Littoral
458 posts
Jan 04, 2012
3:55 AM
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I'm doing my own work and I'm happy enough so far.
I certainly haven't accomplished anything special relative to pro work but drilling sealing and tuning and a little gapping as been great for resurrecting some old MB's.
I've never played a custom set up by someone who knows what they're doing. I'd like to know what I'm missing. I don't want full tilt OB's because that set up isn't my approach to harp. I'm one of those TB bending/chord people -but precise. Think Gruenling (ok, but not).
My Question:
What is the minimum I need in a custom to provide a benchmark for responsiveness -including the basic OB's?
Note: starving teacher that can't afford squat. I do have old MB's for possible trade...?
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2012 3:57 AM
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Frank
86 posts
Jan 04, 2012
4:15 AM
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If your work is producing a product with the playing ability similar to a Crossover or a Deluxe you should be a happy camper. Those harps I believe are great benchmarks to compare your efforts to!
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HarpNinja
2057 posts
Jan 04, 2012
6:01 AM
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I would get the best harp I could afford from the best customizer I could afford. To a very large extent, you get what you pay for.
Never pay a customizer for their time. Pay them for their quality and talent.
Myself excluded (obviously my first choice, lol), I would only ever buy a custom from the Filisko Guild (I think Richard Sleigh is the only one doing public builds right now) or Joe Spiers. I own harps from those guys, have serviced many from those guys, and have gotten feedback from my peers on their purchases from those guys.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2012 6:02 AM
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barbequebob
1792 posts
Jan 04, 2012
8:07 AM
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Work from different customizers are often quirte a lot different. Tho the majority of customs from most all of them are going to be often times better than anything you get OOTB, having tried from other players, the work from the Filisko guild and Joe Spiers, no question in my mind, they are the best by a country mile.
Soem customizers will only do blues setups, which is going to be WAAAAAAY different than an overblow setup, and if you overblow, you HAVE to go to someone who does do work for those harps and as most customizers are terrific harp players in their own right (Joe Filisko himself is a great example), if they don't play OB's, you are out of your freaking mind getting a custom from someone who can't play them at all because someone who plays that stuff KNOWS what is necessary to make it happen.
Rupert Oysler has said many times in learning how to do that, he ruined tons of harps along the way.
Filisko himself hasn't taken on new customers in about 8 years and most of his base are big name pros from a wide variety of genres and when he was taking on new customers, his turnaround time was 18 months. You may bitch about the wait, but good players KNOW that good quality work is well worth the wait because you'll never get that kind of quality OOTB. Jimmy Gordon is taking orders, anfd I think his turnaround time is roughly a year now. I'm not sure Richard Sleigh is taking new orders tho.
Littoral, the setup you need is what the Filisko guild calls the blues setup and the OB setup is not what you need because the way the instrument will respond is not going to be what you want for your own playing needs at this moment. If you want to start practicing, the way to go is get out any old junk harps you have or just buy the really cheapie Chinese stuff and hold off doing your better stuff until you'rw more comfortable with what you're doing.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarpNinja
2059 posts
Jan 04, 2012
8:22 AM
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Bob,
You should give me a shout out next time you need a new harp. I 100% agree that the best overbend harps come from overbend players. I think a lot of what makes a great OB harp ends up making a great blues harp too.
The question at that point becomes more about tone than playability. IMO, one of the biggest difference in the top end work for blues is the difference in tone between harps from different customizers.
It is probably a moot point for the audience, but for the player, you can learn to hear different approaches.
