K_Hungus
85 posts
Feb 18, 2012
9:50 PM
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Today I had a meeting with a guitarplayer. He’s very good, the real deal. It’s been hard for me to find such a guy. We jammed a little and it sounded damn good too.
However he has placed me in a tough position. Our conversation ended with him saying my harp playing is something special but my singing is definitely not. He would only began the adventure with me not singing just me on harp. And we should find a good singer.
That’s really disappointing first of all. I had imagined me singing AND playing harp cause that’s what I really want. I also feel a little offended in someway. I mean hell I know my singing is not great, I probably never be a great singer. And that’s okay with me. I do feel I can get much better and develop my singing hugely. So for someone to say he’s not even willing to give it a try, yeah that hurts me. He also said its not a fact just his opinion.
On the other hand, it’s a great opportunity to actually play with real musicians. He knows people in the scene etc. I can understand him too, he’s very critical and has played in many bands. He only wants to start something if it’s better than a lot that’s out there.
So my question is what would you do? Does anybody see alternatives or has a likewise story to share? For instance I could request singing at least one song, see how it goes from there. And keep my eyes open for ‘what I really want’
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nacoran
5263 posts
Feb 18, 2012
11:33 PM
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I'm lucky to be in a band that's got several people who can sing. I can sing okay, but my voice isn't anything special. Our one guitar player, on the other hand, has a really great voice. I still sing some songs, but not all of them (I get to sing maybe 20-30% of the songs). I have a lot of fun. I get to sing back vocals when I'm not harping and I still get to write a lot of the lyrics. For me, that works, but my dream was to be in a band and write lyrics. Being a lead singer was never the main thing for me.
It's good that he's upfront about what he wants. That's much better than a passive aggressive band member. Talk to him about it and see what you can work out, but be upfront about what you want to. Make sure that if you do give up doing vocals you aren't also giving up having an equal voice in the band or being relegated to being a non-voting member. There are a lot of ways to organize a band, but I think with any group of people once you get into a pattern of how you interact it can be hard to break it.
If you just want to give it a try, be upfront that you aren't committing to anything. You don't want to get a reputation as someone who joins bands and then bails on them. Figure out how much harp the band is going to have, too. I wouldn't want to be in a band where I didn't get to sing and only got to play a little bit of harp here and there, but I'm perfectly happy if harp is a major part of what we are doing.
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GamblersHand
329 posts
Feb 19, 2012
1:07 AM
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I agree with nacoran, it's good that he's being straight up from the start, and as an experienced musician he would know what would be needed as a professional outfit.
But once you have your line up established, you should talk about taking a few songs. It's good for variety and probably the lead singer will welcome an occasional break. You can then work up from there.
My experience was similar - I'm not a natural singer but loved singing, so I was lucky in that my first gigging band they were happy to have me sing a few. Started with maybe one per set then by the time we were well established it was perhaps a quarter or a third. I was pretty mediocre back then, seems I spent most of my 20s learning how to sing!
Nowadays I'm comfortable being the only lead singer in a band (though I'd welcome it if someone would want to sing a few) and I get as many compliments on my singing than my harp playing. I'm glad I persevered with the singing even if I feel a little sorry for those audiences in the early years.
I'd suggest getting some lessons, going to jams and fronting the set, and practice your singing at least as much as your harp playing. Unless you're very gifted, singing's like any other instrument; you need to put the work in.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 1:08 AM
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K_Hungus
86 posts
Feb 19, 2012
2:48 AM
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Yeah it’s not like he thinks about the plan as me having a minor part on harp. The songs we’re gonna work on should be suited for me, he can play anything. How this would work out with the singer I don’t know, but we’ll have to make good agreements.
Thanks for your comments, I think I’ll just f**ing do it!
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hvyj
2173 posts
Feb 19, 2012
5:28 AM
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You should take advantage of this opportunity. One of the things that makes real good musicians really good is that they hear things most of the rest of us are not as sensitive to. Professional quality musicians want to put out a professional quality artistic product--not something that sounds like a work in progress. That's what they get paid for. And that takes discipline. Part of that professional discipline is doing what sounds good instead of doing what you happen to feel like doing. Less professional performers tend to do what they like doing simply because that's what they enjoy. Professional gigging involves working, not just playing.
