It's an alright top 20. Even if they aren't all essential & seems to be missing guys like William Clarke (I can name more people influenced by him then some of the guys in the 2nd 20). I think Adam's goal is to give newer players a easy top 20 list to check out and get a feeling for blues harmonica throughout history & with the addition of an actual modern player I think we can now call it that as opposed to just a list of traditional blues harmonica players.
Two things about this discussion surprise me. First, Kingley has chosen not to take my bait, but is instead lying low--for the time being, perhaps. Kingley, if we cross paths when I'm in London in two weeks, the first pint is on me.
Second, did I miss something or has nobody raised the question of where Dennis Gruenling fits in? He may not be as influential as Kim Wilson (who IS influential as hell, HarpNinja) or Rod, but it's hard to argue at this point that he's not their equal. Watching the "Rocker" video posted on the forum today, I certainly felt as though I were watching a masterful pro at the top of his game.
Regarding somebody's comment about Rick Estrin as a representative white-guy harp player: I'm forced to disagree. Although his approach clearly falls on the traditionalist side of things relative to Sugar Blue and Jason, in truth he has developed an extremely distinctive sound--a yelp that swings hard, you might say. Like Kim and Dennis, he's got a whole lot of jazz percolating up through his blues. "Coastin' Hank" remains a touchstone for me.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2012 8:08 PM
I probably wouldn't have gotten into harmonica without hearing Jason play. I play several other instruments and his shear ability is what made me realize I could find everything I ever wanted out of the sax and trumpet in the diatonic harp.
I originally bought a harmonica as kind of a whatever buy. Now it is slowly edging out most everything else aside from guitar. I mean who knew I'd have like 40 harmonicas I use as well as several Amos for the task and a pile of microphones.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 5:51 AM
"Two things about this discussion surprise me. First, Kingley has chosen not to take my bait, but is instead lying low--for the time being, perhaps. Kingley, if we cross paths when I'm in London in two weeks, the first pint is on me."
Kudzu - Hahaha! Sorry Adam, I've been a little tied up playing at some jams and stuff. I'm reading with interest though and will post my thoughts later today as I have to go to work right now. I'm not sure if I can get down to London for your gigs this time, but I'll certainly try and get there. It would be great to hear you play live and chew the fat a while.
I get a kick out of best of lists and the discussions they provoke.
"You never know what is in the mind of the judges"...why does one movie get an academy award when another one doesn't? Why does this guy win the blues contest when the other one doesn't?
"Best" is so subjective.
Jason has made awesome accomplishments harmonica-wise. However, from my old curmudgeon life experience, my brain shut down after about 10 minutes of non stop rapid fire notes zipping past my ears.
Am I right or wrong? Question doesn't apply. Everyone has the right to be right about what they feel is right. Room enough on this planet for all.... ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 4:31 AM
Dennis Gruenling is Jason Ricci's EQUAL in every way... in otherwords - each of them has an arsenal of "Musical Tricks" that the other lacks, BUT even though they can't duplicate one anothers styles at will -- regardless THEIR styles are unparalleled when it comes to FRESHNESS of delivery! ...I have a suspicion that if ONLY those two guys and their bands were booked to play in an areana to 10,000 blues lovers, (not harmonica lovers) That the overall consensus would be a TIE as far as who was the BEST...
And William Clarke and Rod Piazza have EASLIY PROVEN in [every way imaginable] that they HAVE an original voice on the harp that is undeniably so SPECIAL > that to HEAR the music they created "especially for the first time" is an (OH MY GOD) moment and Realize that your listening to a MASTER MUSICIAN ...The way they play a tune on the harmonica is TOTALLY their OWN, TOTALLY inspirational, TOTAL mastery and command of every minute detail when playing a song that when listened to, it's absurdly obvious they are not only MODERN MASTERS but GENIUSES when it come to making music that will ENDURE the riggers of time.
On a side note I love the solo Gary Primich plays in this song...IT sounds like he was INSPIRED by William Clarkes style
"Jason stands at the present extreme of the tradition. His technical gifts are unquestionable. His musical sensibility and soulfulness (the song and the fire inside) have been amply demonstrated"
Yes I would agree that Jason belongs on Adams list due to his contributions to modern blues harmonica. He has definitely turned a lot of younger people onto the instrument and has taken playing the harmonica in new and exciting directions.