***As far as I know, not all custom players really customize. Some just do a standard set-up or two without allowing for other options. I am not accusing anyone of this or saying it is bad (or good), but that if you really know what you want, you shouldn't have to settle for less than that.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2012 8:27 AM
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MichaelAndrewLo
550 posts
Jan 04, 2012
8:47 AM
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The crossover is a very solid harp for sure. I have been playing a C crossover that I did only some basic gapping on and with the bamboo comb it was sad to say but it was more responsive and easier to play than the $350 custom harp I bought from australia. I have tried a filisko harmonica and that was a great experience but not one which I expect to be able to buy at this point. I have also tried Richard Sleigh's "all purpose" set up on the marine bands and that is wonderful as well. I have a (old) stage 3 custom harmonica from Joe Spiers in Bb which I think is what his stage 4 is now. The build quality is like a swiss army knife. Everything is top and the SOUND that comes from it is unlike an harmonica I have played. It simply sounds like a cohesive instrument across all registers. I don't know how else to put it. Joe Spiers on his top instruments replaces the rivets with screws so if one was somewhat adept at their own work they could possibly change out their own reeds like what a B-rad was supposed to do. Aside the harmonica quality I think that the other factors such as customer service, wait times, and just being a generally responsive and nice guy is what makes Joe Spiers the best harmonica customizer in the world right now.
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Andrew Larson, R.N.
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hvyj
2039 posts
Jan 04, 2012
8:54 AM
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I recently got a set of custom Golden Melody Quicksilver harps from HarpNinja and I'm very happy with them. I don't OB but I do play multiple positions, so I only use ET harps. Personally, I don't like MBs or Sp 20s, and at the time I got the Quicksilvers GMs from Mike, Joe Spiers wasn't offering GMs. And from what I see on his website, I'm not sure Richard Sleigh builds ET harps, but I've never actually asked him about that.
Even though I don't OB, I'm not interested in a "blues setup" because I want a harp tuned to pure ET A442.
Since I've been playing harp for a while, I've developed very definite specific preferences for what sort of harp I want to use for my particular style of playing. Personally, I think it helps the customizer build a harp that fits your needs if you know what you are after.
I really like Mike's harps because they have a very smooth tone--not at all raspy despite the tightened tolerances. Bends are precise and response is terrific. Response and tonal quality is very even across the registers. The reeds are not at all "sticky." I can play them with a strong attack and they don't jam or stall. Also the workmanship is very impressive--very clean with obvious attention to detail, and no goop on the reed rivets. Better than my old Buddha harps.
I like playing custom harps. It's easier to make them respond to technique. I find playing them actually improves and refines my technique since I'm not fighting with the instrument to get it to do what i want it to do. For example, i had a hard time controlling blow bends until I started to play customs. Now, I'm much better at that even on non-custom harps because my technique got more refined playing customs.
Joe Spiers (harpwrench) has an excellent reputation and I see he is now starting to offer GMs again. But I'm certainly impressed with the custom GMs I got from HarpNinja as well as with the level of service and individualized personalized attention he devoted to my requests and the building of the harps. Highly recommended.
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2012 8:57 AM
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jim
1113 posts
Jan 04, 2012
9:46 AM
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"I'm not sure Richard Sleigh builds ET harps"
this would be real WEIRD if he didn't...
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Free Harp Learning Center
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hvyj
2040 posts
Jan 04, 2012
10:41 AM
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@jim: Yeah, I sure think so. But take a look at his website. Apparently he also thinks that practicing making train noises is the best way to develop harmonica technique which is an approach that's pretty far removed from my musical interests. I mean, the last thing I would ever want to do is play choo-choo train noises on my harmonica and, btw, ET isn't the optimum tuning for playing train imitations anyway, assuming one is into that sort of thing. Go figure....
Like BBQ Bob said, it's important to use a customizer who can play what you want your harp to be able to do. Richard Sleigh can probably play rings around me, but if he thinks playing train imitations is the foundation of great harmonica technique, that does not inspire confidence that he and i would have much in common musically.
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MP
1941 posts
Jan 04, 2012
11:53 AM
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hvyj, HAH! that was funny! "choo-choo train noises". that made it worth logging on today.
i used to practice train rhythms and licks on a low C 364 to build stamina and technique. it works very well for that purpose. even though i admire sleigh i see where you are going. i'm not sure that is his intention but whatever..it was funny anyway.
i love filisko and sleigh harps. gordons seem slightly different to me but none have that raspy tone
from uneven embossing.
i hate that sound.
last night i found two MBDs i had worked on a few years ago. it seems i was keeping them as spares. i played them and hated the b5s and 7ths and choo-choo train noises. actually, i think i hated every fooking sound they made.
