Many blues harp players think chromaticblues is third position. I for one was one of these "chromaticblues" people for years. I tried to listen to Stevie Wonder 20 and 15 years ago, but deemed it as not blues and not my cup of tea! Well its nice to know that when ever you think you know something you find out you were SOO wrong! I have been able to play the chro in first position for quit some time, but never really loved it. I've known about playing in first with the botton in, but never liked the way it felt. OK all you diatonic people that play the chrom aliitle (hell there are some good blues chrom players that don't know this) first position on the chrom with the botton in as home position is a very bluesy way of playing! You see there is two ways of playing the chrom in 1st. Learn the blues scale from 1 blow to 4 blow. Then learn the blues scale from 4 draw with the botton in to 8 draw with the botton in. Ofcourse if you can play the blues scale each way and combine both styles! That would be cool! Adam Gussow posted Stevie Wonders "Finger Tips" a few weeks and I've been really getting into this. There is some really GREAT blues to be played this way that has not been done yet! I thought I'd share this with everybody. I realize there are some Jazz players that play this way, but most Jazz players play to smooth with light attack (atleast for my liking) I love this approuch and think alot people will. I think so many people are told third position is how you play chromaticblues and that just isn't true! Most people just don't realize there is another very good way!
One thing that I have been working with when playing straight ahead blues in all keys is playing the dominant 7th for each chord change with out the 4th [can be used as a passing tone but try not to emphasize it or land on it]. .You can start with the 2nd[9th], flat3rd, major 3rd,5th,6th,flat 7th & 8th. Start in a linear fashion and then start skipping around once you become a little familiar with this sound. It is very different then Chicago blues in third position. It has a more New Orleans or Kansas City sound. You have heard this sound in old movies in the 50's when they would have blues in the sound track. The 6th and 9th are not officially in the blues scale but they are used a lot in old R & B and jump tunes. It took me years to realize that there are other useful notes besides the ones in the blues scale. This approach probably won't work in a more minor sounding blues. I also use this approach in 3rd position especially on the 5 chord. It will add a lot of variety and a more melodious approach to your playing.
stevie wonder is my age born in 1950 and I remember when fingertips came out in 1962 when we were both 12 years old....I wondered about stevie wonder,how could a blind boy blow harp like that?god given talent which he took advantage of
@ Groyster He did start playing when he was five so he was playing for seven years when that was recorded. Also because he was blind is probably the reason he was so good. As a kid he couldn't go outside and play with the other kids. So he probably had a lot of time to put into it. I don't remember the exact story, but either his father or an uncle bought him a chrom when he was five. @ yes Micheal I know you can play blues in any key. As you know most people play in third position becuese the slide doesn't have to used very little (if at all). First position can be just as easy and alot of diatonic players aren't awhare of this. The reason I like it is because there are two ways to approuch it. The way almost ever blues musician plays is from blow 1 to blow 4 and play all the octaves the same way. Well doesn't it make more sense to play the octaves above the first with the slide in as home position using draw 4 as the root note. Now using this method you can use draw bends and slide trills with bends. This seems like a very interesting way of playing blues that the Blues greats and schoolers have ignored?
chromaticblues is correct, this is a much more interesting way to play in first position. Your only blow notes are the 5th[G], 3,7 & 11 hole blow beside using the 1 hole blow C. The slide is your best friend, players should learn how to use it. It is like ignoring some of the keys on a piano or sax.
Stevie did go outside and play with other kids. He was a very active kid, but showed a special sensitivity to sound. His adult relatives used to play a game with him where they would spin a coin on a table and he would identify the coin by the sound it made.
He also took a special interest in music. Motown Records was near his home and he made a pest of himself until they finally let him try out, and that was the start of his musical career.
On his first two released harmonica recordings, Paulsby and Square, you can hear that his approach of using the slide-in draw notes to create a blues scale in C was already fully formed. But you can also hear that some of the other musicians are jazz musicians playing on pop records, and I can't help wondering whether they may have helped or guided him in his discovery. Video of his performances at the time show him to be confident, relaxed, and spontaneous in his body language, so it's clear that he isn't just rattling off something he learned by rote.
