We've all seen the threads featuring a really, really awful harp player on stage or met one in person. They really thought they played well, and did not see their shortcomings. They may even have expressed their "superiority" over other players.
"Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will: 1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill; 2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others; 3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy; 4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve."
I think we all suffer lightly of this bias at one time or other during our playing, where we feel like we are playing great when learning new things, but then realize how much some element really sucks. The trick for successful harp learning is then to acknowledge your lack of skill in many areas, record yourself and be critical, and of course seek new areas to learn.
In fact, this effect is probably responsible for some of the harp's rep. Some people think it's easy to hit all the notes - it's a simple instrument right?!
I guess I'll have to learn how to use my new video camera after all. But will it matter? I think still photos make me look fat.
I have a T-shirt that says "I beat anorexia." Maybe I need another T-shirt.
Thanks for ruining one of the few days I have left. When I'm playing my last licks in an oxygen tent, I'll remember this day and think, "I coulda been a contender."
Philippe, I saw a statistic that said 60% of people think they are better looking than average- of course I've heard the opposite end of that too... there is a joke about one of the presidents being mortified to find out 1/2 the students in America scored below average on standardized tests. He said it was totally unacceptable and needed to change.
Cristal, not with your harp playing for sure! I sometimes don't think you realize how awesome you are. :)
Closet harper for 4 years now, i think i'm aware of the effect, do not kid yourself into thinking your better than you are, just because your buddies or aunty Beryl say your good at playing the 'mouth organ' thing, But i am good looking, btw.
We just call him Gus. I used to do a lot of bicycling. One 2 day event I rode in every year was very popular, around 6,000 riders. A lot of hills, 50 miles each day. Not a race, but a fun ride with sag stops and lunch breaks. There was a wide variety of skill levels from top tier racers to "Why did I think I could do this?". Basically, as I rode along, I was always passing people and always being passed. That's how I see blues jams. There is always someone better, and others who are still learning. Unfortunately, too many players who can blow and draw greatly overestimate their ability. Someone got a grant to study this? Cool.
Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2012 11:44 AM
Actually, I have seen and read about this phenomenon. I've seen it in athletes, performers and even surgeons. Back in the eighties I had occasion to assist a veterinary surgeon in scores of operations. Every time he would put an animal under before a surgery, he would have feelings of inadequacy, totally unfounded. He expressed these to me as we were best friends. Over the past 25 years I've seen hundreds (thousands?)of doctors in depositions, some fairly regularly. During off-the-record lulls I have brought this up a few times, and it has been confirmed as fairly common among professional.
Any delusional competence that I may have mustered up during my wood shedding is quickly whittled down to size when I witness the reality of a live performance from a Pro who plays the harp for a living, wow are they good, back to the shed lol!!!
Philippe! That is my favorite word! Its a very appropriate term for many beginning harp players. I certainly was 30 years ago, showing up to shows with a handful of harps begging to get on stage. Alcohol certainly exacerbates they "syndrome".
Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2012 6:51 AM
Very intestinsg... the "Dunning-Kruger Effect" effects way more than harp players... it is running rampant in the corporate and political worlds these days!
I see it constantly, and look forward to escaping it all someday... I can pretty much deal with any harp player, and quickly recognize their talent or lack of...
This is fascinating. I have been aware that the profound ignorance of the truly incompetent lies not in what they don't know, but in that they don't know what they don't know. But I didn't have a clue that this phenomenon had been empirically verified by Nobel winning psychologists.
A guest at our weekly jam remarked to me afterwards that he thought my playing was innovative. We shared a laugh about the fact that he was voicing no opinion about the quality of my playing. :)
Nope. A guest player. We have a closed jam and he was invited by one of the guys that knew him. Pretty decent player who laid back and only took a few lead breaks when we cued him up.