i unembossed them (or rather smoothed the topigraphical edges) and now they are ok.
i've never heard of sleigh offering harps in ET tuning and he has made it clear in at least one video (can't remember which) that he doesn't care for it.
i don't like it either but that's neither here nor there. we know joe spiers makes them, otherwise todd parrott would go elsewhere.
but regarding the topic. buy a Joe Spiers Special 20 from rockinronsmusic4less before they are all sold out. i've never tried one of his harps but his rep precedes him.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2012 12:02 PM
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Littoral
460 posts
Jan 04, 2012
11:58 AM
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Lots of excellent advise here, thanks.
hvyi, busting on trains. That ain't right.
choo choo gets more "whistle" than toot toot.
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Diggsblues
1130 posts
Jan 04, 2012
12:53 PM
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I decided to take the dive into harp tweaking after SPAH. A lot of what I do is now is based on the Joe Spiers video on how to adjust reed action. My student had an early Marine Band deluxe that he said didn't play well. He tried to fix it and screwed it up pretty bad. After I did a simple reed action adjustment it played like butter with great bends and fat overblows
on 4,5 and 6.
I think learning to tweak harps is a good skill for every player to have. It won't take the place of a great custom harp but making a stock harp play better is so rewarding when you pick it up to play.
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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bluzlvr
451 posts
Jan 04, 2012
12:57 PM
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I have two custom James Gordon harps (Marine Band in A, Special 20 in C) that I purchased about 14 years ago.
They are so far above the OOTB harps it's not even funny.
As soon as I win the lottery, I'm gonna get me a full set of customs...
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myspace
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jim
1114 posts
Jan 04, 2012
1:55 PM
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@hvyj LOOOL that's so funny.
I'm with you on the ET topic. My whole set of five diatonics is 440 ET now.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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hvyj
2043 posts
Jan 04, 2012
3:58 PM
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@jim: Yeah. I have never understood the logic of playing an instrument that puts you out of tune with the band just so you can be more in tune with yourself when you play chords.
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FMWoodeye
170 posts
Jan 04, 2012
8:55 PM
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I think practicing train sounds is a major component contributing to where I am now. Hey....wait a minute.
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barbequebob
1798 posts
Jan 05, 2012
9:54 AM
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Blues setups are basically just setups NOT for OB players and all customizers, when requested CAN AND WILL do them in ET tuning, so thinking they don't is totally wrong.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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barbequebob
1799 posts
Jan 05, 2012
9:58 AM
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Blues setups are basically just setups NOT for OB players and all customizers, when requested CAN AND WILL do them in ET tuning, so thinking they don't is totally wrong.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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hvyj
2049 posts
Jan 05, 2012
10:26 AM
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Bob, That may be true, but if I'm ordering a custom harp I want to use a builder who can understand and relate to what I'm trying to do musically.
A guy who believes practicing choo choo train rhythms is the foundation of good harmonica technique is in a completely different musical universe from the one I inhabit. I mean, i don't even like to listen to that shit let alone play it. To me, it's in the same category as stupid pet tricks. So, my concern is that there would be a lack of common perspective that is essential to achieving the sort of good communication you need in order to get a suitable individualized custom build.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2012 11:21 AM
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jim
1117 posts
Jan 05, 2012
11:21 AM
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@hvyj:
why are you still struggling with Richter?
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Free Harp Learning Center
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hvyj
2050 posts
Jan 05, 2012
11:38 AM
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@Jim: Because i am familiar with it, can play it in 6 positions (5 of them proficiently) and i understand it.
I do think your "true chromatic" tuning for chroms is very interesting and i understand you have a similar custom tuning for diatonics.
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jim
1118 posts
Jan 05, 2012
11:54 AM
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actually not similar but exactly the same...
powerchromatic is also a very good option that fits both the diatonic and the chromatic perfectly.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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tmf714
945 posts
Jan 05, 2012
12:06 PM
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@hvyj-Whats with the "choo-choo" part? Where do you get that from?