By the way, as a child Stevie also played in a harmonica band directed by an adult.
The most modern,outside the box chromatic blues player would have to be Dennis Gruenling. His use of positions 10,11 and 12 on chromatic are unequalled by any modern blues harp player. After quickly scanning my resources,you would be hard pressed to find any of the top blues harp players using a Chromatic in first positin for blues,other than George Smith.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2011 9:26 AM
i have found that many of the chromatic players, who did not start out on a diatonic, don't have a clue when you talk about positions. clue is probably not the word i am looking for. it's like a horn guy, or violin player. it's about the key....not the position.
Interesting stuff Winslow! Thank You!! Yes Clyde you are correct. I learned to play diatonic first and still don't thing of positions when using a chrom. I only use it here on this forum so everyone will know what I'm talking about. The way George Smith played is the simplest way of playing. I'm not saying he wasn't good at what he did. I'm not saying that at all! The approuch of using the slide in as home position and using draw 4 or 8 is a much more dynamic method. Learning both ways of playing "C" on the chrom is what I'm trying to convey to people.
@tmf714 Somebody is taking advantage of it. It just isn't as obvious as the direct, purified approach that Stevie Wonder took.
Earlier players from the 1920s onward embedded the blue-note slide ornaments into the the blow-chord approach to first position, while Stevie isolated it. None of these musicians identified primarily as blues musicians, however, even though they played blues-themed material.
Blues chromatic players are also chord-based players, except that they concentrate on the D minor draw chord in third position instead of the C major blow chord in first position,
And over time, third-position blues players have incorporated Stevie-style use of the slide for both blue notes and ornaments into third position. I did it as a natural blend of what I was hearing, and I've heard several other players do it. Once you get curious about that waggy bit at the end of the mouthpiece, it's a natural consequence.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2011 11:46 AM
Great thread! Winslow, a while back I think I read somewhere(on harp-l maybe)about you writing a new 'Jazz Harmonica' book... Is this true ? Also, will you, or are you planning/writing one on Stevie Wonder's style ? ---------- KiwiRick http://www.richardshanksart.com
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2011 12:06 PM
Well, while we're at it there are also two ways to play "F" on chrom--either as F (draw) or as E# (blow). Playing C as B# is very useful on chrom, especially if playing C blues scale since all C's are blow notes and B# is a draw note.
Personally, i find it makes more sense to think in terms of keys rather than positions for playing chrom. You've got a complete 12 tone chromatic scale available on the instrument. If you are using a C chrom for everything, all the notes are always in the same locations on the instrument, so I see no advantage in transposing keys to "positions" on chrom.
Thinking in terms of positions makes more sense playing diatonic because you are changing harps all the time. Every time you change harps, the locations of the notes on the instrument will be different, but the breath patterns for each position remain the same in every key. So I find it more useful to think in terms of positions for diatonic.
"If you are using a C chrom for everything, all the notes are always in the same locations on the instrument, so I see no advantage in transposing keys to "positions" on chrom." No players I know use the C chromatic for "everything"-blues harmonica players refer to "positions" for the chromatic for the same reason they use the term for diatonic. The "position" also corresponds directly to the degees of the scale. Blues harp is really very simple-there is no reason to complicate matters by using violin,guitar or horn language when reffering to transpondance of key.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2011 2:15 PM
Well, if you are switching among chroms of different keys, then it makes sense to think in terms of positions. I'm still trying to learn to get around on a C chrom myself. Actually, I sort of like playing an instrument where all the notes are always in the same locations.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2011 2:26 PM
Good thread indeed! I've complicated matters (or Jim might say...made things easier.. :~} ), by going the 'true chromatic' path on the Saxony. I'm trying to deal with the theory of it all, and enjoying the benefits of jazzy numbers with my bandmates... What say you brains about how Jims tuning fits in with all of this???
