7LimitJI
594 posts
Feb 09, 2012
11:18 AM
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Following from a discussion on the Hohner WTF thread.
Here are 5 harps all in the key of C. Not played in this order
Crossover
Handmade ProHarp
MB classic
Special 20
MB deluxe
The Spec 20 and Crossover are standard OOTB the rest are tuned to 19limitJI
Which is which ? Is there even a difference ?
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The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 11:21 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
922 posts
Feb 09, 2012
11:33 AM
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Bravo!!!!
Very cool demo 7limit. I think I heard a difference, but if so,it was very,very slight. Then again, I'm, no pro that's for sure.
Maybe a difference in texture? Or is that referred to as timbre by musicians? I definitely could not tell you which was which. And I can say for sure the average non-harpnut listener would be clueless, or maybe not even be able to pick up a difference at all.
This just re-affirmed to me, spend your time on perfecting your technique...don't worry about which harp it is. I am totally swearing off the "this harp vs. that harp" discussions on this forum. You have healed me!!!!!
Would love to sound like any of those efforts.
thanks for the demo.....way cool
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 11:49 AM
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Pistolcat
150 posts
Feb 09, 2012
11:38 AM
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Great thread. I'm a "must try" guy so here is my guess. 1=MBD 2=MB 3=SP20 4=X-over and 5=proharp.
...as for the hohner WTF- thread i must say that I am here on going to buy MBD since i like the sound and comfort and it's easy to work with. The MB is just to much of a hassle..
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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timeistight
324 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:03 PM
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I can't hear any difference so I won't guess.
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chicagopsych
1 post
Feb 09, 2012
12:09 PM
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@Honkin on Bobo
I’m a complete newbie with a poor musical ear so obviously I can’t tell the difference in the sound clips. However, I don’t think that makes them all the same. Also as a newbie I can attest to how some harmonicas are far easier to play than others. I think some guys who have been playing for a long time take tone for granted because they can make any harmonica sound great. I got a couple of Spec 20s after struggling with a chepo. What a huge difference! Then my wife got me a Suzuki Promaster in C and again a huge difference. Take a random friend who has never played and have them attempt a 2 hole draw note on a hohner C harmonica and then have them attempt it on a Promaster. It is night and day. So I don’t think we can do away with the “which harmonica should I get” threads just yet : )
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hvyj
2103 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:16 PM
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@chicagopsyc: Well, yeah. There's not a Hohner made that has compression as good as a Suzuki. Not even close.
@7LimitJI: They all sound like Hohners to me. Nice, very consistent playing technique, btw.
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 12:18 PM
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isaacullah
1787 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:19 PM
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Awesome idea! I only own one MBD, no X-over, and no Pro-Harp, but I have lot's of MB's and Spec 20's, so I'll put my familiarness with their tone(s) to the test!
I could definitely hear some differences between all of them, but the first one was noticeably more compressed and cleaner, with less janglyness and less brightness. If I had to choose, I'd say that #1 was the Special 20.
The differences between the remain four were very small. Mainly it seemed that some were "rounder" than others, with more or less rasp. But still the same basic foundational tone. Number 3 seemed to me to be the one with the most raspyness and a little thinner tone, so I'm gonna say that was the original Marine Band. I think the MBD and X-over were numbers 4 and 5, but I couldn't tell you which is which. If I had to gues I'd say 4 was a Deluxe and 5 was an X-over. I'm gonna say number 2 was the pro-harp because it's the only one left, and seemed the least "familiar" sounding to me.
So, to summarize, my guesses are:
1) Spec 20
2) Pro Harp
3) Marine Band
4) Marine Band Deluxe
5) Marine Band Crossover
I'm probably totally wrong! lol!
PS., but how do we control for the Scottish brogue? :)
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7LimitJI
595 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:20 PM
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@chicagopsych
OOTB some harps play easier.
99% of the time all thats needed is the reed gap adjusted. Either raised to prevent choking or lowered to play with less breath.
Out of all the harps I've tried/played in the last 20 years only one harp, an older MS blues harp, needed more than that to get it usable.
The reeds had so much space around them,you could have caught your tongue in it!
But I practised my embossing on it, and now it plays great.