BTW, I've seen remarks from guys on here about how good the pros are; some of those guys are just remarkably gifted, but there's no substitution for gigging alot. I don't do it anymore, but when I was playin' 4-5 nights/wk., I jus' got better by osmosis. Anybody who wants to feel better about their playin' needs to play alot..any way they can. Practice,jam,gig. If you got any ability, you'll get better enough to quit worrying about how good you are.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2012 3:18 PM
I met a harp player named Bob Dunninkroger once. Hes about 65, plays the same riff over and over and over and swears up and down hes the greatest man alive. I had no clue they wrote a book about the guy. ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork "Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
Yeah, you don't know what you don't know. All you can perceive is that someone else seems to know 'something' you don't.
Some react to this by seeking a teacher. Some would rather not think about it. Some become envious, and some of the envious become antagonistic. Some go directly to antagonism. Some go into denial and claim they know better than the person who knows something else.
A lot of trouble about it is not being able to 'own' some ignorance. Like it's a perverse form of perfectionism.
The remarkably gifted are those who can accept their state of ignorance and want to know more and work toward it, and work much harder than the wannabe ever will.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2012 6:57 PM
If I understand the effect, it may be exacerbated in the harp community by the fact that most of the players are males and we operate very much by aspiring to be the Alpha dog. Thus, even if we aren't the biggest, meanest dog, we still have have to pretend/act as if we are. It reminds me of the saying, "Others see us the way we are, but we see ourselves the way we want to be."
rbeetsme said "Basically, as I rode along, I was always passing people and always being passed."
Boy ain't that the truth. I also think the following is true - The better you get, the better you're able to hear and appreciate players better than yourself.
Oh - and my guitar player and I were talking about a fellow we both know who definitely suffers from this syndrome - he is a singer, doesn't play an instrument, can't sing on key, match a note, hear changes or pick out a melody. Vince said "Well, he's certainly unencumbered by talent."
Vince said "Well, he's certainly unencumbered by talent." That's really good, ha ha. It's kinda like "He's not going to run out of potential any time soon."
I've played harp since about 1967 and I've been at clubs listening to harpers where guys have occasionally said stuff like, " you run circles around this guy", and I've usually told 'em that a gigging harper would have to be pretty bad for me not to be able to pick something up off him. There's always a little something to learn, if not ALOT of something. It's a beautiful thang.
I've heard plenty of people whom I consider play better than me and also those who probably don't. But of course I can only judge from my perspective. Something else which clearly influences me is a particular style. Some I like more than others which doesn't make for poor playing, just something which does not appeal to me. I find it interesting to observe players at different levels and it's pretty obvious the ones who are just beginning their journey. As we develop our skills, not only does the repertoire increase but the overall sound production changes. Muscles develop without giving them conscious thought which gives you your own particular sound. OK, I'm ranting. I'll stop now.
Cristabell, you have Multiple Schlerosis? Can you say that playing music has been a help or a hindrance to your treatment? Any limitation for playing harmonica?
I don't want to answer that question (even if those lines are one). I've discretely said it ONCE, and I don't want to go back on that subject.....Can we please move on on the harmonica subject? _________________________________________
Daughter of Hannibal Lecter, also known as "Christelle Berthon"
What a downer. The D-K effect (<-- you saw it here first) basicly says that if you got any self-confidence you're a hack but if you got self doubt you're probably competent or good. How-about that for a catch 22? Sometimes ignorance is bliss, if you have knowledge about the D-K effect (<-- again!) you will oscillate between the two and that will really put you off your game.
Sorry Cristel, I have friends who are music therapists and the subject interests me. I also work at an assisted living facility, residents occasionally ask me if they can play an instrument with their various limitations. I am often accused of being afflicted with BS, but I've learned to live with it!
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2012 11:36 AM
Annie Raines: blues player only, with regular bends. I love her voice and the licks she plays
Big Mama is wonderful: but she's dead
MICHAL (and not Michelle, when you want to play clever, be clever and mention correctly the name of the people you think you know) Adler is a chromatic harmonica player, so NOT the same instrument at all
The chinese are playing the harmonica in classroom since this is the initiation instrument to the music and they're not playing jazz, blues...
Natacha Seara is doing good and IS with Rachelle Plas a MODERN (read my lips rbeetsme) a MODERN female harmonica player since they play with overbends as well.