Junior Wells? I'm not so sure that I'd put Junior in an all-time top ten. I mean he was a great player and an amazing performer. Was he though a harmonica great in the same vein as people like Big and Little Walter, George Smith and Sonny Terry? No, not in my book. Howlin' Wolf is the same for me. I'd put both him and Junior high up in a "blues entertainer" list, but not in a harmonica one. Although Wolf of course more than easily passes the three second test. You could use the same argument for Jimmy Reed of course too.
If I had to replace Jimmy Reed, Junior Wells and Howlin' Wolf in the list then I'd probably move Kim Wilson into the top ten, as many of the more traditional players I talk to today are influenced by him. Into the second ten I'd move in Rod Piazza. SImply because he has been one of the biggest single influences on the West Coast style (maybe not in California, but definitely worldwide) for over forty years. I'd also add Dennis Gruenling in there simply because he is a monster player and in my opinion he is taking the tradition in new directions.
Other than that, the list looks ok to me. It's Adam's list, so of course it's his subjective view. His lists have a wide range of players of varying blues styles. That any person coming into playing blues harmonica could do well to study.
FWIW, I honestly think that I would be hard pressed to draw up a top ten list as most of my favourite players wouldn't meet all the criteria cited. Plus of course there would have to be way more than ten!
tmf714 - Magic Dick? Again he's a great player but is he great enough to be on a top ten list? To me the answer would have to be no. Whammer Jammer is great and of course the J. Geils Band were a real tour de force. I'd maybe put him in a top thirty list, but not a top ten.
Oh I disagree Frank. I think Dennis Gruenling wins! Jason is a more of a modern Pop Rock musician. Dennis is a Blues musician. They are different and can't judged the same way. Not that either should be judged they are both so good! But since this is an internet forum that doesn't mean shit! Shall we: If you picked a random 100 people of the street and gave them a CD where both dennis and Jason where playing as side men (not singing) I would bet money that the majority of people would like Jason's playing more. Why because it is more modern and he could easily record with the best Rock in the world! Dennis is a Blues musician he the music as to have room for him to do his thing.
"Second, did I miss something or has nobody raised the question of where Dennis Gruenling fits in? He may not be as influential as Kim Wilson (who IS influential as hell, HarpNinja) or Rod, but it's hard to argue at this point that he's not their equal. Watching the "Rocker" video posted on the forum today, I certainly felt as though I were watching a masterful pro at the top of his game."
Kim is influential, and as previously stated, my favorite blues harmonica player, but not nearly as influential as others on the list you posted. There are far more people trying to play like every other name in the top 10. Again, I am looking at ALL of this in context of your list...not just generally speaking, etc.
Going by your criteria, Dennis has a hard time getting on the list (unless you start weighting the criteria). How many non-hardcore harmonica players or blues fans know who people like Paul deLay and Dennis Gruenling are? If we start looking strictly at who get just flat out play the blues, Dennis would have every right to be a round one pick for the ultimate head cutting competition.
"Regarding somebody's comment about Rick Estrin as a representative white-guy harp player: I'm forced to disagree."
I said that, and I think, in context, compared to George Smith, William Clarke, and Rod Piazza (for example), he doesn't carry the same weight regarding your criteria. That doesn't mean he isn't awesome...I just don't think he offers enough unique or influential compared to guys on and off the list already. Again, we're taking the cream of the crop, not all harmonica players.
I am trying really hard to only focus on the criteria, so all my comments are based off that. Hence singling out someone like Magic Dick, who is most famous as a rock musician. Also, I think we've all generally forgotten to filter our opinions based on the intent of the list.
The more I think about it - if the goal is to give a newb a place to start with easily accessible music that is worth learning from - my opinions should all be slanted by the amount of learning materials associated with that artist.
My BIGGEST frustration in starting out was there was NO support ANYWHERE to learn to play like the guys that got me interested in playing harmonica. The only option was to try to listen and copy - and even 10yrs ago, it was near impossible to find something to slow down the playing without changing pitch. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 7:46 AM
Dennis Gruenling is indeed an astounding harmonica player. He doesn't quite meet the all criteria set by Adam YET. He fails at the moment on the "Influence" section. I haven't heard widespread acknowledgement of Dennis having heavily influenced many players. I'm sure it's out there though and I'm sure that more and more people will be. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever though that Dennis Gruenling is a modern blues harmonica master.
I would never put Magic Dick in the list. Apart from that one number "Whammer Jammer" his influence on harmonica in general has not been great. He is of course a great player and the J. Geils Band were very big back in the day. If you put Magic in then you'd have to put Jerry McCain in, as "She's Tough" and "Steady" are as influential as "Whammer Jammer".
