Harp2swing
25 posts
Jan 12, 2012
3:14 PM
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Hey Joe, can you please elaborate on this quote of yours_ "I play a shure58 through a fender reissue blues deville with one of the power tubes pulled out (to get the good sound out of it....a Bill Clarke tip)."
ie. what kind of sound difference does it produce and what happens to amp vol etc. I'm intrigued.
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Blocker
115 posts
Jan 12, 2012
6:07 PM
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Sorry Harp2swing, Joelee requested in his own unique manner to be removed as a member of MBH sometime ago.
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shanester
463 posts
Jan 12, 2012
6:10 PM
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I was wondering where that ol' salty dog went!
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Shane,
"The Possum Whisperer"
Shane's Cloud
1shanester
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5F6H
1061 posts
Jan 13, 2012
1:33 AM
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@ Harp2Swing,
Removing a power tube has been a common modification for "FIXED BIAS" amps for decades, especially for recording. DO NOT ever run a "cathode biased" amp with less than the recommended number of power tubes, as you will kill the tubes left in the amp - if you don't know whether your amp is "fixed" or "cathode" biased ask the manufacturer...or ask me.
I don't recommend doing this in tolex Princetons or Deluxes, unless you replace 2x6V6 with 1x6L6/5881, you may also have to rebias.
What happens, is your 2 output tube, "push-pull" amp(each tube amplifies 180 degreees of the waveform, imagine 2 equal sized kids on a see-saw?) becomes a single output tube, "single ended" amp (now imagine one of those kids having to push his seat up & down on his own, on the see saw), like a champ. This increases fuzzy distortion and reduces output (10-12W max)...though the reduced output may not be enough to make the amp ungiggable...in fact, sometimes a tube will fall out of an amp & a player will notice the change in tone, but not necessarily a significant drop in volume.
The mod has been attributed to many players over the years, but predates most that are mentioned (it's a principle that goes back to the dawn of tube amps). Victoria include a similar mod on a switch for harp players (they call it the "Piazza" mod) who buy their 45410, on request. Other harp amps, like the Kendrick TC35 (& even some guitar amps) have controls to create a similar effect, without pulling any tubes out.
Some electronics engineers point out that this can cause magnetisation of the output transformer, if this is a concern you can alternate which tube it is that you pull out. Otherwise, in just about any 6L6/5881 powered amp, there is no risk of damage to the amp.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
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Littoral
468 posts
Jan 13, 2012
3:09 AM
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5FGH, Excellent info. Piazza told me about this "way back". I was paranoid about doing it but since I've been doing it for 20 years and my 60 Concert hasn't gone blind from the very nasty things it does I'll keep on doing it.
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Michael Rubin
398 posts
Jan 13, 2012
5:03 AM
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5f6h Can I do it on a Fender 59 bassman reissue?
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Michael Rubin
399 posts
Jan 13, 2012
9:25 AM
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And you are talking about one of the big tubes, right? Please excuse my ignorance, there are no mechanical devices on my planet.
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9000
98 posts
Jan 13, 2012
9:39 AM
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@Littoral: Thanks for doing the research. I'm also "paranoid" about doing it to my Brown Concert. How would you describe the difference from the stock set up. Thanks, Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
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timeistight
292 posts
Jan 13, 2012
11:43 AM
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@Michael: One of the two large tubes that look the same (the power tubes). If your amp looks like this:
the power tubes are the second and third tubes from the left. Don't remove the largish tube furthest to the left; that's part of the power supply.
@9000: As 5F6H wrote:What happens, is your 2 output tube, "push-pull" amp(each tube amplifies 180 degreees of the waveform, imagine 2 equal sized kids on a see-saw?) becomes a single output tube, "single ended" amp (now imagine one of those kids having to push his seat up & down on his own, on the see saw), like a champ. This increases fuzzy distortion and reduces output (10-12W max)...though the reduced output may not be enough to make the amp ungiggable...in fact, sometimes a tube will fall out of an amp & a player will notice the change in tone, but not necessarily a significant drop in volume.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2012 11:54 AM
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5F6H
1063 posts
Jan 13, 2012
11:59 AM
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Hi Michael,
Looking at the back of the amp, from Left to Right, you have...