PS....... All the best everyone for the festive season!!!!
@clyde: The musicians i work with usually talk about music in terms of note names. So, it's a helluva lot easier to find the notes they are referring to on a C chrom than on whatever diatonic I may happen to be using. But i can't play chrom well enough to improvise on one except in "third position" so I'm not doing much with chrom in a performance situation anyway. But i really do find it convenient to have all the notes in the same locations. But maybe that's just a novelty that'll wear off after a while.
My personal opinion about positions on a chromatic is that it is not necessary to think this way on a chromatic. It makes a lot of sense on a diatonic because every change to a different keyed diatonic harmonica obviously has the same relationship of notes to a scale. The chromatic has a different configurations of patterns within each key one plays in. I always think about what key that I am playing in and that creates different patterns running through the harmonica for each corresponding key. Granted that some keys are easier to play in than others. I never think about how much the slide is being used. To me it is not a hinderance, as I posted earlier the slide is your best friend once you are familiar with the territory. I love practicing in what would be considered difficult keys such as E ,B,F#. Eventually one can see geometric patterns in these so called difficult keys as with others and they at some point become very familiar. Right now I have been obsessively practicing in the key of E and it is slowly becoming second nature. When playing blues, as you all know one changes from the I to IV to V and you will find a lot of common notes and patterns within the changes. Of course some keys are more conducive to playing chords or partial chords that's why 3rd position sound so good. There is a built in minor 6th in the draw chord which sounds great against the tonic. It's a very bluesy sound that we've grown very accustomed to hearing. I have struggled with this beast for many years and some times thinking that it is one of the most difficult instruments ever created. Besides playing in 3rd position, other keys for me started to become second nature. It has been a very slow process becoming comfortable playing in other keys and over the years it has been getting hardwired into my subconscious.The enharmonics and the redundant C's create very useful pathways depending on what key one is playing in. I have developed a system of visualizing geometric patterns using points on the blow and draw notes to create pathways through the harmonica [diatonic and chromatic] to create riffs and phrases which are not linear. I am a visual artist so I think in a visual manner. At some point I am considering writing a small pamphlet on this system that I have developed. It's a great way of creating your on riffs and breaking ingrained mechanical patterns. Sorry for the long rant but I really feel like communicating this stuff.
My personal opinion about positions on a chromatic is that it is not necessary to think this way on a chromatic. It makes a lot of sense on a diatonic because every change to a different keyed diatonic harmonica obviously has the same relationship of notes to a scale. The chromatic has a different configurations of patterns within each key one plays in. I always think about what key that I am playing in and that creates different patterns running through the harmonica for each corresponding key. Granted that some keys are easier to play in than others. I never think about how much the slide is being used. To me it is not a hinderance, as I posted earlier the slide is your best friend once you are familiar with the territory. I love practicing in what would be considered difficult keys such as E ,B,F#. Eventually one can see geometric patterns in these so called difficult keys as with others and they at some point become very familiar. Right now I have been obsessively practicing in the key of E and it is slowly becoming second nature. When playing blues, as you all know one changes from the I to IV to V and you will find a lot of common notes and patterns within the changes. Of course some keys are more conducive to playing chords or partial chords that's why 3rd position sound so good. There is a built in minor 6th in the draw chord which sounds great against the tonic. It's a very bluesy sound that we've grown very accustomed to hearing. I have struggled with this beast for many years and some times thinking that it is one of the most difficult instruments ever created. Besides playing in 3rd position, other keys for me started to become second nature. It has been a very slow process becoming comfortable playing in other keys and over the years it has been getting hardwired into my subconscious.The enharmonics and the redundant C's create very useful pathways depending on what key one is playing in. I have developed a system of visualizing geometric patterns using points on the blow and draw notes to create pathways through the harmonica [diatonic and chromatic] to create riffs and phrases which are not linear. I am a visual artist so I think in a visual manner. At some point I am considering writing a small pamphlet on this system that I have developed. It's a great way of creating your own riffs and breaking ingrained mechanical patterns. Sorry for the long rant but I really feel like communicating this stuff.
