Most of this is over my head,but if you play a C with the button in aren't you in Db? Third pos.,the band's in Eb?
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 4:58 PM
"I would trust Dennis' "cobbled together quasi-logic " before I trusted someone who wrote a book called "Harmonica for Dummies""
What an absurd comment. There's a reason why Winslow is so highly respected in the harmonica community. He has a depth of knowledge about the harmonica that very few can match, and "harmonica for Dummies" is a fantastic source of information. In many people's opinion it's one of the best and most comprehensive harmonica books ever published. You'd be hard pressed to find many people who wouldn't learn anything from reading that book.
Also, your comment that you'd rather (dogmatically) trust Dennis's logic is kind of ridiculous, since as I mentioned in my last post, Dennis isn't even consistent in his logic on this particular issue.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 5:39 PM
""The Other One" is in Eb. Paul deLay uses a C chromatic, played in 10th position. Note the slide jabs from D up to Eb and from B up to C. That tells you it's not a Db chromatic because those jabs wouldn't be possible.
And anyway, where are you going to find a Db chromatic? (Paul didn't fling money at his harps. He played Big River diatonics because they were cheap, and stock chromatics. Nobody makes a stock Db.) "
I'm confused. If you played with the button in, couldn't you use the same patterns as if you were in D (button out)? Except now you're in Eb? Both in 3rd pos.
Why couldn't Paul be playing a C with the button in? That would make it Db.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 5:43 PM
TMF714 All of the notes are available on any keyed chromatic. That does not inform us. Besides, this song is not in Db major, it is in Eb minor. The Eb dorian scale is a mode of Db major, I will give you that!However he also used accidentals, which would be available on any harp, again telling us nothing.
One thing you did not mention is where these notes would be located on an Eb chromatic. Db would be in 3 draw slide in. Do you agree with that? Where do you place the rest of the notes?
Do you own an Eb chromatic? I would love for you to figure the opening solo at the beginning of the song "The Other One" (because that is the song I am talking about, are we talking about the same song?) on your Eb chromatic, tab it out, show me the tab and then play it for me along with the recording. Because I am really disagreeing with you on this one. To find out I am wrong would be wonderful however, I want to learn. Please prove me wrong if you can.
@REM- you may think Winslow is the greatest thing since sliced bread-I don't care for his logic,point of view or books-simple as that-I really don't care what you think of mine or Dennis' views on this subject-that fact is Dennis will play circles around Winslow-he may be a bit jealous,as you may be as well.
Dennis has some books forthcoming-I am sure they will be just as,if not more informative than Winslow's -we shall see.
@tuckster tmf714 is only half correct. You can play in third position which is D. Then play the same scale with the slide in and thats Eb. Your using 1, 5 and/or 9 as your root note. You can play in C with the slide in using Draw 4 and/or 8 as the root note. Tuckster the way most people play the blues scale is: Blow 1, Draw 1 slide in, Draw 2, Draw 2 slide in, Blow 3, Draw 3 slide in and Blow 4. OK now the other way Draw 4 slide in, Draw 5 slide in, Blow 6 slide in/or Draw 6, Draw 6 slide in, Blow 7, Draw 7 slide in and either 8 Draw with the slide in or 8 blow. As I stated earlier the beauty of this style is you always play the blow C's to end licks to release air from playing so many draw notes. Hope that helps! @Winslow Do you know if Paul Delay ever played this way? Also can you think of a good recorded example of this style for everone to check out?
tmf714 You seem to be quit disrespectful. Nothing Winslow said was incorrect. Why in hell would you explain "C" as a B#. If you can't be helpful or even just positive. Please build a little Dennis alter and pray for a better attitude! Winslow is a very VERY knowledgable person. He was not bashing. He was just pointing out something that has honestly bothered me for awhile also.
Tuckster, Yes you would use essentially the same patterns. But there are exceptions where the patterns are different. These exception are when you use the slide, for example if you want play the flat 5th in D, you play blow 3 with the slide in, whereas in Eb you would play the flat 5th by playing a draw 3 with slide out, so this is a change in the pattern.
As to whether or not Eb should be considered 3rd position or 10th position is essentially one of the things that's being argued in this thread. In my view, just because Eb has (almost) the same playing patterns as D, it doesn't mean that Eb is also third position. There are ways to tune a chromatic so that all the major and minor scales can be played by using only 4 different patterns(you just play the same exact pattern starting on a different hole). Would this mean that there are only 4 positions, of course not. The patterns have nothing to do with positions. Positions are simply the relationship between the tuning of the harmonica and the key you're playing in.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 6:30 PM
Yes Tuckster 1st position. Or its easier to just think of it as C on a C harp. I think talking about positions on the chrom just makes it more complicated.
Tmf714, Once again you've chosen to ignore the inconsistency of logic I pointed out. Your assertion that Winslow and I are just jealous of Dennis, is just a very childish debating tactic and it has absolutely no merit. Trying to support your point of view by making personal attacks against your opponent is an unacceptable debate tactic.