The rectifier, then 2x6L6/5881 large power tubes, then 3 small 12A#7 tubes under aluminium covers.
It is one of the 6L6/5881 large tubes (either one will have the desired affect, rotate which tube you pull if you do it often) that you pull. Techs tend to "number" the tubes in order of signal amplification, from input from the instrument to the rectifier...so using this method, we count from Right to Left for the RI Bassman, so you would pull V4 or V5 ("V1" is farthest right in your amp, under the input jacks).
Simply pulling the tube is an attractive proposition as you just need to be able to identify the power tubes to do it. However, a reasonable tech can add switches or controls to effect the same change without having to pull or replace tubes, or just unbalance the tubes a little...so the amp can be returned to factory tone & performance in an instant.
Whilst running one power tube in a fixed bias amp won't damage it (if the previous comments are taken on board) and is easy to do, it's not my preferred route to a warmer tone...maybe for recording, or a very quiet coffe house gig? But you can easily replace the tube if you don't like the result. Turn off the amp before removing/replacing tubes, let the amp cool for a good 15 minutes to avoid burning yourself on hot tubes. Always take note of the tube's "keyway" when fitting/removing tubes, they are oriented in a very specific manner. Rock GENTLY in a rotating motion to work them loose if they are very tight in the amp.
Neither Bill Clarke, nor Rod Piazza appear to have used this trick in more recent times.
Jay, you will have virtually no clean headroom and a constantly fuzzy tone.
EDIT: Thanks Timeistight - Simulpost!
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www.myspace.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2012 12:01 PM
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Littoral
470 posts
Jan 13, 2012
1:05 PM
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5F6H: " Jay, you will have virtually no clean headroom and a constantly fuzzy tone."
hmm, my experience is certainly not that.
Maybe this will be easier if Jay tries it and reports back.
Me, I've been thinking about going back to both power tubes and plan to experiment awhile next week with my new delay.
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timeistight
293 posts
Jan 13, 2012
1:51 PM
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Well, 10 to 12 watts is still a fair amount of power, in the Princeton range, just not compared to the 40 to 50 watts these amps produce with both tubes. It'll still be a loud amp at home or in a small club.
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waltertore
1850 posts
Jan 13, 2012
4:56 PM
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I remember a black face pro reverb I had started getting real distorted at lower volumes during a tour. We were broke and I figured I would buy new tubes when we got home at some point. Then one night I heard something rattling in the amp as I carried it out. One of the tubes fell out. I plugged it back in and it was back to normal. I don't need that kind of wattage anymore. Today I have princeton reverb and use a THD Hotplate so I can get the tones I want at any volume. For my recordings I run it at the volume of a very quiet speaking voice. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2012 4:58 PM
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Diggsblues
1144 posts
Jan 13, 2012
6:57 PM
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The last thing Joelee told me was he hated me and to burn in hell. LOL
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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nacoran
5105 posts
Jan 14, 2012
12:38 AM
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Diggs, yeah, that sounds like Joelee... a bucket full of crazy with a side order of mean. A little paranoia in the soup too, for flavor.
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Nate
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thorvaldsen76
135 posts
Jan 14, 2012
2:00 AM
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I miss having Joelee around! I really enjoyed reading his posts. Guys that have lived a life on the road and tells stories about it is priceless for me. So he was a bit mean from time to time. That's the blues. I don't think he was worse than the "sweet,kind and bighearted" Buddha that some of the members here have such great thoughts about..
