Last week I asked for crit feedback to a video I posted. I got lots of excellent advice and discovered that I'd gained some bad habits which I'm trying to correct.
One concern was my music didn't sound bluesy enough for me and it turned out that some of you could hear what I couldn't. My 3 draw needed work and I wasn't really using the blues scale effectively. I know I used to rely on 5 blow rather a lot and I'm finding it hard not to use it. I'm trying to stick to the blues scale that Adam suggests in his video No 14. -2 -3' 4 -4'' -4 -5 6
Am I doing the right thing in using 5 blow just as a quick passing note and not to use it too often or do you just not use it at all unless it's absolutely necessary.
I will take for granted that someone will right a longer post explaining the theory (if not, I can), but the 5 blow is a great note over the I and IV of a typical blues progression. If the song is minor, it is NOT a good note to play over the I.
While not a blue note, it is a totally legit note to play. Treat it like playing the 3 draw unbent...use it, but don't rely heavily on it.
When I play blues, I just use the Mixolydian but play 3' instead of 3". The 4' is more of an embellishment in my mind than its own note. I know that isn't technically correct, but it is how I visualize it.
I'm right alongside you there tooka. Too much 5 blow in my playing especially when TB:ing... Of course its one of the chord notes in IV so if you just play along with the bassline your gonna honk it some and sound ok. Try getting some slow blues on when you explore the blues scale. Blow 5 sound a bit more off then, warning you away :). As harpninja I have thought of 4' as a note you wail into and not really play "alone" but it sounds cool and bluesy to do an ascending scale but skipping the 4 draw natural. That jump from 4' to 5 draw is a bluesy interval for sure.... imho. But I don't know anything so. ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Same problem with me: I have to work hard to avoid the 5 blow and 2 blow. Rick Estrin gave some good advice on his DVD - he was talking about how to structure a solo and keep things interesting for the listener rather than on particular notes, but it helps me with the 2 blow/5 blow thing when I remember it. He said that one way to surprise the listener is to play one chorus deliberately sweet (probably not the words he used, but you know what I mean: major-sounding) and then to play the next really emphasising the blues scale (avoiding 2 and 5 blow). Thinking of it like this - as a deliberate choice - seems to help.
I've thought about doing a harmonica chart showing what notes to play on each chord, but beyond 'the notes in the chord' I'm not sure. I know you can play notes that aren't in the chord, but I don't know all the rules for when it will sound good.
Thanks for the responses so far. I'm pleased I'm not alone with this. jodans thrown another grenade into the mix with 2 blow, damn another one. I like 2 blow, it gets me out of so many holes at the low end.
Ronnie Shellist did a video that helped me. It's on You Tube, and it's entitled Cross harp jam with no blow notes. He demonstrates, just as in illustration, playing all draw notes. I practiced in this vein for a couple of weeks, and it eliminated my dependence on blow notes, although, of course, I use them judiciously as needed.
Thanks for asking the question Tooka, I have much the same problem. I can learn various riffs which is fine and I repeatedly practice the blues scale however as soon as I start to improvise I start playing the unbent 3 all the time like a bad habit and is just way too bright to sound bluesy.
All the tips provided are giving me plenty to work on!
The 2 or 5 blow is often used as a passing tone when playing certain blues. A good rule of thumb is if the tune is heavy on the pentatonic side then ride that scale to the bank utlilizing the 2 or 5 blow with no problem. If the tune is a dirtier kinda blues- use the 2 or/5 blow to get to the more bluesy notes. If the tune is a mixture - kinda jumpy and swingin then the skies the limit, shake all those notes up and let em rip. Hope I made a little bit sence for ya Tooka?
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2012 3:23 PM
Think about how light or how dark you want your blues to sound.
If you want just that hint of darkness try major scales with just the tiniest seasoning of blue notes played at the most effective times. It's important that the blue notes be well intonated though. Not in a rigid way, but individually sharpened or flattened a fraction to create the desired sound that you wish to express.
If you want to get darker start to add more blues scale based licks with less major pentatonic.
If you want to go completely dark: blues scale or minor scales only
The higher the ratio in one direction to the other the lighter or darker your blues.
There are many, many shades in between. Make it as bluesy as you want.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2012 4:25 PM
There is the blues scale. In 2nd it has a 5 draw There is the major pentatonic scale, in 2nd it has a 5 blow.
choose one or the other.
I listen to the tune, then play a 5 draw, If it sound good, I use the blues scale and stay away from the 5 blow. If the 5 draw sounds bad, I play the major pentatonic, and stay away from the 5 draw. The 2 scales have a different flavor. Use the right flavor for the tune. (I do not put bacon bits on ice cream)
Yes there are exceptions, but what I suggest is a good guidline for learning.