A harp player who doesn't sing or double on another instrument is a rare commodity in the gigging music world, so your playing must be very good and/or unusually creative for you to have this opportunity. Don't look at not being allowed to sing lead as a restriction. You are just being required to re-direct your energies. This may be a little uncomfortable at first, but most growth experiences do involve some level of discomfort. You have to get out of your comfort zone in order to grow.
It's not about you anyway--IT'S ABOUT THE MUSIC!
FWIW, One of the differences I've observed between professional musicians and most amateurs is that the pros understand this. When they tell one another things like, don't play here, lay out there, don't double that line, etc. they don't fuss over it. Many amateurs tend to whine, complain or argue when they are given instructions/suggestions that they think diminish their individual role in the performance.
Another thought, FWIW: If you are gigging, different gigs may require different approaches. You play differently with a full band than you do in a duo. You play differently if there is a keyboard than if there there's not. Etc. So, if the arrangement with whatever singer you guys get requires you to alter your approach, learn to alter your approach. That's part of learning to play "professionally"--you learn to do what the performance situation requires in order for the music to sound good. If that requires you to get out of your comfort zone, then it's probably good for your musical development.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 6:16 AM
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Andrew
1565 posts
Feb 19, 2012
6:01 AM
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Starting at the bottom is better than not starting.
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jbone
789 posts
Feb 19, 2012
6:09 AM
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who says you have to do only one project at a time? i would go ahead with this guy and maybe see if i could improve my singing chops- in private or away from him- then at some point show him the improved version. at the same time i'd work with him on harp and see who else popped up in the future around the scene.
when i began singing i was really bad. i had no idea how to actually do it, the breathing, staying on key, knowing my good keys, etc etc. i took some coaching from a guy who worked with some big names you'd recognize. what i really hit on was my good keys and breathing much more deeply and establishing control over my wind. for there you can go anyplace on vocals and harp as well.
at one point in the early '00's i had parts in 3 bands and a duo, was hosting an open mic, and subbing in here and there on harp and vocals for local bands as well. i was also writing my own material.
if you have diplomacy skills you can do several things in a given time frame. every new experience will broaden and enrich you as a musician.
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KingBiscuit
156 posts
Feb 19, 2012
6:15 AM
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I've never heard your vocals so I can't comment on their quality. That being said, please don't be offended by my comments,
It sounds to me like the guitarist is just being honest in his opinion. If he didn't like you at all, the offer to play harp only wouldn't be there. Sometimes honesty stings like all hell. But, he wouldn't be doing you any favors by telling you that you have a great voice if you don't. The TV singing competition shows start out with lots of people that absolutely suck but have been told all their lives by family and friends that they have a GREAT VOICE. It's a real shock to them when they find out they don't.
In my opinion, this is a great opportunity for you. Assuming the guitarist has any ear at all, you get the chance to play in a band while honing your vocal skills with honest feedback...which is hard to find in our "everybody gets a trophy" society.
Bottom line...give it a shot.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 6:24 AM
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K_Hungus
87 posts
Feb 19, 2012
6:27 AM
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Good words hvyj. No my harp playin isn't very good nor creative... haha that's just something he thought. Basically he said it had a lot of potential and the basics where already very good. I don’t really care actually, if he wants to work with me that’s fine.
Maybe it has something to do with standards here in Holland. He jammed and played with some harmonica players before. But you see it’s so small around here, the quality maybe less. I compare my playing to you guys here on the forum and what I see on YT.
But most important, I don’t need to be a very good technical and creative player. I just want to play and sound real good, that’s more my focus. Same goes for my singing.
Sure, I am an amateur. I can whine too.. But this is really about the concept, this plan is a little different than I imagined. Maybe you stated this more in general. I’m always open for suggestions so that won’t be the problem.
But the concept know is to have a trio. Guitar, harp, vocals. That’s not so strange is it? I do think when not playing solo’s I still have something to add to the music.