I'll please the memory of Chris Michalek when he was saying to me to accept my rank and my position as a musician, now I've the prevention of being 1) a modern player, and 2) to play things that others can't with my OWN way of playing it....I don't play with licks and I put myself in danger all the time when I play the impros
But MOST importantly I'M NEVER completely happy of what I play and I search constantly to improve and to go where I want to go WITHOUT THINKING THAT I PLAY HARMONICA BUT AN INSTRUMENT....
I don't care ANYMORE to have the recognition of you, Adam Gussow, or anyone, I just know that major players love the way I play, for the others that's not my problem if they mix music and personal vendetta
_________________________________________
Daughter of Hannibal Lecter, also known as "Christelle Berthon"
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2012 7:13 PM
In my teaching, I've drawn a horizontal line on the blackboard. At the left end, I write in "GUS", who is that terrible harmonica player, usually drunk and bearded , that pulls out his harmonica and plays along with the band, even if it is in the wrong key.
At the right end, I write "Howard Levy" and draw a picture of an alien, as Howard is NOTOFTHISEARTH.
All the rest of us mortals can be portrayed as a small vertical line intersecting this horizontal line at different places. For instance, Kim Wilson's vertical line will be towards the right end while the beginners will find their hash mark towards the left end.
You will notice that no matter where your vertical line falls, there are other vertical lines to the left of you (being not as good as you play) and others to the right of you (playing better than you).
Now, if you don't look at the whole horizontal line (From Gus to Alien), but only see a smaller section, you will always find vertical hash marks to your left and right, even as you progress at your talent and start to see your vertical hash mark move towards the right end of the total spectrum.
The reality that emerges is that no matter how you play, there will always be those that are better and worse.
The trick is to learn to play exactly where you are on this line with pride - the trap some fall into with their egos is that they try to pretend they are further along towards the right in order to "compete".
Once one "gets it", it removes a lot of ego and apprehension that may be simmering below the surface, allowing one to relax and flow with the universe. The result is better playing overall.
Great post Greg. I never could understand how someone like the above guy didn't realize that he was not ready to be on a nationally broadcasted TV show displaying his musical skill (or lack thereof). When I first read this thread, didn't put it together with Idol in any way, but you're absolutely right, the opening episodes of that show are chock full of stark examples of the D-K effect.
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2012 10:21 AM
"Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will: 1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill; 2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others; 3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy; 4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve."
My thoughts:
1. I think most people do this about any and everything. Flexing that part of the Ego often preys on others. The objective nature of music, society, and reality TV literally breed and feed off this. The interesting part about this is that the people we should really care less about their opinions are our peers. Being a popular harmonica player with harmonica players isn't nearly as wise a business model as being popular with non-harmonica players (or the masses).
I bet John Popper laughs to the bank all the time knowing that by ignoring what his peers thought was the right way to do harmonica made him a millionaire. You see the same thing in blues circles all the time. It is a clique and eventually boxes itself up.
2. THIS is the most important point in this thread, for me. It is ridculously easy for people to build each other up and tear them down. This is the point I see most made by others on music forums. The rebuttal being that you don't have to be that good to have an opinion, etc.
A good example of this in the harmonica world is how some players are worshiped on some sites and then loathed on others. Let's face it, maybe 1-10% of harmonica players are really in that upper tier of playing. The rest just occupy certain niches and are often very limited in the grand scheme of things. Many of us think that we are that 1-10%, but I haven't seen those people post here, with the exception of one and I am not totally sold that he is really going to reach Howard like status. Granted, I've seen several amazing niche players, people I would spend money on hearing way before some of the 1-10%'ers.
Hell, that 1-10% of players still get bashed too. Howard can't play blues, right? Seriously, I can't think of a single player that couldn't be torn to shreds for some inadequacy, LW included. I guess the point is that there is no perfection to begin with, so pretending there is such is doomed from the start. Of course we could all be better!
My favorite part about this? A hack guitar player in a top 40 country band would outdraw any harmonica player. Often times, being good has nothing to do with being popular. That makes discussing this effect in regards to harmonica all the more entertaining to me.