By the way, The 2 draw bent and the 3 blow are an octave down, and I follow the same rule there too. ---------- HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012 theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
@ Tookatooka My condolences - I had the same problem for many years, I'd often play blow-draw patterns that used the 5 blow way too much and killed a lot of the blues feeling, but didn't understand at the time what I was doing wrong. It's taken a lot of effort to get out of the habit and only use the 5 blow when it works musically.
When I give pointers to beginner harp players I often get them to play 6b 5d 5b then 6b 5d 4d for them to understand the huge difference this makes to the riff.
Of course as others have pointed out the 5 blow (major 6th) is a useful note for more sophisticated jump or jazz-influenced blues, but usually not so good for delta or straight ahead Muddy/Wolf styled Chicago blues
Blow 5 is the major 6th in second position, the major 2d in third position, the perfect 5th in fourth position, the root in fifth position and the major 7th in twelfth position. I assume you are talking about second position.
No matter what position you are playing in the way to break out of playing unhelpful patterns is to tab out scales and PRACTICE playing those scales up and down. That way, if you fall into a pattern it will be a scale pattern you've learned.
Now, a lot of blues players use blow 5, especially Butterfield. Here's a little secret: If you are playing a C harp in G, blow 5 is E which is the root note of the relative minor. The breath pattern for the minor pentatonic scale (which is very close to the blues scale) in E minor is IDENTICAL to the breath pattern for the major pentatonic scale in G. SO, you can actually blow blues in the relative minor using blow 5 for root by playing the major pentatonic scale of the second position key and it will sound pretty good if you put in in the right spots.
Confused??? Don't be. The moral of the story is that whether blow 5 sounds good or not so good depends on what other notes you play around it and in relation to it. This gets back to LEARNING AND PRACTICING SCALES.
Learning scales breaks you out of things like playing a blow-draw-blow pattern when you are stuck for ideas and also helps you develop control over what you are playing. After all, harmonica IS a musical instrument with NOTES, not just holes. It's NOT HELPFUL to think of this note as "blow 5." It is a particular degree of the scale depending on what position you are playing in.
Now, this may be TMI, but to elaborate, if you add the flat 3rd to the major pentatonic scale, it becomes what some musicians call the "major blues scale" which happens to correspond EXACTLY to the blues scale of the relative minor key, just starting on a different note (blow 2, an octave below blow 5). So, there's a lot you can do IF you know how to play these scales, which, btw, ain't hard to learn. Knowing WHEN to use which scales in relation to what chords is a different and more difficult thing to figure out.
Now, it is basic to the blues idiom that you use the blues scale of the key you are in against all chords. BUT, if you ONLY play blues scale tones, your playing will be very dull and uninteresting. You can't be a slave to the blues scale 100% of the time when you are playing blues.
The easy thing about learning these relationships on a Richter tuned diatonic harmonica is that the patterns REMAIN THE SAME on each harmonica in every key. Learn this stuff on one harp and it works on any harp in all 12 keys.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 5:16 AM
I've always thought of the 5 blow as a "sweet" note. (I'm talking second position, obviously.) But it's also part of a devil's interval--a diminished fifth--when juxtaposed with the blue third. It's much easier to hear this in third position: 3 draw followed by 5 draw: major sixth followed by flat third. So it takes some of its meaning in context.
Also, a chord that has BOTH the major sixth and flat seventh, often in different octaves, is the 13th chord: a seventh chord with a 6th (i.e., 13th) above. That's a bittersweet jazz chord, and one I love. So a 5 blow, played over a Idom7 chord, creates that 13th-y feeling. Neither bitter nor sweet, but bittersweet--and therefore useful for the blues.
Now, the 5 blow played over pure, uninflected major chords (I, IV), is merely sweet. It's not bittersweet. The 5 draw in that same context is a whole 'nother thing. It's somewhat incongruous. It's like the beginning blues harp player who thinks that since the 5 draw is part of the "blues scale," quote unquote, you're supposed to play that note in any and all contexts. But you're not.
Finally, there are many different contexts--rock, jazz, blues--where you want to play the 5b and 5d in sequence. It's a basic boogie-woogie and rock-and-roll motif. "Bonie Maronie." "Juke" works an interesting variation on this principle in bars 9 and 10.
I mainly follow the 5-blow with the bent 3-draw then the 2-draw. I use that trick quite a lot, but I think it still works. ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000874537399
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 5:51 AM
This is interesting. I have suffered from the reverse problem. When I first learnt I stuck closely to the blues scale. Part of this I think is due to using the 4/5 warble a lot (Actually practising this may help you get used to playing the 5 draw).
I now play with several folk/bluegrass type bands and have had to learn to use the 5 blow more.
Thanks once again for the replies, advice and the sample (jodan). It's going to take me a while to digest it all.
@hvyj. Thanks for your explanation also. I've copied your bit (along with other snippetts) and created a file with all this useful info in. I will need to dip into it quite a lot so that what I don't understand now, will be clearer later.
It's comforting to know I'm not alone but bit by bit I feel I'm getting somewhere.
