Can someone tell me in layman's terms how modes differ from scales? I know what scales are-major scale, minor scale, blues scale, etc. And I know about the diatonic scale and the chromatic scale and how some scales use and omit notes from each. That to me is as clear as a bell but how are modes different? I have googled this question before and get page-long answers and wind up more confused. Can someone tell me in three sentences or less the difference between scales and modes? Forgive me if this question has been asked before. Thanks.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2012 5:13 PM
The major and natural minor scales are actually two of the seven medieval modes: major is Ionian and natural minor is Aeolian. There are five other scales that all share these same notes.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2012 5:23 PM
C - Ionian C D E F G A B D - Dorian D E F G A B C E - Phrygian E F G A B C D F - Lydian F G A B C D E G - Mixolydian G A B C D E F A - Aeolian A B C D E F G B - Locrian B C D E F G A
search youtube for "michael rubin modes" he explains it perfectly!
So what we harmonica players call positions are similar to modes? I noticed the absence of chromatic notes or half-steps and also octave notes on the chart.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2012 6:45 PM
You could say that each position has a kind of a "home mode": the mode you get if you play in the position without bends, overblows or overdraws. That doesn't mean that you can't play in other modes that aren't home to that position though.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2012 6:12 PM
As already stated the major and natural minor scales happen to be two of the modes available for a given set of notes. Although all modes use the same notes from the given set our ears perceive them differently depending on which note we start on or use as 'home base'.
You already know the Aeolin mode by it's other name (natural minor scale). Now, take the notes from a C major scale but run them up and down starting on the E (E F G A B C D E). You'll probably recognize the Spanish Bull fight flavour of this Phrgian mode. The other modes also have their own characteristic sound.
One thing I've not tracked is how often any of these modes (other than Aeolian) are used in pop music. I's be curious to know.
As far as harmonica positions and modes being interchangeable I'd say...sort of.
It's true that playing a certain position will more naturally yield one of the modes but strictly speaking I think positions has to do with physicality - where you start on the harp and the breath patterns involved. Once you introduce bends and especially overblows the lines get blurred because you could, for example play a MAJOR scale in THIRD position by employing a Hole 5 overblow. Altered tunings simlarly change the scales played but not necessarily the position.
I think it's quite rare for a harp player to play entirely within a mode, at least for anything even just a little bluesy. Perhaps only 4th position is generally played entirely Aeolian? And 1st is sometimes played entirely major for a few country or folk songs.
Usually in first position the three draw single bend is often played to get a flat 7th - it's certainly a "go to" note for 1st position blues. In second of course the 2 3 and 4 draw bends are commonplace. There aren't many harp standards that use the Dorian scale so usually the 7 draw/ 3 draw are avoided in 3rd. In 5th the Phrygian isn't a common mode (flamenco harp, anyone?) so every example I've heard of this position the 5 draw is avoided.
So, my point is, I don't find any musical use in assigning modes to positions. Maybe just me.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2012 6:42 PM
Modes are DIATONIC scales with the half step intervals in different places.
Ionian mode = do re mi scale playable in 1st position w/o bends B4 thorough B7
Dorian mode playable in 3rd position w/o bends D4 through D8 (gives you minor third and minor 7th w/o bending)
Phrygian mode playable in 5th position w/o bends B5 through B8 (gives you minor second, minor third, minor sixth and minor seventh w/o bending but you CAN bend for major second in two registers)
Lydian mode playable in 12th position w/o bends D5 though D9 (Do re mi scale but w/a sharp fourth. Can bend for minor third)
Mixolydian mode playable in 2d position w/o bends B6 through B9 (gives you a do re mi scale but with a flat seventh w/o bending)
Aeolean mode playable in 4th position w/o bends D6 through D10 (gives you minor third, minor sixth and minor seventh w/o bending which is the natural minor scale--BUT you can bend for major seventh in two registers to play harmonic minor)
Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian and Aeolean modes are all commonly used in popular music. Phrygian less so, but "White Rabbit" Nora Jones' "I've Got to See You Again" and I think "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" are Phrygian.
Pick a harp position that provides a mode that gives you most of the notes you need to play a particular tune and bend for the other notes you need. That is the basic foundation for playing multiple positions.
Although the most famous modes are based on the major scales, a there are as many modes as there are notes in all the scales in the world, be they diatonic or chromatic.
Every scale is a mode of itself. The C major scale is a mode of the C major scale. C D E F G A B C is a mode of C D E F G A B C. But a mode can also be a scale that uses the notes from another scale and starts on a different scale tone.