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 8:46 AM
I am influenced by Dennis Gruenling. Although I am not a big fan of his music, I can tell a master when I see one. Every time I have the opportunity to see him live, I do it. Every SPAH I make sure to spend at least 15 minutes driving him crazy with my questions. When I lived in New York I took a private lesson. If you've ever listened to a Gruenling song and thought "I could work a little harder on my traditional electric blues/swing blues/chromatic" You've been influenced.
"If you've ever listened to a Gruenling song and thought "I could work a little harder on my traditional electric blues/swing blues/chromatic" You've been influenced."
Michael - You make a very, very good point Michael. Adam needs to put him in the top ten. Thank you for confirming the influence section for me. I'm afraid if I started asking Dennis questions he probably have an injunction took out to stop me ever talking to him again, as I think I'd drive him completely bonkers with questions! :-) I can still remember the first time I heard his music. My jaw was on the floor. In fact it's still on the floor every time I hear him. His phrasing simply never ceases to amaze me.
"Just on influence alone ,Magic would be in the top ten-90% of the people on this forum have not heard his 1968-69 playing."
tmf714 - If 90% of the people on this forum (a blues harmonica forum) haven't heard his playing from 1968-69. How on earth can he be in the top ten "Just on influence alone"?
I have reviewed adams top 10 and second 10 list-I would have kim wilson and carey bell in the top 10 but not sure which 2 in the top 10 would be replaced-looking over the honorable mention list if someone is in that list is definitely quite an honor-it puts you in high cotton with jerry portnoy phil wiggins rod piazza
Magic is a big influence on me. I was a child of the Sixtys and loved the Dead,the Who,and lots of the psychedelic stuff On the radio one day I heard "First I look at the Purse". I was hooked. I became a huge J. Geils band fan and an even bigger fan of MD. They are what led me to become a hardcore blues fan.
MD is a pretty unique player. Nobody else approaches the harp quite like he does. He must have been a horn player first,because he cops a lot of stuff from them.His comping is easily recognizable and unique. Everyone mentions "Whammer Jammer" but nobody mentions some of the other stuff he's done. Sno Cone,Pack Fair and Square-no other harper does it like that. The one problem is he was never a band leader,doesn't sing-more of a sideman. Wait-did he sing in Bluestime?
He actually was originally a trumpet/sax player prior to harp.He played some sax on the latter J Geils records.As far as my interpetation of his being on the list,I don,t want to be mis-understood on my assessment,I was thinking on terms of blues harmonica.As for Blues /Roots /Rock he pretty much was untouchable back in his time with Geils and as said was a very big influence on my introduction to harmonica,hands down,why wouldn,t he nobody was ripping harp like that with a rock/blues band in the 70,s and 80,s.He opened doors for many of us 50 somethings prior to exploring the deeper blues harmoni-cats after hearing they,re first few albums.I also think that he had his own unique sound back then as do some of the modern day harpers.
The thing about JR is that he is so damn crisp and clean and like Frank said razor sharp. When i tried to play what he was on the youtube vids above I cant get past the first run because he is moving at warp speed. there is no doubt that he is an incredible player, but I will say that he doesn't cast much of a Blues spell on me when I listen, probably because I prefer James Cotton's style. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/mudflapnicholsandthetwistedspokes
" How influential can a person be if, "90% of the people on this forum have not heard his 1968-69 playing"?
Thats how tiny this forum is in relation to the players and people he has influenced-I said this forum -not the world.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 1:45 PM
Hmmm... If I said J. Geils Band to any non-harp player 90% of them (official office of Made Up Statistics estimate) would say "Nah, nah nah, nana nah - My angel is a centrefold". If I said Magic Dick, they'd think I was talking about a basketball player or a male pornstar.
The one person I ever spoke to about J. Geils who had actually heard more than "Centrefold" (a guitarist well steeped in contemporary blues) thought Salwitz was just a saxophonist.
No way Mr long fellow! Where I grew up over half the people I came in contact with knew who Magic Dick. AS I said in a previous post who made people go out and buy a harp for the first more than Magic Dick. I can't believe this bullshit about the only thing he ever did was "Whammer Jammer"? Anyone that saw J. Giels live knows how F*c*e* UP that is. His power and percise intonation was amazing. Magic Dick was a MASTER of amplified harp in the context of the band he played in. If he played in a blues band I'll bet he would have made a bunch more amazing recordings.