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waltertore
1854 posts
Jan 14, 2012
7:08 AM
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I miss him. If you can play he will be nothing but a respectful soul to be around but if you couldn't he would let you know especially if you thought highly of your stuff. For all the younger players he is quite typical of how most of us learned prior to this test tube internet harp player phenonmenon where people declare themselves greats. Up to recently you had to prove that by playing night after night to a few people and that was as far as your greatness radiated to the world. After a few decades of that you might get somewhat known to the general music scene. I never heard of Buddha until I came on this forum. Yet he regularly claimed to the greatest harp player of all time. If so why didn't he even have a decent recording to share? His stuff was terrible sounding(handheld camera recordings that plauge youtube) and all the ones I listened to were cover songs. If he was so great why didn't a record label or somebody like me with decent home studio jump on him? Yet he regularly put down just about anyone that threatened him and it seemed you either worshiped him or were a threat....... SPAH was another thing I never heard of. He and SPAH were never a part of the school that I learned in. I have never been to a SPAH. I would enjoy being there as a performer but doubt I will go to one as a spectator unless it comes to a town real close- like columbus ohio. Being in clubs with the blues greats of yesterday was an experience I doubt SPAH would ever top. I am glad I had to earn my wings of approval from those bluesmen. I am glad it is here because obviously it is a great thing for many people. IMO we should be represented across the spectum with the living history of music. Joe Lee is one of the last of his era and I continue to communicate with him because of this. Once these guys are gone it will just be youtube videos of them, and most only have ones of their last years because the technology wasn't there to make videos. People on the net think of me as strickly a 1 man band. I have been one for the past 10 years or so, but for almost 30 years I was with real musicians but there was little to no documention.
The Joe Lee school is the roots. They learned their craft on the street corners, back alleys, funky clubs where playing bad could get you killed. White people were not to be found within miles of where you often played. You had to learn how to be with all kinds. Now you post videos and become like Christle- millions of view and no gigs. I am of the Joe Lee school that hangs around here more often than not to just keep the root somewhat alive.
I write the above stuff not to start an arguement about the greatness of Buddha or SPAH but to honestly share that guys from my school never heard of them. Having been on the circut with the top recording artists, legends of the roots music world, and then having a guy like Buddha blast me and others on that circut was quite a shock as to how this internet can create legends in their own minds via posting videos. Maybe this will give younger players and ones that haven't ventured out of their home to play much an insight into a guy like Joe Lee? This new info age is eliminating and changing how history is recorded/viewed faster than ever. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2012 7:46 AM
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Littoral
471 posts
Jan 14, 2012
10:31 AM
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waltertore, I appreciate your comments, and read them all. You get a little esoteric, even for me, but have at it.
As to old school and the internet, yea, the information age has the effect of diluting a lot of authenticity. The hit on live music has been tough. A few counters though, youtube exploration is amazing fun and allows some access to watching people and shows I never saw. Old school? I didn't know about Dennis Gruenling before finding him on-line.
Live music? The Black Keys are crazy popular and I think it is, in part, because they play old school soul stripped down and unprocessed. It's real and people feel it, love it, and I think it represents what they rarely get elsewhere.
I think live music will have a resurgence that is an organic reaction to the sterility of the web.
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nacoran
5106 posts
Jan 14, 2012
11:30 AM
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Joe Lee left because he couldn't tolerate being around people with different opinions than him on topics that had nothing to do with harmonica. My default position towards everyone, whether they can play or not, is respect. If you can play harmonica, or if you can't, I try to respect people. That's different than respect for someone as a player. Walter, you and Joe Lee may have gone through some of the same experiences in the old school, but it seems to have made you both two very different people. While I occasionally disagree with you over road signs on the road to harp playing I always respect you. I respect your playing because you are one badass player, and I respect you as a person because you treat other people well. All I can say about Joe Lee is I respect his playing.
As for Buddha, well, that boy could sure play. There were times he drove me crazy, but when he died I felt like I'd been kicked in the stomach, even although my last exchange with him was brutal and angry.
I probably should have kept my mouth shut on the topic of Joe Lee for the sake of peace (I was almost out, Diggs, you pulled me back in by reminding me it wasn't just the admins he gave problems to), but his parting shots made it clear he never gave a lot of people any respect as human beings, so I'm not inclined to return the favor. It also gives me guilty pleasure to know that as much as he hates the idea that the name Joe Lee Bush could come up in a harmonica Google search linked to people like 'us' it can happen. :)
I now will attempt to return to my normal pleasant disposition. :)
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Nate
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waltertore
1855 posts
Jan 14, 2012
11:53 AM
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nacoran: I didn't follow any of the stuff you mentioned. I don't follow non music threads. I only knew Joe Lee as I did from the similar playing backround experiences we have. Thanks for the compliment. I have been working on my issues for 35 years. It is easy to get bogged down in this life with stupid stuff. thanks for your post! Walter
I am off to record some with a 50+ year old marine band full concert harp!
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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Blown Out Reed
284 posts
Jan 14, 2012
1:06 PM
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