I've stuck to Marine Bands mainly because I have spare reeds, and don't mind so much sanding/sealing etc
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The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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isaacullah
1788 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:23 PM
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PPS: Anyone else find it a bit Ironic that 7limitJI's harps are almost all tuned to 19limitJI? ;P Sorry, I couldn't resist! :) Great playing, by the way...
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== I S A A C ==
View my videos on YouTube!
Visit my reverb nation page!
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chromaticblues
1177 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:23 PM
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Boy I don't think you can do this like this because it's coming through the computer, but You got me?
Number 2 & 3 sounded alittle different to me, but I think it was more you than the harps.
This is just a guess
I think they are all the same harp and were playing differently. There isn't enough difference on this end to try and figure it out.
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Honkin On Bobo
923 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:30 PM
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chicagopsych,
Hey, fair enough on the "difficulty to play" point. I can't say that when I started out, I exhaustively tried every harp...and so therefore I can't say with any authority which are easier or harder to play.
I read some advice early on which said just make sure you didn't start out with a toy (or chepo as you referred to it) and you'll be fine. I avoided the MB because of warnings regarding the swelling/warping of wood combs (figured I'd have enough to worry about without that issue). Tried Special 20s and Lee Oskars settled on SP 20s and that's where I've stayed.
But I've continually fallen into the trap of avidly reading the this vs. that harp discussions, including the always rancorous OOTB vs. custom debate. I think 7limit's demo just finally affirmed for me, what I already knew in my heart anyway, which is that, at least in my case, time/money is far better spent in improving my technique vs. obsessing over a specific harp. That really was my only point, admittedly an obvious one, but by writing it here hopefully it's a rememder to self to avoid the "gear" threads....i got way bigger fish to fry.
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7LimitJI
596 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:31 PM
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Hey Chromaticblues
Its good quality mp3 ie minimal compression,recorded on Audacity using a very nice wee Sony stereo condenser mic.
If you listen to other studio recorded music on your computer and it sounds good,then this will too.
I assure you, I used the harps listed!!
@isaac I play more Swing and 3rd pos now, so changed to 19limit. Och aye the noo !!
----------
The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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bharper
144 posts
Feb 09, 2012
1:10 PM
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My only guess is that #4 is the MBD. They all sound pretty much alike.
But I think the appeal of custom harps goes beyond tone to playability.
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Todd Parrott
836 posts
Feb 09, 2012
1:31 PM
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I think the sound quality is fine, but I think this goes along with what I said in another thread - the difference between harps is not a difference of night and day. A non-harmonica playing audience certainly can't tell the difference, and it's even tough for a harmonica-playing audience to distinguish as far as I'm concerned.
I can usually tell when someone is using a just tuned harp though.
I depend more on myself for my tone than the harp, but of course a good harp certainly helps. :)
Will be interesting to see the answers here when you post them.
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7LimitJI
597 posts
Feb 09, 2012
1:57 PM
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OK here's the list
1/ Pro Harp
2/Marine Band Classic
3/Marine Band Deluxe
4/Special 20
5/ Crossover
This is the first time I've done this, so here is my opinion.
1/Pro was smooth,full and sounded good
2/MBC Sounded a bit thin,caused I think by a semi choking draw 3 reed :o( But, still sounded good and surprisingly smooth.
3/MBD Great, with a nice rasp
4/Spec20 Smooth,but brightest sounding here.
5/XOver 2nd brightest,but still very rich.
I prefer the cover plate slot MB sound over the full/non slot.
Any of the 3 MB models will do me.
But,I'd happily gig with any of these harps.
----------
The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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robbert
43 posts
Feb 09, 2012
2:39 PM
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An interesting test, to be sure. I couldn't hear any appreciable difference between the samples, in terms of the tone.
I began with MBs an eternity ago and eventually moved to Sp 20s and L.O.s as they seemed both more comfortable and durable. When the budget was tight, and a new harp was needed, Big Rivers prevailed. Now, when I can, I replace harps with Crossovers and Session Steels. For me, with all of these brands and styles, the tone was fine.
(I don't seem to be much of a Suzuki guy, yet. I seem to wear them out more easily.)
I know my playing has changed over the years also. Partly because of trying to overbend, I've had to be much more conscious of breathe control and embouchure. This has led me into trying work on my harps, as well as get these more costly, but far better quality harmonicas.
