. They've all served me well as I've progressed through the last few years. And if you know me well enough by now, you know that I'm always on the lookout for little oddball mics that show promise for harp, and I try to coax good sound out of these underdogs. Just something of an obsession of mine.
I would like to raise this question however. Greg, this is purely a matter of my own curiosity, so don't read too deeply into it.
Those of you who are proud owners of, or are thoroughly familiar with Greg's custom wood bullet mics...if you had to choose between the categories of vintage or modern, which would you classify the BlowsMeAway wood mics under? After all, Greg usually builds them with a vintage Shure element of some kind if not another vintage make, and fits them with a vintage style 5/8" screw on connection. So if you were asked your opinion, what would you say? I, for one, would say vintage since the element is really the heart and soul of a mic. I'm still jonesing for a BMA Woody to this day. Hopefully my wishlist will payoff in the near future. ;-)
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2012 9:38 AM
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bloozefish
17 posts
Apr 17, 2012
10:18 AM
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" I, for one, would say vintage since the element is really the heart and soul of a mic."
Hawkeye nailed it. I've owned and built a large number of mics, and sold many on eBay 'back in the day.' To my ears nothing sounds quite as good as a vintage CM or CR.
I like some of the crystals I've had (Astatic MC151s or 101s) but my very favorite crystal element is the old Shure R7s. I have managed to find three working examples over the years, and they are awesome. (BTW, I'm considering selling my pristine small-shell Shure with original working R7 crystal, since it is now just on display. Contact me if you're interested at bloozefish37 AT aol.com)
That being said, sometimes a cleaner mic (Shure 533, EV R10) sounds better through a particularly dirty amp such as a parallel 2X6V6 Supro.
But then again, I'm just an 'ole blues player!
James
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Greg Heumann
1579 posts
Apr 17, 2012
5:50 PM
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Ahh, the key is "to my ears".... To MY ears nothing sounds better than a good CR or CM either. I have the luxury of getting to blow through a huge number of different mics and elements. I have loads of elements in stock at any time and A/B them with a foot pedal switch so I can easily go back and forth quickly and repeatedly. This is the only way I can REALLY hear the differences. Every time I try something I haven't tried before, my first impression is always "hey that sounds pretty cool" - then I A/B it with my old standards and the old ones always win.
I WILL amend the CR/CM statement above by saying that OLD (and I mean OLD, worth over $300 now) Shure, Brush and rarely Astatic crystals have a unique and very cool tone. The newer old crystals (MC-151) just don't have this - or maybe one in 50 does.
But that is just "to my ears"!! There is only one way to form an opinion or preference and that is to have the opportunity to play through prospective elements, hopefully through your own rig. But I realize that is a very unlikely scenario for many. Failing that - you just have to absorb information like there is in this thread, and trust the judgement of those you have come to respect as being knowledgable and experienced.
Oh - and are my woodies new or vintage? I never thought about it. They're just great fucking microphones.
Did I just say that?
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2012 5:51 PM
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HawkeyeKane
892 posts
Apr 17, 2012
6:01 PM
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"Oh - and are my woodies new or vintage? I never thought about that. They're just great fucking microphones."
Can I get an amen?!!
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Hawkeye Kane
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chromaticblues
1210 posts
Apr 18, 2012
6:09 AM
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Another "to my ears" Shure 450 circa 77" CM.
I love the feel of the Shure 450. It's smaller and lighter than the bullet mics. Very easy to cup!!!!!
The easiest mic I've ever used to get that deep cupping fat overdrive sound.
I have a few CM's now and if you like blues it's a great place to start.