For example a mode of C D E F G A BC is D E F G A B C D
However, to disagree with Hvyj, a mode does not need to be based on a diatonic scale. Here is the C chromatic scale: C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B Here is a mode of that scale: C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C
To explain it in three sentences or less:
Do unto others as you would have done unto you.
OK, kidding.
A mode is a scale that uses the notes from another scale but starts and ends on a different scale tone, although the original scale is actually a mode of itself. In order to create the feeling of the new mode, the band needs to play in the key that has the same name as the new scale's tonic note. For example,to get the feeling of the second mode of the C major scale, which is the notes of the C major scale starting and ending on D (D E F G A B C D) the band should play in the key of D.
If you are willing to listen to more than three sentences, here is the first of my series on modes. However, my videos are built upon the information found in the previous videos. Therefore, within the videos on modes may be the assumption that you have watched and understood the previous 50 videos. I would recommend starting from video 1. I also give skype lessons.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2012 9:57 PM
I do agree that any scale can have modes. I should have been more specific: The Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Aeolean, Mixolydian and Lochrian modes are DIATONIC modes. I think those particular modes were what the OP was asking about.
Each of those modes is associated with a particular position. If you are playing in that position, that does not necessarily mean you are playing in the associated mode--it just means that you can play all the notes of the associated mode somewhere on that harmonica without having to bend or OB in order to do it.
If you've got a keyboard, you can play the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolean and Lochrian modes of the C scale as follows: C to C on the white keys = Ionian. D to D on the white keys = Dorian. E to E on the white keys = Phrygian. F to F on the white keys = Lydian. G to G on the white keys = Mixolydian. A to A on the white keys = Aeloean. B to B = Lochrian. You can use ANY scale as the "parent" scale, but only modes built off of the C major scale will be all white keys.
So, each mode has the SAME notes as the "parent" scale it is a mode of, but you start on a different degree of that "parent" scale to get the first note of each respective mode. Ionian starts on 1st degree and IS the "parent" scale. Dorian starts on 2. Phrygian starts on 3. Lydian starts on 4. Mixolydian starts on 5. Aeolean starts on 6. Lochrian starts on 7. (Btw, Lochrian mode corresponds to 6th position.)
So, for example, the Dorian mode of C generates a D scale with a flat third and a flat seventh. The Dorian mode of A generates a B scale with a flat third and a flat seventh. And so on. The value of this to a diatonic harp player is that it allows you to pick a position that will give you certain very useful patterns of sharps and flats IN A DIATONIC SCALE playable without bends or OBs which is very handy.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 5:07 AM
Well, Frank, different styles of squeaks work better in different modes/positions. For your interests, Mixolydian mode/second position works best. But you can also do the choo-choo train thing in Ionian mode/first position. I'm not sure whether Filisko covers first position choo choo train in his instructional materials, though. Could you check that out and let us know?
It's Friday, for cryin' out loud. Go back to your respective corners and chug or be melodic, whatever floats YOUR boat. Just make it modal. ---------- Todd L. Greene
Frankly, it offends me when reputable experts denigrate and trivialize the capabilities of the instrument by propagandizing sound effects as music. It is precisely that sort of thing that gives harmonica players in general a bad reputation among real musicians which is something I regularly have to confront which happens to piss me off. So, no, I'm not going to let it go.
You know, opinions are like assholes. Everyone is entitled to at least one and that happens to be mine.
I imagine the next step will be to lock this thread. Afterall, it contains substantive discussion of music and not mindless hero worship and if that's going to be allowed, god forbid what else might happen.
So going ahead, lock the thread out of fear that the icons may be exposed as having feet of clay. After all, we can't have anyone actually pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 6:40 AM
They'd probably lock that, too, like they did your "Worthy of NETWORKing" thread because it would not have adequate group think hero worship content to appease the sensibilities of the moderators.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 6:46 AM
No, it's because you "hijack" Threads and spew nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand...Moderator, can you please edgakate hvyj on forum etiquette?
The 'hero worship' jab missed me. I don't buy into that school of thought. I ain't locking this thread, as we will recognize our difference of opinions, press on with life, and allow this thread to get back on track. Capiche? ---------- Todd L. Greene
So, any substantive comparative remarks that deviate from the title line of a thread are contrary to board etiquette? I'm sorry, I am intellectually incapable of compartmentalizing my thought processes with that sort of rigidity.