Richard says nothing about "Choo-Choo" train rhythms-
Richard is a fantastic musician on guitar,harmonica and other instruments. I own nothing other than Filisko and Sleigh custom harps,as far as customs go-they are hands down THE best custom harps-I have not tried them all,but I have tried many-I stopped looking after I received my first Filisko.
Here is the post from Richards website -by the way,if you bother to read the post,it really focuses on BREATHING-
Train Rhythms and Pentatonic Scales
instructions and personal coaching
Currently available as a download ONLY - this comes with free updates
Core harmonica skills for any style of music. Every musical instrument has basic skills that must be mastered to have a solid foundation, the simple things that make possible all the other techniques. Learn how to hold a guitar so your fingers can move freely and you will make a lot more progress as time goes on than someone crippled with a grip that restricts your fingers from their full range of motion. Learn how to smoothly pass your thumb under your fingers on a piano keyboard while playing a scale, and you have the key to playing with control and perfect rhythm.
The harmonica is an unusual instrument because you play it breathing in as well as out. One of the core skills for mastering the harmonica is relaxed, balanced breathing. It just happens to be true that one of the most basic breathing exercise for the harmonica is also the basis for many of the great harmonica steam train imitations. This explains why so many of the early harmonica players have such huge tone. They grew up with the steam trains and they learned to play steam train imitations on the harmonica. When you master breathing through the harmonica, you can:
Step by step instructions on how to:
- Create HUGE TONE at will - When your throat gets big on the inside, the tone on the outside gets big as well.
- Smooth out how you go from blow to draw notes so your playing has an effortless, free-flowing feel and sound.
- Go from the thinnest, “cut the room” treble sound to a deep round bass tone when you want to. It’s like having a tone control that gives you the whole range from high to mid to low
- Conserve your energy and never run out of breath. When you play, people will ask you “When do you breathe??” and you can say “All the time!”
The pentatonic scales combined with the train rhythms are the perfect warm up exercises and chop builders. You will never outgrow them. Included with the scale exercises are detailed instructions on the moves you need to master to play fast and smooth, and efficiently.
With the pentatonic scale exercises you can:
- Use 3 single note patterns as the framework for melodies in at least 6 different positions, speed patterns, and jamming.
-Train yourself to avoid the most common bad notes or “clams” in the 6 most useful positions on the diatonic harmonica
-Develop a solid foundation for playing all of the more complex scales and modes.
I am not compensated by Joe,Richard or James-I simply love the intruments I have purchased from them.
Johhny Bishop has recently joined the guild-I have an A Marine Band from him-the best playing A harp I have ever owned-HANDS DOWN!!
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2012 12:07 PM
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hvyj
2052 posts
Jan 05, 2012
1:12 PM
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@tmf14: just out of curiosity are any of your custom harps ET and are any of your custom harps GMs?
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hvyj
2053 posts
Jan 05, 2012
2:28 PM
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Nevermind. I just checked Richard Sleigh's website and he only builds MBs and only describes compromise and JI tunings. I'm sure his product is terrific for players who are interested in that type of harp. Probably sounds great for train rhythms.
Btw, it's nice to see that someone is finally publishing instructional materials that explain the 3 common pentatonic breath patterns which work for playing in 6 positions. I figured that out several years ago and have always wondered why no instructional materials have ever explained it since it's such a useful way to learn how to play in multiple positions and understand how the different positions relate to one another. Nice to see that Sleigh has filed that gap.
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timeistight
281 posts
Jan 05, 2012
2:44 PM
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From http://rsleigh.com/custom-harmonicas/:"I don’t do straight equal temperament unless you ask for it." (Emphasis added.) Joe Flisko builds Howard levy's equally-tuned harps. They are not Golden Melodies, but they do have unvented covers. Levy seems to like them.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2012 3:07 PM
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tmf714
946 posts
Jan 05, 2012
2:47 PM
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@hvyj-my customs are a mix of compromised tuning and just tuning.
I own one golden melody custom harmonica with Special 20 reedplates installed,making it compromised tuned.
The only JI custom I own is a Richard Sleigh "Little Walter" harp in pure just intonation.