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shadoe42
154 posts
Apr 18, 2012
7:08 AM
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for my harp i use an SM57 that I know is 20+ years old. I know this because i have had it for 20 years myself and it was used when I bought it :) Love the thing. At a gig last year I let a venue talk me into just using their sm57...my sound that night totally sucked. It was way way to sharp and bright and nothing i could do on stage was fixing it. So now I go all diva and tell venues i would prefer to use my mic for the harp. So far no one has complained. normally if there is a venue sound guy he is happy to not have to dig out another mic hahaha
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The Musical Blades
My Electronic Music World
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bharper
156 posts
Apr 18, 2012
7:21 AM
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Harp players waste more money on mics than any other piece of gear. It is so tempting to pick up another mic to round out your tone arsenal, but it really makes so little difference. I am of the opinion that a good C/M mic in the hands of a skilled player has the sweetest/dirtiest tone. We all need to become skilled players, not mic collectors.
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HawkeyeKane
893 posts
Apr 18, 2012
7:24 AM
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@shadoe42
I missed my shot at getting a 70's era 545 Unidyne for $50 at a local music store, and I'm still kicking myself for that. Do you know if there was a difference in element design for your old 57 from those sold today? Just so I can keep my eyes open...
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Hawkeye Kane
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atty1chgo
310 posts
Apr 18, 2012
8:01 AM
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I agree with you bharper, a skilled player can make any system sound good. But mics DO make a difference, as even the pros have their preferences. Some people have small hands and some large, other people need a lightweight mic, others heavier. Some players absolutely abhor a bullet mic, others will not play through a stick mic to save their life. Whatever is more comfortable for you and approaches the tone that you like to hear from your playing is the answer. As Greg stated above, you have to try them out and see what works for you.
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Greg Heumann
1581 posts
Apr 18, 2012
8:45 AM
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Older 57's and 545's have more balls. I don't know if there is any difference in the head design, but there is definitely a difference in the internal transformer.
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/Greg
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LittleBubba
213 posts
Apr 18, 2012
9:49 AM
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I've fallen in love again with my old 60's vintage 515 for both harp & vocals. I've had it since '69. I thought it was just the change of pace that had me lit up, but I let our mando player sing through it last night and he agreed with my assessment that it does have more balls & a nice warm tone.
I can't help but think of Greg H. when I use it though, 'cuz it's big & heavy and I like the feel of it, even for long nights. Greg preaches lightweight & easy, I believe. Maybe the fact that I gotta play keyboards on some tunes & get a break from holding the mic helps to mitigate the fatigue.
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lumpy wafflesquirt
561 posts
Apr 18, 2012
10:52 AM
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@greg
Just what do you use your Mics for?
"are my woodies new or vintage? I never thought about it. They're just great fucking microphones. "
"Older 57's and 545's have more balls. I don't know if there is any difference in the head design,"
But don't worry, LittleBubba can't help thinking of you when he uses it "cuz it's big & heavy and I like the feel of it, even for long nights"
Fnarr fnarr
:^)
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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shadoe42
156 posts
Apr 18, 2012
2:13 PM
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@HawkeyeKane
No I honestly cannot tell you. What I can tell you though was there was a huge difference in my sound that night and everyone noticed it. I got a lot of "Great playing as always but the tone was cutting my ears off" comments. On listening to the video that was shot I was more than a little annoyed. there was no bottom end. Partially I suspect due to the newer mic and partially because for some odd reason the sound guy decided to EQ the crap out of my sound. After I had already told him the EQ settings were good :) interestingly enough a year later we played the same room and I used my mic and the sound was tons better. I had actually gone thru and reconfigured my effects slightly to beef up the bottom..but when I asked the guys(in the band) which setting they liked better they all chose my original tone. the only different was the mic in question. Could just be a product of heavy use for 20+ years. I have used this mic in I think..3 or 4 different projects now. When it finally dies I will probably cry over it heh :)
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The Musical Blades
My Electronic Music World
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tbirdflier
37 posts
Apr 22, 2012
10:13 AM
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I have a JT-30 biscuit mic with a black label CR element which suits my tastes to a tee. I have smallish hands and this mic is easy for me to get a tight cup with and I love the tone of the CR element.
Both my amps are tube amps and the mic sounds great with each of them. The mic has no volume control so I use an in line volume control built by Greg H. and I recommend one if you have a mic with no built in voluve control.
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