No, not at all-I'm the king of segues in a thread-but the back and forth between Frank and yourself is the issue here. You both bring a lot to the table and I for one appreciate the input of both you, but when threads turn catty(and I thought only women hairdressers were catty) due to a difference of opinion, then spill into other threads, it's time for a cooler head to prevail and say 'cut it out'. Hopefully a cooler head will show up soon. ;-) ---------- Todd L. Greene
There was nothing wrong with this thread until Frank jumped in to troll hvyj's posts and continue to antagonize him (including multiple posts calling of a moderator to put him in his place). Even if hvyj was being sarcastic, he was on topic and his post included information relevant to the post.
"But please refrain from flaming, insulting, or otherwise impugning the intelligence or good intentions of your fellow board members, or from starting threads that seek to encourage that sort of behavior."
If anyone is breaking a creed, it is the person who is name calling and literally laughing in the face of someone trying to actually contribute to a thread with information that is actually useful to people.
It is a shame that some people insist on going out of their way to attack and poke at members of this forum who 1.) have given a tremendous amount of information for others that is valuable to learning the harmonica as an instrument 2.) perform live with top quality musicians on a regular basis (not just sitting in or jamming, but real gigging) 3.) don't fish for compliments or try to show off 4.) work to go beyond copying recordings to actually learn how to make new music - good or bad - that is based in sound musical reasoning.
"No, it's because you "hijack" Threads and spew nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand...Moderator, can you please edgakate hvyj on forum etiquette? "
All the modes are there in 2nd position too. This is where it gets heady and referring to harmonica positions in terms of positions.
As related to a C harmonica where C is the starting point of the major scale being discussed, then yes, the Mixolydian is G.
However, if you take a C harp and start the major scale on 2 draw, you can create the modes relevant to the key of G from 2 draw.
I tend to think of modes as the basic scale of positions and then use note changes withing the modes to change scales. That isn't the *right* way to do it, but how I can conceptualize it.
For example, I can take the Lydian mode and use:
2" 2 2+ 3" 3 4+ 4 5+ 5 (I think that is right)
as the my homebase for 12th position. If I bend the 3 down to 3', I now have a major scale starting on 2" that would let me play F Major on a C harp.
I use modes as the first filter for deciding what harp has the best layout for a certain scale or key.
It is also how I work out pentatonics. I either sit down and do the math, or play the mode as a pentatonic and listen for notes that don't sound right. I the decide how to bend them to get to a major or minor pentatonic.
I can't just sit down and memorize stuff...I need to find connections between patterns in order to really get it.
In summary, I learned the modes and the arpeggios of those modes. Then I use my ear to find what notes I can bend to form new scales.
The con right now is positions 7, 8, 9, and 10 only seem like a lesson in doing it for the sake of doing it. It is much easier for me to use the other positions and either play diatonic to a key, use a pentatonic, or substitue scales.
Really, I could play 90% of any songs I've tried to learn in 2nd position as all the modes, scales, and notes are right there. It just isn't always the easiest or most expressive way to do it. I just know that when in doubt, I can come up with something.
***You don't have to overbend to do this, although, I find it gives me a bit more flexibility. For example, 11th is pretty limited if you don't overbend...same with 4th.
I know some people insist on learning to play new riffs in all 12 keys. I've never had much interest in transposing things that were harder to play in a different key. Why wouldn't I use the best harp for the job? A lot of things transfer nicely anyways....for example, most of Sugar Blues's middle and upper octave playing would work in multiple positions. If you listen to him enough, you can hear him using his 2nd position riffs in 3rd, etc.
Learning to master the middle and upper octave, IMO, makes playing in multiple keys on a harp a lot easier to do - you don't have so many bends and patterns that work in one key often work in other keys too.
Todd, A mode is a scale. There are many different modes, not just Mixolydian. Since you can play any note on any harmonica, you can play any mode in any position. Therefore you can play any mode in second position, not just mixolydian.
However, the second position mixolydian mode is very easy to play since every blow note and every draw note without bending or overblowing is a member of the 2nd position mixolydian mode. There are three bends that can be played in the 2nd position mixolydian mode, 2 double, 3 double and 10 single. But if you had a C harp and told the band to play a blues in G and you played without any bends, you would sound good and be playing in the 2nd position mixolydian mode.
I fail to perceive how a remark contrasting a modal/scalular approach to harmonica study with a chord based train rhythm approach is off topic or consftitutes "hijacking the thread."
Todd, the short answer to your question "So, the only mode in 2nd position is Mixolydian-did I read that right?" is, no, but you need to bend or overblow to get the other ones.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 7:46 AM
Thanks, Micheal, Mike & TimeisTight. I'm one who plays, but only knows WHAT I am playing(as far as verbal description)in rare occasions. I come here to get schooled.