I have a question for all the people that don't see the Magic Dick light. What album recorded by anyone was a bigger influence than J Geils Live Full House? From 1972 to 1980 Magic Dick had so many people playing the harp that I don't believe anyone has ever been close! Word
Also I would put Suger Blue and Dennis Gruenling in the top 10! Where is Adam Gussow on the list? Adam don't be shy. You where Jason's greatest influence!
Perhaps it's an Anglo-American difference? I don't think they really had much presence in the UK other than one no. 1 hit which featured no harmonica.
*Edit* same could apply to John Popper too. Blues Traveller didn't cross the pond well either.
*Edit 2* BTW I'm not really making any sort of argument for or against here. I personally love Magic Dick's work with Bluestime and J Geils.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2012 2:41 PM
By the time they did "Centerfold" this die hard geils fan had checked out (but the entire 70s whooo man they were hot), but then as a Stones fan, I didn't exactly think Miss You (was that Some Girls album?) came close to being their best effort either.
In the end kudzu's lists are perfectly good serviceable lists for anybody wanting to immerse themselves in the greats.
For what it's worth, I think that Magic Dick virtually defined harp-playing in a blue-eyed soul/r&b/garage band context. I used to play in a band that played plenty of soul and r&b and he was certainly my main influence for tackling that kind of material. I wouldn't put in top ten, but maybe a contender at least for the next ten.
Dennis is a competent pro. Faultless if you like, but I never listen to him. He doesn't trailblaze or provide anything new. I'd swim the Atlantic to take free lessons from him, but I never listen to him. His fat, masterful tone (the low harps help) might influence people, but I'm not sure anything else about him can be influential. A while back he was doing too much bland rumba playing for my taste.
I gather hvyj is nearly violently anti-Deford Bailey. Hmmm, earlier Deford didn't feature on these lists at all. I'm gratified that he does now, but actually I wonder how influential he really was, and I'm a little surprised. ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000874537399
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2012 1:04 AM
Deford Bailey closed out the grand ole opry show on WSM nashville before he was fired by the new sponsors in 1941 because he refused to change his act-the opry had a very large following so he was very well known but not as a blues harp player
groy...They LOVED him for his AMAZING imitations of animals and trains a truly special talent, one of the Greatest to ever play the harp that's for darn sure! I'm glad he's in the top 10, if anyone derserves to be it's Mr. Deford Bailey, we can all agree on that hands down!
@Andrew-let me ask you this about Dennis -who sounds like Dennis? Who matches his tone and phrasing? Most would say,or ask of a modern player,whos does he sound like? It's the other way around with Dennis. Low harps play a small part in his tone-he utilizes an F,C or D harp and gets great tone and unique sound from it as well. It really boils down to technique. Bland Rhumba playing? Expond please---
@Frank when the grand ole opry stars went on tour andwould stay in hotels roy acuff would tell the hotel staff that deford was his valet and he WILL be staying in my room with me-otherwise he would have slept outin the car...I admire roy acuff for that
I have a cd from the tennessee folklore society where deford allowed some solo work to be recorded on tape plus gave an interview about harmonica quality and soaking to make the comb swell-he never trusted the music industry after WSM released him-I may be mistaken but it sounds like sonny terry was influenced by deford bailey
Frank and groyster, there's a site called defordbaily.info If you haven't been there,check it out. It's a real treat. Imagine being at Deford's house for an hour and hearing him play not just harp but guitar and banjo too. Plenty of fox chase and train. click on listen (it's also a free download with a neat story behind it.)
"I gather hvyj is nearly violently anti-Deford Bailey."
No. I'm not familiar enough with his material to have an opinion. I do understand his reputation as a highly competent and influential player who made a significant contribution to developing/defining a certain style of playing. I should make it a point to give him a listen and check him out more thoroughly one of these days.
Stylistically, someone said he plays foxchases. Personally, I'm not a big fan of whooping. I mean, it's certainly a component of a particular style of playing, but subjectively, I don't find that sort of hillbilly stuff musically appealing.
Other than being aware of his reputation, I don't know enough about Deford Bailey's playing to express any independent evaluation.
He had around 3 separate styles. 1, Fox Chases,2. trains but three was probably something you'd like. He played very complex melodies, some including bridges with intense tongue slapping techniques.
as I have said he closed the grand ole opry,an african american performer-my great aunt and uncle would stay up late and listen to him blow harp and close the show knowing they had to get up and go to church sunday morn he made his mark as a great harp player
just make it a top 15 and a second 15 and everything is all right... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork "Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