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Littoral
461 posts
Jan 05, 2012
2:49 PM
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hvyi, Why?
Did some amateur tongue blocking chug comping dude steal your girlfriend?
I'm certain that you're great at what you do.
Be happy, move on.
Maybe?
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hvyj
2054 posts
Jan 05, 2012
3:25 PM
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No hostility. Just a matter of perspective. Some players emphasize harmonica specific techniques, other players don't play the harmonica like it's a harmonica.
Anyway, I sort of got off track but my original point was that it's probably easier to communicate points of concern to a builder who shares a common perspective about such matters since that builder would probably be more receptive to addressing those concerns in a compatible way. That's all. But maybe I'm wrong.
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Frank
89 posts
Jan 06, 2012
4:37 AM
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No maybes about it my friend, your wrong!
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MrVerylongusername
2140 posts
Jan 06, 2012
10:44 AM
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"other players don't play the harmonica like it's a harmonica"
What do you do? pluck it? ;-)
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hvyj
2056 posts
Jan 06, 2012
11:04 AM
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Very funny. I'm referring to phrasing and note choices. It's a stylistic thing.
Not to offend anyone's sensibilities, but there's stuff like train rhythms, chugging, and other mostly chordal based playing techniques that are what I call harmonica specific--other instruments can't play those things.
By "not playing a harmonica like it's a harmonica" I'm referring to phrasing passages like say, a sax or an keyboard or a guitar might and playing that way-- developing musical ideas from what is played by instruments other than the harmonica and not emphasizing harmonica specific techniques. Purely a stylistic matter. IMHO, this sort of approach tends to help a player avoid cliches.
Not saying that one approach is inherently better than the the other, and they are not mutually exclusive. What approach a player chooses to emphasize depends on what a player finds musically interesting.
I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that customizers may tend to build harps better that are optimized for the way they prefer to play the instrument because this is where their body of personal experience lies. But I've been told this notion is incorrect. Yet, I've also been told that a builder who does not OB can't effectively build a harp for OB playing.
Anyway, I must be confused, so I'll leave it those wiser and more experienced than i am to sort this out for me.
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timeistight
282 posts
Jan 06, 2012
11:56 AM
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I think it's a false dichotomy. Howard Levy certainly plays the harmonica like "a sax or an keyboard or a guitar might"; he plays chromatically across multiple genres. Yet Levy also takes full advantage of the unique qualities of the instrument.
I don't know Joe Flisko's playing as well, but my impression is that he is a much more traditional player, although hat doesn't seem to have hurt his customization business at all. I'd bet that he can play in a much wider variety of styles than he chooses to play publicly.
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FMWoodeye
171 posts
Jan 06, 2012
1:33 PM
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Give hvyj a break. If he doesn't like train sounds that's his preference and opinion. Personally, I think the train is comparable to variations on the Carnival of Venice for a classically trained trumpet player. I must say for the past year, maybe more, I have been trying "horn licks," pulling them from big bands in the forties as well as some more modern stuff, rhythm licks as played by trumpeter Doc Severinsen, classic rock riffs, guitar licks. Hell, I lifted an entire 12-bar muted trumpet solo from Tuxedo Junction, harped it up a bit, and it fits perfectly in a slow blues solo. My personal "train" involves a lot of triple tonguing which I learned playing bone, trumpet and bugle. It's all similar to vocabulary. I draw on all my knowledge and experience and speak taking the listener and my message into consideration. Humor is also part of it, and I bring that into my playing, too. I mean....can't we all just get along?
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chromaticblues
1119 posts
Jan 06, 2012
2:50 PM
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@Littoral You should know better than to sak a simple question! There's no way it can end well here.
OK the answer to the question is first you have learn how to set the reeds. Not just gap them!
How old your Marine Bands are will determine what plan of action is needed. If they are all 1995 and newer than they don't need to be embossed to be made into very good harps.
You need to find someone that isn't full of shit to help you figure out what you have and what needs to be done! Do alot of research before you start ruining good harps. I know thats the way to do it because I did it the exact opposite way!
Good Luck!
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