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K_Hungus
88 posts
Feb 19, 2012
6:45 AM
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@jbone biscuit and Andrew Thanks you all, I feel much more confident about this project. I just take the chance. To get things rollin! However it works out, it's better than jamming a long tracks at home.
Oh and Kingbiscuit, if you click on my username you see a link to my youtube channel.
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hvyj
2175 posts
Feb 19, 2012
7:06 AM
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@K Hungus: Ok, I think i understand what's going on. You probably play with a sincere depth of emotion which the guitar player likes. Technical music competence can be taught--true depth of emotion comes from the soul of the player.
Anyway, in a guitar/harp/vocal trio the trick is NOT to play all the time. Know how/when to get in and out. NOT playing for measures makes your playing have much more artistic and emotional impact when you do play. When you are not soloing, punctuate rather than elaborate. If you don't have anything to say, don't force it--don't be afraid to lay out and then come back in when have a musical statement to make that fits. No harp player ever gets fired for underplaying. Always remember, it's NOT about the harmonica, IT'S ABOUT THE MUSIC!
A bandleader I respect once told me that an amateur musician concentrates on what he is doing, but a professional musician concentrates on how what he's doing fits with what everyone else in the ensemble is doing. Pretty good advice I think.
Silence is the 13th note of the 12 tone chromatic scale. What you DON'T play is as important as what you do play and is what makes what you do play that much more interesting. In a trio like that it will be the spaces you leave that will make what you do play work better.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 7:15 AM
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7LimitJI
614 posts
Feb 19, 2012
7:18 AM
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Go for it !
Take some singing lessons, they will vastly improve your harp playing too as you will learn better control of your diaphragm.
I took 6 months of singing lessons more than 10 years ago and have never looked back.
A singer/harp player will always get work, plus you can start your own band.
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K_Hungus
89 posts
Feb 19, 2012
7:58 AM
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Yes hvyj, I think you understood that correct. I'll take your advise.
What I did yesterday was playing a lot of that chordal/2 draw 2bend 3bend stuff. Kind of what Adam gussow does on the song kick and stomp from the ablum. Supporting the groove that way sounded really good in combination what he did on guitar. It really complimented eachother.
Yes 7LimitJI I will!
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 7:59 AM
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hvyj
2176 posts
Feb 19, 2012
8:13 AM
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@K Hungus: You may want to take a look at my post on Jordanchuchan's "Kerfuffle Shuffle" thread. Sometimes you have to be careful with chords--especially if you are playing with a really good guitar player.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 8:15 AM
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timeistight
355 posts
Feb 19, 2012
9:23 AM
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It's a band, not a marriage. Be a non-singing harp player with this guy and look for singing opportunities elsewhere.
One thing I've always noticed about serious musicians is that most of them play with multiple bands.
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jbone
790 posts
Feb 19, 2012
9:41 AM
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it's hard to envision how you'd be with a partner or two based on your vids, i watched a few of them with you doing solo, no backing tracks. that aside i think you do have feel and decent technique if you are as new as you say. for me personally it took me YEARS to get past the most basic things about playing. if you are studying technique and most importantly dynamics, you will be an asset in a duo or trio. but dynamics is crucial. nobody likes a player who never lets up. doing adequate solo work is good, but doing no work is also good, as well as the slightest accents here and there and knowing what fits where. this often comes from actually playing with people. it sounds like it would be hard to find guys to just jam with there, in this country i have been fortunate to have open mics and jams over the years, which is where i honed not just my technical skills but my diplomatic skills as well. not to mention that i met a lot of future band mates on the scene at things like that.
i hope you keep us up on how your project progresses.
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billy_shines
101 posts
Feb 19, 2012
10:04 AM
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good guitarists are all the same they want a girl singer. i bet 50 bucks he will audition a girl. then the rest of the band will start talking about firing you as excess baggage and a burden to making money(even if you started the band). the drummer will be next and replaced with a machine. he will then look for a keyboard player who plays piano bass and fire the bass player who only shows up for gigs not practice. it will be him the girl and the keyboard player splitting 300 bucks 3 ways. there is no honor among musicians and theives.
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