3. Oh, I love this! SPAH is a great place to see this in action. I remember a guy in '10 trying to argue with Chris Michalek about how to play something. He wasn't even to the stage of Gus yet. I also think that this is a fatal flaw of forums like this. We read things and believe things from people that have zero credibility. I am not saying a lesser player can't contribute, but that we often have no perspective of where advice is coming from. This is the exact reason I dislike anonymous posters and feel that things like links should be included in signatures.
4. The odds of this are not in the favor of those fighting the good fight. Rarely, if ever, do I see this happen in the real world. People just take their ball and go home. Adults are very very stubborn and ignorant. We tend to get defensive rather than to think rationally. In most instances, if you examine the arguments on this forum, you would see that 1.) there are a lot of times where there really is a right and wrong and 2.) the person who doesn't get it is never going to see that.
You have two type of people in the world...those with an open mindset and those with a closed. A lot of musician types try to act like they have an open mindset, when in fact they don't. IMO, I have seen more than enough direct evidence that having an open mindset is the way to go if you want to be happy and have a chance at success.
A closed mindset is a great way to be like John McEnroe, Tiger Woods, or Andre Agassi...you end up being great and unhappy...that almost never ends well.
I will take average and happy over great and unhappy every time.
I think what scares me most about this can be reflected in a comment Winslow Yexra once made on Harp-L in reply to a post I made about Jason Ricci. I am paraphrasing, but he said something along the lines that you shouldn't get psyched out by a guy like that. There are things that you do that are better than him and there are things that you can do that he can't.
What Winslow didn't state was whether or not those things were good things, lol. So yes, SPAH '10 guy, your mullet and hand vibrato are better than Chris's. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2012 10:03 AM
Wait, we can get judged for the quality of our mullet? I have some great old pictures, circa maybe 1988 that I'll stack against anyone's mullet. :)
As for authority, yeah, you are right. If someone asks me what harmonica to play, I try to go over the pros and cons based on what I know, but I'm no pro. If I'm talking about a harp I don't know I'll say 'this is what I've heard but I haven't played it'. If someone posts a video I try to listen for what I can, but at a certain point I can't offer anything better than 'nice job'. I'm a guy who plays in a band. I'm under no illusions that I'm a stellar player, but if I know a tune and have practiced it a few times I can usually play something that sounds okay, at least to non-harpers. I try not to sell myself as anything more than that, even if the shear number of posts next to my name suggest some sort of authority. :)
There is a point though where there is a really huge disconnect that's almost pathological. The guy in Greg's post is a great example. I've seen them at open mics too. I know a guy who can play any weird chord you name on a guitar, who knows enough musical theory to know how to build a good chord structure, who can look at his tuner tell if his guitar is in or out and fix it. Then he starts playing and he can't sing in the key he's in (and clearly doesn't know he's not in that key) and he doesn't notice his guitar has gone out of key. He self-published a book of poetry and had a release party. His poetry is even worse than his singing! I've seen him drive every single person out of a room at an open mic more than once, but he thinks he's amazing. Maybe it's a happier way to go through life, but it sure can inflict some suffering on the rest of us.
Philippe/quote. "We've all seen the threads featuring a really, really awful harp player on stage or met one in person. They really thought they played well, and did not see their shortcomings. They may even have expressed their "superiority" over other players."
Virtually everyone I have rubbed shoulders with are genuinely humble & helpful & understand their shortcomings as players. I have only ever come across one individual who was so up himself & full of S**t. Surprisingly this person was a very good player and by far the best on that day. But, not a nice person & I would think overall extremely damaging to the brand 'Harmonica'.
I wouldn't take much notice with the twaddle spewed out by academics like Duning & Kruger. A waste of time and money which really proves nothing. It's as they see it and of course they are the publicly funded experts who are vastly superior to us mere mortals.
What or who is really awful to some can be considered very good by others. I think one should always accept praise when given genuinely ie don't put oneself down or apologise. But of course adopting the opposite approach & rejecting any criticism is dumb. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