I still only overbend in the privacy of my own home or car, but the quest has helped to improve my overall approach to playing, I think.
I find that where a Sp.20, or L.O. was fine before, now I am far more inspired by the 'handling' and responsiveness,feel, loudness and durable coverplates of a Crossover, for example. It requires more careful breathe control than a Sp. 20 due to the closer gapping, yet it can overbend pretty well ootb. It still chugs pretty well too, if you're careful.
Both the Session Steel, and the Manji are good, too.
If I were a better mechanic, I could probably modify most harps to my playing style, but now I buy the best quality I can afford.
I do think that tone is much more about the player, and what he/she is trying to accomplish. I think the sound test demonstrates this. We hear the player's expressiveness through all the samples, and the character of the tone hardly varies from sample to sample, although he may find it's easier to execute his licks on one harp over another.
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Jehosaphat
170 posts
Feb 09, 2012
2:57 PM
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I couldn't hear any real difference listening through my computer speakers
Only when i swapped to a good pair of 'phones could i hear some slight differences.But no where enough to be certain what was what.The only one i got right was the SP20 but even then i wouldn't of been game to put any money on it.
The more i hear these comparison tests,harps mikes amps etc the more i get it reconfirmed "it ain't the gear it's the player."
I paid 400$ a few years back for an Astatic with a C/M but since then i have been using a Lone Wolf Harp Break and this pedal seems to be able to set a level playing field between lotsa mikes.
Yes my astatic sounds great through it but so do a couple of no name mikes albeit with slightly different pedal settings than the C/M.
Its all food for thought,thanks for the test 19limitJi (^) Great playing there too
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kudzurunner
2986 posts
Feb 09, 2012
3:04 PM
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On first hearing through the non-optimal speakers of my MacBook, I was struck by two things:
1) much less variation in tone than I would have expected. In particular, I was listening for the Special 20 (a thinner, tinnier sound: lack of wood comb) and more brightness (Crossover: a cone-question, too). Neither difference jumped out
2) #4 sounded slightly dryer and darker to me--a 5% difference, at most. I'm guessing that that is the stock MB. But I'm really not sure. That was my "blink" response. I only listened once.
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kudzurunner
2987 posts
Feb 09, 2012
3:06 PM
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Aha! I posted my guesses above before reading all the way through the thread. So #4 is the Special 20, not the MB. $&@#(@@!
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chromaticblues
1178 posts
Feb 09, 2012
4:04 PM
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I certainly could not tell, but if you did the same test standing four feet away from me I think it would be different.
I know I can hear the difference between those harps when I play them, but it is interesting to think about what other people hear?
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billy_shines
93 posts
Feb 09, 2012
5:28 PM
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3 and 5 sound the best what are they?
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Willspear
53 posts
Feb 09, 2012
8:59 PM
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The only harp that drives me nuts sonically is lee Oskars. They play well enough but the sound is off to me.
Other people make em sound good but I just don't care for them.
They are all close enough you'd never know which for sure as you take 100 people give em all the same harp and you'll have a hundred different tones.
Amp harps and I am certain I sound the same tonally regardless of harp aside from key and tuning. Mics are more influential than the harp and even still. I sound fairly close to the same assuming I am driving the amp to a similar level with a given mic
I bet the breakdown of tone is like 75% player. 15% amp 14.99% mic .01% harp
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Steamrollin Stan
282 posts
Feb 10, 2012
2:28 AM
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I just like the riff Cameron, they all sound pretty much the same, i'de rather listen to the music than try and work out the type of harp being played, i just played it on my suzuki overdrive and although it may sound different its much of how the player plays than the ootb, or custom stuff....yo!!!
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Greyowlphotoart
864 posts
Feb 10, 2012
7:20 AM
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As a follow up to this interesting post by 7limitJl I have added another 5 harps to the mix (All gapped by me), two of which were in his original batch. All harps in C, same riff;
It's still tough to pick them although the Marine Band stands out a bit more to my ears. However although they may sound similar on a recording, they don't feel at all the same when playing. I found myself working some harps more than others in this test to produce the same intensity of sound.