Frank, stop looking at hvyj and hvyj, stop breathing on Frank, or so help me, I'll turn this car around right now and you two can just DREAM of DisneyWorld. ---------- Todd L. Greene
Just so I am understanding this correctly, I am being forbidden from articulating comparative analysis of how modal playing and chordal oriented playing differ?
I wonder how many of the original blues harp players ever cared about theory and western harmony.it seems to me they were learning a language and singing it.
This is how he began his introduction into this thread...hvyj quote.."Thanks. This is the sort of stuff I wasted my time learning when I should have been practicing choo-choo train rhythms."
"I wonder how many of the original blues harp players ever cared about theory and western harmony.it seems to me they were learning a language and singing it."
Evidently, they all did. How can you play with a band if you don't know some of this stuff? If there is no language to learn, then how can one learn it? It isn't mere coincidence that they all ended up suing the same notes to play blues?
Colman, this isn't directed at you specifically, but it makes me chuckle when fundamentalist blues players look down at or discredit music theory. I can't think of another idiom based on and judged by such strict adherence to a hard and fast set of rules (which extends beyond sound and includes gear, dress, and demeanor).
The rules to play blues make learning things like ragas simple in comparison. Blue notes, swing, 12 bar, etc aren't intimidating to learn, but something as basic and universal as a mode is too heady... ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 8:08 AM
I should just said, "How can you learn a language without knowing any of the words?". Dang it, I always think of these things too late. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
"I wonder how many of the original blues harp players ever cared about theory and western harmony."
I don't think they cared too much about whether their harps were 7- or 19-limit justly intonated or if cathode-biased amps were better than fixed-bias ones. So what?
How did the older players know music without knowledge of theory, a la modes(suddenly I crave ice cream)or positions?
Simple. They played music, and it sounded good.
So, in essence, they were proficient in a language without knowing the vocabulary.
WE are the Geek Generation of players(well, some of us)that must able to explain away every little nuance of the music we listen to or play, instead of just letting it flow and sound good. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but that's also the difference between a 100% learned-by-ear player(I'm in that number)and the scholarly type-one can play without lengthy explanations of what they play and the other might also be able to do this, but not all can. Raise your hand if you know college-educated musicians that can't improvise to save their life. Life is like music-sometimes it jumps off the page and you better be able to wing it. ---------- Todd L. Greene
"How can you learn a language without knowing any of the words?".
Actually, I think a better analogy is that plenty of people learn how to talk without knowing a thing about "the rules" of grammar in any intellectual sense. Similarly, I bet there are, or at least have been, Alaskan bush pilots who would look at you like an alien if you asked them about the Bernoulli Principle, but could land their planes on a postage stamp.
That's not an indictment of learning theory, but I don't think some of the old delta blues guys would even be conversant on the level of this thread. Hell, weren't some or most illiterate?
Of course then they'd pick up their harp or guitar and blow your mind. Makes me admire them even more.
just sayin'
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 8:49 AM
Now way they didn't have vocabulary for what they were doing. No way they all just got in a room picked an instrument, and started jamming.
Blues performed by a band is too technically difficult to just play without communication. It sounded good because they were on the same page.
Think of a modern day jam from the perspective of a harmonica player who has only learned to play by ear and the assumptions made:
What key are we in (which a harp player almost always assumes means the progression is diatonic and based on dominant 7 chords)?
What kind of groove is it?
Where are the stops?
What kind of progression?
Think of how you'd call out Juke from the bandstand.
Most this confusion about how much theory is actually in play is often lost on harmonica players and singers as they can still play while remaining ignorant to what is going through the head of a drummer, guitar player, bass player, etc.
Nah, you have to have SOME knowledge of theory to lead, certainly. I do, and I can, but I can't wrap my mind around some of the deeper explanations, which don't seem deep at all for those gifted in the understanding of theory, such as hvyj, Rubin, etc.
I don't discount theory whatsoever, but my point is that blues can 'flow' with minimal explanation. That's the beauty of it. ---------- Todd L. Greene
Whether I know or not they realized the cared or not, they did. I think we aren't giving them enough credit or respect in assuming they just jammed everything out, but there are too many generalizations of what blues is/isn't for the old guard to not have played without a sense of direction.
Hell, they created the rules we use to talk blues now. All of the theory talk is just putting to words what "works" so people can communicate ideas. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