Futher more, Dennis's virtuosity is completely irrelevent to the topic. Just because he's a great player it doesn't make his logic infallible. For example, if he told you that playing in the key of E on a C harp is called 4th position, he'd be wrong. The fact that he's a great player wouldn't change that fact, it's completely irrelevent. I realise this is just an imaginary hypothetical situation, but there are in fact a few well known great players who use to refer to playing in E on a C harp as 4th position. They may have believed this because Tony Glover's book incorrectly labeled this as 4th position. Or it may be that, like many players, they just numbered the positions in the order they discovered them. Either way, the fact that a couple of really great players use to think this has absolutely no bearing on the legitamacy of that belief.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 6:53 PM
@chromaticblues-watch your step-your treading into the grey area of the forum creed- no disrespect meant-just honest,passion for the music I love to play and the people who play it.
@REM-it was not only Tony Glover-Jerry Portnoy has also stated that the "position" references changed as the years went on. That was before the "Circle of Fifths"-or people just chose not to recognize it.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 6:42 PM
tmf714- The fact that you seem to have a dogmatic belief in everything Dennis says, due to the fact he's a world class player, is like someone believing that a virtuoso musician must also be a complete expert on the topic of music theory. We know that this is not a logical belief, because we know that some of the greatest musical virtuosos knew nothing about music theory. So we know that just because someone is a great musician, it doesn't follow that they are also an expert on the topic of music theory. The topic of positions falls under the category of music theory, so it should be obvious that just because Dennis is an amazing player, it doesn't autmatically make his beliefs about harmonica positions on the chromatic infallible. And it also doesn't follow that Dennis's beliefs on the subject are somehow more credible than Winslows, due to the fact that Dennis is a vituoso harmonica player.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 7:03 PM
tmf714- I don't see how chromaticblues pointing out that some of the things that your saying are disrespectful is violating the forum creed. If anything, it would be the other way around.
"you can't be helpful or even just positive. Please build a little Dennis alter and pray for a better attitude!"
Religion is one topic where we have, unfortunately, proven our inability to remain civil or respect each other's differences. Accordingly, threads containing the word "religion" or variants on that word, and/or threads devoted explicitly to discussions of religion are BANNED FROM THIS FORUM until further notice.
Well I think this particular debate/discussion is pretty much over. Tmf714, you've chosen to not respond the logical inconsistency I pointed out, and you stopped attempting to support your belief with logical arguments, and have more or less resorted to just saying that you're right, and we're wrong, because Dennis is a great player. So I don't think we really need to continue.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 7:27 PM
@REM-I prefer Dennis' methods of teaching and playing,because he is firmly entrenched and has academic merits relating to the music I currrently play and listen to-blues,jump and swing. I am not interested in classical music,nor do I care to learn about it. I am passionate about my music-to the point that I become all consumed by it. My cousin is a world class cello player-my brother has toured with world class musicians playing guitar-I play guitar,drums,trumpet and trombone. I know more about music than most haromnica players. I have also surrounded myself recently with some of the best blues players alive-Steve Guyger,Rod Piazza,Kim Wilson,Rick Estrin-I have taken lessons in person from Jerry Portnoy and Dennis Gruenling. I have had the great fortune to play with guitarists like Doug Deming, Mark Korpi, Rusty Zinn,Jon Paris,Popa Chubby, and The Holmes Brothers. I am not blowing smoke here-just pure,unadulterated passion. If you guys want to think playing blues in first position on a C chromatic sounds "blusier" than third position,you are just barking up the wrong tree. Carry on if you want-I will keep playing the blues the way I learned from the masters of the instrument-. And yes REM-it is just easier for you to check out.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 7:36 PM
That's great. I'm also a big fan of Dennis and his playing, but none of that stuff has anything to do with what we were talking about. But I'm glad you're passionate about music.
"If you guys want to think playing blues in first position on a C chromatic sounds "blusier" than third position,you are just barking up the wrong tree."
I don't remember anybody making that claim on this thread, you shouldn't put words in peoples mouths.
BTW, if anybody's interested, here's a site that should make it clear as to why it isn't too sensible to think in terms of playing in the "key of B#": http://www.cisdur.de/e_hisdur.html
"If you guys want to think playing blues in first position on a C chromatic sounds "blusier" than third position,you are just barking up the wrong tree"
I don't recall anyone saying it was "blusier" than 3rd. They merely stated that there are other positional options available to people playing blues on a chromatic that should be explored by people learning to play blues on a chromatic harmonica. Both Dennis and Rick use multiple positions when playing blues on chromatic and don't simply stick to playing in 3rd.
It always makes me chuckle when chromatic gets discussed here. It usually limited to blues styles. I don't usually play blues on chromatic but I discovered I'm not too bad at it. I think it takes some time playing all 12 blues scales to discover the little gems each key has to offer. For the most part we are usually tied to guitar keys unless it's something done by Little Walter or George Smith.
I don't usually think position only if I need to relate it to diatonic players. Keys are more realistic for me and the rest of the world.