@Tmf714 No there aren't any blues players doing what I'm talking about. You are right. Winslow is correct also, but I'm betting the people he knows that have done (or do) are Jazz players. Jazz players seem to play everything to smooth for my taste. I actually like the youthful exuberance that Stevie Wonder played "finger tipps" with. Don't get me wrong this song is more of a "C" with the slide in 101. Winslow (politically correctlly) touched on that. There are jazz harpers that can play circles around what Stevie did on that song, but that isn't my point. My point is the way Stevie played and his approuch should be appealing to blues players. Why? A couple people touched on it. OK In "D" you get the minor 6th chord drawing 1 through 4. That sounds cool and you don't have to use the slide much to play scales in "D" (OK thats the real reason why blues players play in D don't kid yourself). Now playing in "C" all the blow notes are the major chord tones and all the draw notes with the slide in are all the minor chord tones along with the root note "C". So what does that mean. Well you can take draw 4 or 8 as your root note with the slide in and the only notes that you have to be able to play by releasing the slide is the 6 and 7 blow (2 and 3 in the lower octave). The beauty of playing this way is when you get full of air let out the slide and play any damn note you want. Or play the 1-4/5-8 octave. Another good thing about this like on the diatonic the 2 draw and 3 blow are the same note (If you haven't gotten use to subing the 3 blow for 2 draw yet on the diatonic get on it) you end riffs on one of the blow C's with the slide released to release air. I can go on and on about this like slide trills, high end bends and half valved harps get more bang for the buck because of all the draw notes being played. So yes it is possible to play blues in any key on the chrom, but after learning how to play in "D" I believe there isn't a better place to start than learning how to play "C".
I would love to be able to use the chromatic harmonica more fully in a bluesy way. I think Paul deLay's "The Other One" is a beautiful example of how chrom can be played in a different way than Piazza/George Smith. Can any of you describe elements of Paul deLay's playing style and maybe suggest some tips for developing fluency in a style similar to his?
@tmf714: Can you please let me know some good examples of Dennis's playing in these positions? I don't know what they sound like and would love to check this out more.
"After quickly scanning my resources,you would be hard pressed to find any of the top blues harp players using a Chromatic in first positin for blues,other than George Smith."
Mark Hummel used 1st position chromatic on "Humblebug".
tmf714 - There are others too. Annie Raines used 1st position chromatic on an instrumental called "Candy" apparently. BBQ Bob uses 1st position chromatic from time to time according to this thread as do others: 1st position chromatic thread
I suspect that people like Rick Estrin and Dennis Gruenling probably use it live from time to time as well. I'd also bet on Paul Delay having used it live too. Just because there aren't many recorded examples of it in use, doesn't mean people aren't doing it.
@Kingley-I can tell you for a fact-Dennis and Rick do NOT play 1st position chromatic live or when recording.
Delay used a C Chromatic in first on "If She Is" from the album "Ocean of Tears"- he also used a C Chromatic in 5th for "Slip,Stumble and Fall" for the outro. On "Your'e Fired" he used an F Chromatic in 12th position for "Cry to Me" and "Don't Drink"- The rest of Pauls stuff was mostly 2nd and 3rd position when the chromatic was used.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 11:34 AM
tmf714 - Well as I haven't been to every gig, jam or recording session that Dennis and Rick have played I couldn't possibly comment on that. Paul Delay used 1st position chromatic on a track called "Oat Bran" according to Winslow Yerxa. I suspect Winslow could also name a few other recorded examples. The point though is like I said before "Just because there aren't many recorded examples of it in use, doesn't mean people aren't doing it".
On Paul's album "Take It From The Turnaround", "Oat Bran" is played in the key of E-Paul is using an A harp in second position through an Octave pedal-
"That's It- C Chromatic played in B# =6th position"
No, 6th position is B natural. B# is the same as C, so that would be first position. Position is the relation of tune key to song key and nothing else.
