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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
scales and modes
scales and modes
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HarpNinja
2178 posts
Feb 17, 2012
8:41 AM
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Todd,
You're not giving yourself enough credit. Think of the first time you picked up a harmonica. You weren't playing blues. There is a level of instant gratification, but all that are there are parts of modes.
Blues only flows for you because you've learned at least a decent chunk of the idiom. It may have been through trial and error, or maybe not? What flows is the stuff you've learned to play and practiced. It just so happens you've chosen to learn blues, so that it what comes out.
For others, jazz improv would flow just as naturally because it is the language they learned.
Also, tying it back to grammar, it would be hard to hold a three hour conversation with someone only knowing a handful of word or having only a limited understanding of how to communicate in that language.
Granted, we only use a small part of our vocabulary each day, but it is hard to explain yourself to others if you only have a limited vocabulary.
***The whole music as a language thing is the basis for most my feelings about performance and why I can't understand why people become so interested in playing note for note covers of songs and melodies in isolation after becoming proficient on an instrument. I would never try to express myself by reciting dialogue from a TV show word for word to others. I would never write a story but retyping one that already exists.
Think of how your loved ones would feel if you tried to pour your heart out to them by reading a script somebody else wrote. You really would have to find a way to make it your own for it to come off as heart felt.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 8:46 AM
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Michael Rubin
440 posts
Feb 17, 2012
8:50 AM
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We will never know how much the older players knew about theory but I feel it is a type of wish fulfillment to suggest they didn't know. "They didn't know, so I don't need to!" It has been documented that Howlin' Wolf studied theory. Musselwhite has been quoted about learning 4th and 5th position from the two Walters. They might not have called it 4th, but they called it the key of A on a C harp. Most of our biggest heroes were the top musicians of their time. I cannot imagine they did not know how to say "Come in at the turnaround" or "this song starts of the four chord." or "This song is in the key of G!" My guess is when Little Walter and Charlie Parker played in the same city, they dropped in to listen, had a drink and talked theory. Walter's sense of harmony was extremely advanced. If it was all by ear I would be very surprised.
My recommendation to you: take your no theory self and join a blues band, country band, punk band, rock band, folk band, reggae band,etc. Nothing heavy theory based like jazz, just basic music. Make sure you play melodies and horn lines and join in on the hits and melodic cues. Spend at least 6 months in every band. Then come back and tell me you don't need theory. My guess is you will come up against communication wall after wall and your bandleaders will simplify your role in the band to where you are taking solos and fills and that is it. You will also be asked not to solo on many songs. I do not mean to be harsh, I just believe that in order to do more than just jam on the simplest of progressions, you need theory to communicate with bandleaders.
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Michael Rubin
441 posts
Feb 17, 2012
8:54 AM
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There is a reason my lessons are called Meat and Potatoes. The stuff I am talking about is VERY basic music theory that most club musicians can talk about in their sleep without having gone to college. Nothing I am teaching would be considered advanced. Most club musicians would not even consider it theory because it is so basic to them. It's not theory, it's just music.
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toddlgreene
3539 posts
Feb 17, 2012
9:01 AM
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My 'no theory self' has played in bands for 22 years-my ears and a small knowledge of theory has gotten me by. Now, throw me in a freeform jazz or classical setting-I'd be screwed.
Again,I don't discount knowledge of theory at all-I just don't readily digest it, although I can play most of it. That is my admitted shortcoming.
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Todd L. Greene
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HarpNinja
2179 posts
Feb 17, 2012
9:03 AM
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Great post, Michael!
In the last 8years, I've only played long-term with musicians with music school backgrounds...like Berklee and McNally-Smith (top tier schools). They can all easily talk over my head...way over my head. I've also played with guys who aren't music schooled. I can usually talk over their heads, lol.
In either instance, all of us need to be able to talk to each other. With either group, the M&P language is what generally gets used.
Usually, we talk in terms of chords and harmony (maybe how to count stuff, but the rhythm stuff is usually inferred or felt). Topics like learning a riff by intervals, discussing scale options for soloing, what chords make up the harmony, etc are always brought up.
I can't tell you the notes of every scale or chord, but knowing about modes, intervals, and pentatonics make it really easy to jump right in.
In blues it is sometimes simplified by there being so many constants between songs, BUT I would argue knowing more than blues theory makes it a lot easier to play a set without every song sounding the same.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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Michael Rubin
443 posts
Feb 17, 2012
9:38 AM
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Todd,
Although I began to get theory basics when I had been playing 2 years, I really did not know very much until I had been playing 15 years. I was in countless different types of bands and played some great music, so I do not doubt that you are doing the same.
Then I did a Broadway show. One day, a singer was sick. There was around 15 minutes until the show began. The conductor said, "The singer cannot make it. His substitute cannot sing in the key we have been doing the song in. We're going to do it in A instead." I said, "What key are we doing the song in now?" You could have heard a pin drop. I realized then I was doing myself a great disservice and began asking every musician I knew all I could about theory. Within a year of studying I was able to add leagues more to every band. It was a huge turning point for me in terms of playing great music.
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7LimitJI
610 posts
Feb 17, 2012
9:42 AM
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@Harpninja
"I can't understand why people become so interested in playing note for note covers of songs and melodies in isolation after becoming proficient on an instrument"
You do realise Dennis covered Rocker practically note for note?
"BUT I would argue knowing more than blues theory makes it a lot easier to play a set without every song sounding the same."
Throw a few note for note covers in and this will not happen.
In fact, the audience prefer it, as each song has its own recognisable identity iso, just another shuffle or swing number.
Whats the difference between learning a scale and learning a solo ?
To me none as the solo will have all,or most of the notes from the scale in it, plus more from other useful scales.
I don't care how I get to the destination, just as long as I get there.
I do appreciate theory and have picked up a lot, but it is not a requirement to play the blues.
The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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