More impressive than the lip pursing, which was definitely the main embouchure shown on several of the riffs, the harp doesn't sit very deep in his mouth.
They must have overdubbed someone else playing, because it has been proven time and time again that you can't lip purse and get good blues tone because the harmonica isn't deep enough in the mouth, etc.
@Harpninja That was exactly my point. His tone was great yet he barely had the harp in his mouth. That was beyond pursing if you ask me. ---------- Tommy
He's not lip pursing, although I can see why you would think that by looking at the side view of him playing. Most tongue blockers do put the harp much further in their mouths, but it's still possible to tongue block without doing that. I can tongue block and have it look exactly the same from the side.
But you can definately tell that he's TBing if you listen to what he's playing. He's playing tongue slaps almost the enitire time he plays. And it's definately tongue slaps, not the technique where you lip purse and then widen and narrow your embouchure to imitate the tongue blocking sound. If you listen closely you can tell that he really is tongue slapping because it has a slightly different sound than the lip pursing technique (although this might be difficult for most people to here, because they really do sound almost exactly the same). But you can really tell when he tongue slaps the higher notes (above the 4 hole), because you can't really immitate that sound with the lip pursing technique (you can try, but it won't sound the same). When you tongue slap on the higher notes you get a chord from the lower end of the harmonica, but when you try to do this lip pursing the chord you get is made up of the notes on both sides of the target notes. So you end up getting a different and higher sounding chord, so it ends up sounding noticably different. And one last bit of evidence, once or twice during the clip, if you watch closely when he puts the harp up to his mouth, you can actually see him place his tongue on the harp before it reaches his lips.
BTW: I'm not trying to argue against HarpNinja's point about lip pursing and tone. His point is still valid, and I completely agree that lip pursing can have just as big of a tone as TBing.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2012 8:25 PM
Harpninja-Are you being sarcastic? If you aren't,I don't get it. He's doing a lot of TBing. Of course,he LP's,too. If I heard him doing that harp switching without seeing him, it would have drove me crazy trying to figure out what he was doing.
Sorry REM. we posted at the same time.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2012 8:32 PM
The first vid is amazing! If you can play along he makes it so easy to understand while barely saying anything. Fantastic! I had no idea 5th position sounded so cool!!
What was the point of using the chromatic? he didn't go anywhere near the button all the time he played. he just used it as a solo tuned diatonic. ---------- "Come on Brackett let's get changed"
What's the point of using a solo tuned diatonic, when you can use a chromatic, don't answer that - it's a trick question? Okay, seriously...say you have diarrhea, what's the point of crapping your pants if you have a toilet near by? You could hold it in, or use the toilet...Hope that helps lumpywafflesquirt.
@Frank I have absolutely no idea at all what you mean :^( He didn't say which key chrom it was, but saying 'I'm going to play chrom implies that you are going to use it chromatically, if you aren't, you might as well stick with the diatonic. Chroms are notoriously difficult to play properly.
It's exemplary tongue-blocked playing in the Big Walter style. But the way he just skates up those positions is amazing. And the combination of tone AND phrasing--all the space he leaves, the alternation of longer and shorter notes and phrases, the way he repeats little things with variation: he's a master, no question.
Why would he use the chromatic? He was just copying what Little Walter did. Why would he do it? Junior Wells also has songs where he switches between chromatic and diatonic. Why would he do it? Even if they aren't playing it chromatically, it still gives a great sound for blues in 3rd position that you just can't get with a diatonic.
I think he was purposely keeping it simple with the diatonic/chromatic thing. Even though they're both played 3rd pos., they don't sound the same. More of a shading,just to add some variety.
Moreso than how deep its in his mouth- how about his cup? It goes against everything I've learned on this forum. He seems to make it work. lol
To summarise all of the above: He plays SO gently (BBQ Bob acolyte ^) The Harp is NOT buried at all in his mouth. He doen't have any CUP as such Yet has the one of the best tones around. I'm confused. (not really but i sure as hell would be if i was just starting out)
Dear lumpy waffle squirt, What part of diarrhea did',t you understand? Just kidding - BTW, I love your handle :)
I feel your pain too...I'm upset that he didn't declare he was going to play the diatonic, diatoncally. After-all, he could of played it chromatically?
(Analysis) Playing totally relaxed + a very light Tongue Block attack + gently cradling the microphone + Proper Amplification = The TONE Steve produced!
I suspect Adam's warning against old-lady mouth-pursing is being taken too far. It's good advice for a beginner, as it gets him/her to understand the importance of embouchure, and putting the harp deep in your mouth is the easiest way to develop good embouchure. Once you become aware what the inside of your mouth is doing and what shape the cavity is, you can use any type of embouchure you want if it gives results. One thing to be said in favour of a shallow embouchure is that it enables you to move up and down the harp more easily at speed.
---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000874537399
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2012 4:40 AM
In never knew how great Steve is. Great. Thanks. very good tone, indeed. And not too detailed or difficult to understand, as to confuse(that'd be me). One of the few with a great voice, too. ..the dogs bullocks! ---------- Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2012 4:13 PM
Yeah buddy! I love me some Steve Guyger. He's got some fine CDs out on Severn records. ---------- Ricky B http://bushdogblues.blogspot.com RIVER BOTTOM BLUES--a crime novel for blues fans due out 2012
I haven't been on the internet much this last week, so I missed the responses to this.