I agree that the main benefit of customising would seem to be the ease in playing the instrument.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by Greyowlphotoart on Apr 05, 2013 3:32 PM
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smwoerner
35 posts
Feb 10, 2012
9:23 AM
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@ricanefan "Willspear: that adds up to 105%!"
I'm sure that's because Will give 105% when he plays :)
Either that or he just has 5% more tone available.
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isaacullah
1790 posts
Feb 10, 2012
9:57 AM
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Oh wow! I certainly didn't do well with my guesses! The only one I got right was the X-over, and it's one of the ones I just really guessed at! Also interesting that the one I really heard a noticeable difference on was the Pro Harp... I've never played a Pro Harp, and I've never really listened to one played, but it's an MS harp right? Different reed widths and lengths than the handmades... That might be what I'm hearing, and not necessarily the coverplates... It's interesting that I really couldn't pick out the sound of the Marine Band Classic, which is my main harp!!!
Okay on to GreyOwl's test (in order to further humiliate myself!). Oh man! this is hard! I definitely hear differences, but it's hard to tell which is which. Of the five harps, the only one I'm really familiar with is the Marine Band (although you saw how good I was at identifying it in the first round of tests!), and have only recently (within the last two weeks) came into possession of Golden Melody and a Delta Frost (which I believe is the same as a Harpmaster). I've never played or specifically listened to a Promaster or a Pro Harp (is that because I'm not a Pro? lol!). So anyway, with that all said, here goes:
1) Harpmaster
2) Marine Band
3) Golden Melody
4) Promaster
5) Pro Harp
I definitely had to "guess" more this time, mainly because my answers were so erroneous the first time around that my confidence is severely shaken! I'm quite interested to see how this round turns out!
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*(edited to correct some really bad spelling!)
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2012 1:34 PM
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Greyowlphotoart
865 posts
Feb 10, 2012
11:44 AM
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@ Isaac:-) Man your brave to have a second try! My banker in the original was the Marine Band and I got it........wrong.
I liked the sound of 7limitJl's Crossover best, though I've not tried one yet.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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tookatooka
2707 posts
Feb 10, 2012
1:31 PM
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@GOPA Welcome back it's been a long time. I was getting worried about you.
SORRY I'm not thread jacking. Just pleased GOPA's back.
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Greyowlphotoart
866 posts
Feb 11, 2012
1:22 AM
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Cheers Tooka.
The harps on my sample were played in the following order:
Golden Melody
Pro Harp
Marine Band 1896
Harpmaster
Promaster 350V
There are, I think, distinct tonal differences but they are not so obvious as to be easily identifiable in a blind test.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2012 9:09 AM
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isaacullah
1795 posts
Feb 11, 2012
7:18 AM
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Damn! Not a single one correct! :)
I think you are absolutely correct: there are some tonal differences, but not distinct enough to distinguish by memory. Now, what would be also interesting, if a bit more subjective, would be to do another randomized blind test with those harps, but ask people to identify the one they think sounds the "best". I'd be quite curious to see which one, if any, comes out ahead!
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== I S A A C ==
View my videos on YouTube!
Visit my reverb nation page!
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groyster1
1752 posts
Feb 11, 2012
11:27 AM
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it all sounded like the same music to me,its all about the responsiveness of the harp to the player-some are just easier to play than others
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billy_shines
94 posts
Feb 13, 2012
11:26 AM
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yeah listen to just the two the suzuki sounds louder but the marine band sounds better overall. marine band rules everything else is a waste of money.
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groyster1
1755 posts
Feb 13, 2012
11:55 AM
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pretty strong opinion there...but its your money and your opinion on how you see fit to spend it...marine bands dont play well ootb but can be tweaked to play as well as any harp IMHO
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billy_shines
95 posts
Feb 13, 2012
4:57 PM
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i meant i listened to just the two i liked the marine band and the suzuki. i wouldnt mind having some suzukis. was that a marine band straight out the box?
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Greyowlphotoart
869 posts
Feb 14, 2012
9:07 AM
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@Billy_shines I did a little gapping on all the harps.
It's strange but the Golden Melody and the Marine Band sounded quite a bit different to the others when playing but not so much on the recording and the Hohner Proharp didn't sound that great when playing but came out well on the recording??
@ Isaac Yes, that would be a worthwhile exercise.
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(°,°)
/)_)
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2012 9:11 AM
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