Some keys to check blueswise: F (12th) A (4th also relative minor of C Chromatic) E (5th). I left out the usual suspects. This is on a C chromatic.
Water Melon Man is good to work on in F. Using an A blues scale and other related scales works nicely in Ain't No Sunshine.
Something is G
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
@Diggs This website is called "Modern Blues Harmonica". For that reason I've tried to present chromatic harmonica in a way that Blues diatonic players might find interesting. At the top of the page it doesn't say: Moder Jazz or Modern Classical or Modern elevater! If it makes you chuckle thats OK! You see if people like blues music and they play the chromatic they will play Chromaticblues! I don't know I think it makes sense and thought it was going well untill people started urguing about position certain songs are in. Which is totally missing the point. As Diggs stated learn scales and riffs in different keys and then learn songs. Sounds like some poeple are learning to play sounds and don't know what there learning! What good is that? You can only play that one song. Thats why learning theory is important (even if your a blues player). I do not believe playing in D is more bleusy than playing in C. That isn't really anything I care about though I do both, but playing C with the slide in your playing alot of draw notes. So you can play pretty bluesy.
the thread has gotten to the level that i need a pencil and paper to keep up. i will say this however, i have never seen a piece of sheet music written in the key of B#
I'd be interested in knowing whether a Bb Chromatic was even available at the time Little Walter recorded "That's it". If Hohner were indeed making chromatics in several keys at that time (late 1950's - mid 1960's), I'd have expected there to be more recorded examples of different keyed harmonicas being used in that period in whatever genre of music. Does anyone know definitively when Hohner started producing the chromatic in keys other than "C" in mass production?
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2011 8:36 AM
Let me say this. When I first started reading this thread I thought Oh here we go again. However, sitting back and really reading the thread wanted to make me explore the Chromatic. I have about a Dozen varied chromatics, and once in a while I would play a few melodies in first position.
Now, thanks to this thread, I have figures third position blues scale, and have learned to use it, I have been doing some first position and starting on the 4Draw, and have started actually playing the Chromatic.
Thanks guys. Good thread from all of you. ----------
C is a relatively easy key to play blues in on a C chrom, even for a beginner (like me). To say playing in D is bluesier ignores the most important factor: The skill and experience of the player. I suspect a really good chromatic blues player can sound very bluesy in on C chrom. It doesn't take much skill to play blues in D on a C chrom so the less accomplished player will certainly find that easier to do.
A further thought on positions vs. keys terminolgy. unless one OBs (and I don't) each "position" on a diatonic offers only a certain limited subset of notes available in a particular key. So, speaking in terms of a "position" on a diatonic is shorthand for that subset of available notes.
On chrom you have a complete 12 tone chromatic scale available in every key from which various scales and arpeggios can be built. So, the available musical relationships make more sense if one thinks in terms of "keys" and notes rather than "positions" on chrom, especially since the breath patterns are different for each key (as compared to diatonic where breath patterns for each "position" remain the same in every key). Of course, the breath/button patterns in certain keys on chrom are easier to handle than others.
Now, for those who approach chrom by swapping instruments in different keys in order to be able to play the same breath/button patterns in each key, I guess it may be easier to think in terms of "positions." But, conceptually, that seems to be somewhat limiting from a musical perspective. It's a practical necessity to take such a hardware oriented approach to playing diatonic, but chrom offers more sophisticated (and perhaps more challenging) musical alternatives.
Btw, "All Blues" and "Ain't No Sunshine When She's Gone" are tunes that get called at blues jams I've been at, so I think it's unfair to Diggs to suggest he's not in the realm of Modern BLUES Harmonica. After all the concept of Modern Blues Harmonica is not limited to primitive blues harmonica. Think MUSIC. I get a lot out of reading Winslow's posts because his musical knowledge is not limited to a harmonica player's perspective.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2011 8:55 AM
The Hohner 270 chromatics, which are 12 holers, were always available in keys other than C, and an old friend who passed away 20 years ago, and old school chromatic player had an entire attache case filled with pre-WWII 270's in 10 different keys (and they all played like freaking butter).
For the 64's, they were only made in the key of C and having them in another key would be an expensive special order only.
For a lot of blues diatonic players, playing 3rd is easy as it requires far less knowledge of scales and ALWAYS knowing where you are on them and the necessary breathing patterns, and almost no use of the slide is necessary, but in other positions, you gotta stop whining and constantly making so many damned lame excuses and start learning those scales and theory and where you are 24/7/365 on them and there's much more need for using the slide.
On occasion I use 1st position chormatic and I tend to freak a lot of players out every time I did that and George Harmonica Smith used it a number of different times.
I've found certain phrases tend to be more easily played in certain postions than others, partly from the slide, and partly from the breath shifts/breathing patterns that in certain postions, some phrases can be quite awkward to play. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@Diggs -- that's some fine bluesy playing on chrom (sounds like a CBH). I especially like your long tone background lines -- beautiful !
The playing of (any type of) harmonica with a thoughtful, soulful and mature musical approach allows us to hear the MUSIC being made, and casts all talk of positions and related nonsense into irrelevance.