Steve is puckering quite a bit - especially the bends. From what I see, it looks like he TB's the middle and upper notes while switching to LP for the bottom three and bends.
Around the 1min mark he plays a slew of bent notes with absolutely no TB embellishments. Around 2:20ish he plays a riff that is LP from 6 blow down and repeats it. The only TB shots I can see from a similar angle seem to occur when he is TB'ing for effect and not for clean single notes.
There is enough evidence here to say that he LP's a good deal of the time for a blues player with great tone - and not JUST for bends.
I only call attention to this because he has fantastic tone, obviously has chops, and doesn't follow the two cardinal rules of staunch TB supporters. 1.) Bury the harp in your mouth 2.) TB everything
If I, or others (who have), came on here and said we played blues using LP to play most single note runs as well as nearly all bends and only TB'ed for effect, we would be called LP players and told we'd sound better for blues if we TB'ed more.
In addition, the major speaking point for why using LP to play blues results in inferior tone is that the harmonica doesn't sit deep enough in the mouth. That is dissproven here, and further illustrates my point (I am not original in this idea) that embochure isn't the key issue with not-so-good-tone.
I am re-listening as I type and realizing that around the 8min mark with the Help Me groove he is using a ton of LP'ing.
His approach to blues and embochure is exactly the same as mine, which has been frequently debated here to be inferior for great tone. Sorry to nag about this, but this sort of video is exactly the kind of camera work I wish we had for a number of artists as I feel strongly that most pucker a lot, and that the whole tone/embochure thing is a joke.
The notion that you can't get good tone with LP is not true. While it doesn't automatically mean good tone, but I don't think TB does either, I think the real issue is more to do with breath support and tension in the mouth. The difference in audible sound is usually a result of embellishment. People always call it tone, but it isn't the tone, but the embellishments, like tongue slaps, that "fatten" things up.
This fattening isn't from better tone, it is from chording and partial chording the bulk of the time. In otherwords the fat blues tone has little to do with TB and more to do with not playing clean single notes. The blues SOUND is about the bends and embellishments associated with TB'ing added to good tone - which, when comparing single notes by skilled players of either embochure - sounds the same between embochures.
@Tuckster, if you are sincerely asking if I am being sarcastic, then read my whole post instead of just the first part.
Finally you guys believe you can get a great tone in lip purse or pucker as some call it. 95% of my blues playing is lip purse and I don't use a deep seated harp in the mouth. IMHO the resonance is in the body the mouth cavity has a lot to do with it. Steve and I both had the same first chromatic teacher Forrest Scott. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Excellent post Harpninja. It has been mentioned in this thread that he tongue blocked some notes. For me, that wasn't the point. The point was that I didn't care what the hell he was doing. By proof of the video "he did not have the harp deep in his mouth." That was the point (for me). To be perfectly honest not only wasn't it deep in his mouth it looked as if it was barely touching his lips! So...with that said...even if his tongue was involved somehow, the point still stands that his tone was great without putting the harp deep in his mouth or with a full embouchure.
The thoughts I'm left with? There is a goal we're after. get there anyway you can. There is no "one way." The principles involved (embouchure, sound chamber, etc) have to be taken into consideration but the end result is the main thing.
Much is written about the old masters and how they played but unless you/we were there and actually saw it or discussed it with the player directly it is at best only an educated guess. In my time I have seen and heard many things recreated, pretty much as good, in the belief it was done with the same technique only to discover it wasn't. So what...the result was the same.
Sorry to burst everyones bubble-Steve tongue blocks 95% of the time-he very rarely lip purses. If you really think you can tell from watching and listening to that video,your mistaken. I verified this just minutes ago with a close personal freind of Steve's. Someone who had played with Steve on gigs over the past 20 or so years-I am close to Steve as well. I have NEVER heard or seen him lip purse playing live. You should re-read REM's post
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2012 1:49 PM
After years and years of studying including an in depth probe of classical music on the chromatic harp, Steve met Rich Yescalis, a guitarist and bassist who had logged time with the likes of Jimmy Rogers, Sam Lay, Eddie Taylor and Wild Child Butler. Rich would become a good friend, a collaborator and long-time sideman with Steve. Steve recalls that “Richie (Rich Yesscalis) had been hanging out in Chicago where he met up with Big Walter Horton who gave him an explanation of the technique called tongue blocking”. That was a major turning point for Steve who now understood a big chunk of the sound he had been striving for. “Another turning point in my playing” , Steve said ,”was when I met Paul Oscher.” Between Paul Oscher and Paul’s guitarist Frankie Padini (also a great harp player) Steve really began to understand the essence of tough Chicago Blues style harp playing.
Wait, I am supposed to discount what I see and hear because of not what a primary or secondary, but a tertiary witness is saying?
And your second post...how is that relevant? No one is saying he isn't TB'ing part of the the time to even most. That adds zero credibility. If you asked Kim Wilson how he played, he'd say TB, but it has also been reported that he LP's the bottom end and bends. I mean, people can say, exaggerate, and twist whatever they want. At least I am trying to use some actual evidence beyond rumour.
Do you believe Robert Johnson made a deal with the devil too? Seriously, your posts provide no hard evidence of anything.
If you think I am going to ignore what I can see and hear over what an anonymous poster types, then you are the one who is, infact, mistaken.
@HarpNinja-OK-how about a post from Kingley-you know of him,or at least you have heard of him posting on this forum,correct?
Well since you asked.
Dennis Gruenling Big Walter Horton Rod Piazza Gary Smith Mark Hummel Kim Wilson Steve Guyger William Clarke Sugar Ray Norcia Gary Primich Jerry Portnoy RJ Mischo David Barret James Harman Mitch Kashmar Andy Just Mark Ford Sugar Blue - Edit -I forgot to add him in
All of them as far as I'm aware are predominantly tongue blockers. Not that it matters in the slightest of course. Last Edited on 27-Feb-2010 4:30 AM
Once again (I think it has been said a few times already in this thread). It isn't about TB vs LP. Yes, he may be tongue blocking but that isn't the point. The point is that the harp isn't deep in his mouth and he is still getting good tone. ---------- Tommy
"I am re-listening as I type and realizing that around the 8min mark with the Help Me groove he is using a ton of LP'ing.
His approach to blues and embochure is exactly the same as mine, which has been frequently debated here to be inferior for great tone. Sorry to nag about this, but this sort of video is exactly the kind of camera work I wish we had for a number of artists as I feel strongly that most pucker a lot, and that the whole tone/embochure thing is a joke." He is NOT using a ton of lip pursing. It's no joke. You are a lip purser-Steve is a tongue blocker-comparing your playing style to Steve's is a huge leap of faith-
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2012 4:48 PM
I lip purse and tongue block. Once again, you make an assumption based on next to know evidence beyond rhetoric. This just furthers my point...who are you to tell ME how much I do anything!?
I shouldn't even let you bait me like this, but your posts don't even make sense, nor are they on topic. He is obviously mixing embochures and his tone doesn't suffer for it.
The fact that I do the same thing isn't even what is important here. I only even mentioned that figuring someone who read the whole post would be wise enough to infer that I was noting that I had experience with saying what I was...He is playing some of those lines exactly like I would - moving from TB to LP and back. You can see it and hear it on the fast run previously pointed out (evidence, what a crazy notion).
If people want to disagree with me, fine, but at least I try to provide some basis for my opinion beyond making stuff up or making everyone take my word for it...which is probably hard for people to do if they don't know who you are or what your playing is like.
The fact that you think you know about how I play, even if you've seen some of the small handful of YouTubes I have up (none of which are traditional blues like this anyways) enough to tell me my style of play - including what embochures I use/don't use is a joke.
I TB everything except the 1 overblow, and it looks exactly like this much of the time. Just looked in the mirror and checked lol. There are several big timers that I always thought TB'd everything that really don't though. Join Dave Barrett's site for a month and watch the interviews. Steve Guyger's is very interesting, and he talked about Joe Lee Bush for several minutes during the "tongueblocking" segment.
He talks about playing his high end blow bends totally with a TB in that segment of Dave's interview. If that's the case, one can rest assured he is simply doing the same everywhere else on the harp.
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2012 6:27 AM
The 4:28 mark in the video seals it for me-Steve may experiment with techniques ,but he never experiments during a gig. He actually is a 100% tongue blocker.
It is well known that Steve is one of the MASTERFUL torch bearers of the traditional TBing style. Sure Steve can play LB notes, but it's the [exception to the rule]... One would lose all their hard earned money if wagered against that fact!
When a TB'er is playing traditional blues, the last thing on their mind is playing anything LB - because it just isn't necessary to do so 99.9 % of the time.
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2012 6:44 AM
I find myself in the unexpected position of agreeing with tmf and disagreeing with HarpNinja about what Steve is doing, at least in the very first video. And it seems to me that we should all be willing to take Steve's word for it: If he tells Dave Barrett that he's TBing everything, why argue?
I can't believe the TB vs. LP arguments are still taking place. They distract from the important stuff.
The most important things I heard in all of the videos are: “Each player develops their own tone.” He mentioned that while he is primarily a tongue blocker he also practices on his lip pursing and curl tonguing. All of these are techniques that add variety to your sound. Learn both for the strengths of both. Then mix them up for your sound…
"I can't believe the TB vs. LP arguments are still taking place. They distract from the important stuff. " Get ready for a bomb to be dropped on this forum by a top pro on this sublect in the next few weeks- Thomas Fiacco III
I think what a lot of players who aren't "hardcore TB'ers" don't quite understand is this... that most anything a LB'er can do - can also easily be done by an experienced TB'er, regardless of what the riff, run or phrase is or how fast it's played...
Once you become proficient at TBing, it's pointless to use any LBing unless absolutely necessary. And especially when playing traditional blues a TB'er doing any LB runs is RARE!
Also, a true TB'er does not make a habit of switching between the two embouchure's. They have no reason to, it's senseless - except in rare occasions.