It doesn't matter that he's working off draw notes, or that this slide-in approach tracks the slide-out moves of 6th position. Those are details of technique. What you have is one of the several possible approaches to first position, as is currently being actively discussed in this very thread.
That’s It-C (Dennis Bb/3rd, C chromatic with slide in as in B# or 6th position
On both recorded versions of Paul Delays "Second Hand Smoke"- from "Take it From the Turnaround" and "The Other One" the band is in C,and Paul is using a Bb Chromatic in 3rd position.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 12:50 PM
Been working on the song The Other One lately. He is in 10th, Eb on a C harp. Which is essentially Third position, D, with the button pushed in to make every note one half step higher. Yet, Delay shows knowledge of the blues scale by throwing in an A note (3 draw no button), the bebop scale by throwing in a D note (one draw no button) and the chromatic scale by doing a run where he descends chromatically. He also hits a 4 draw no button for a flat 6, also I think just to play chromatically, although a flat 6 works well during the IV chord, in my opinion.
Dennis (and Little Walter before him) are playing this tune in C, first on a Bb diatonic, then on a C chromatic (or maybe in the opposite sequence). The key didn't change when he switched harps, so calling it C one moment and B# the next makes no sense. (I mean really, why call it B#?)
B and B# are not the same. B isn't the same as Bb either. Any time you add or subtract a sharp or flat after the letter of the tonic note of the key, the position is different.
I get that you're trying to indicate that this way of playing in C with the slide held in mirrors how you;d play in B with the slide out. But that's an approach, not a position. Position and approach are two separate things.
For instance, three different approaches to first position are now under discussion in this thread. And what you're trying to describe in calling it B# is his approach. But that blurs the concept of position and confuses the name of the key.
1) You can approach first position from the blow chord as home chord, and add blue notes to the C major scale, like the old-time pop/jazz harmonica players did.
2) You can focus on single-note blues scales, moving the slide in and out to alternate D-Eb, F-F#, and A-Bb (the Stevie Wonder approach).
2) You can use the approach that Walter tried and Dennis emulated, which is to get those same slide-in draw blue notes, but without moving the slide out, in effect working off the seventh mode of the Db major scale.
@Winslow- " The key didn't change when he switched harps, so calling it C one moment and B# the next makes no sense. (I mean really, why call it B#?)"
Thats a question I will pose to Dennis when I speak with him-after all,that sequence about "Thats It" was transposed directly from Dennis' website. I would not want to be the one to tell Dennis he is incorrect about his own music.
@michaelrubin-Pauls band is in Db,and Paul is playing an Eb chromatic in 3rd position on "The Other One".
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 1:33 PM
TMF714, If Paul is using an Eb chromatic, third position would be the key of F. So your logic of what 3rd position on an Eb chrome is is incorrect, imo.
I can use my ears to tell the key and be accurate 99% of the time. To me, the band is clearly in the key of Eb. Unless I am wrong, your key assessment is incorrect.
If you were correct in the band key choice of Db, you would need a B harp to play in third position. I do not think that is what he is doing.
If you mispoke and meant the band was in the key of Eb and he was playing third position, you would need a Db chromatic to play in third position. I do not think this is what he is doing.
Where did you get your information from? I appreciate you are trying to help, but I am really disagreeing with you. My ears, transcription and total ease of playing of my C harp in my method suggest my method is correct. If it is not correct but I have invented a great way of playing in 10th, then good for me. I will continue playing it my way which in my opinion is easy and sounds great!
@michael-all the keys of the Db scale were available to Paul on the Eb chrom-
Db slide in Eb-slide out F-slide out Gb-slide in Ab-slide out Bb-slide out C-slide out Paul stayed with my friend Carlos after he got out of incarceration-I met him and really got into his music. Most of my information comes from working on Pauls style and his music-some from Paul himself.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 4:09 PM
tmf714, On the list of Dennis's songs and keys/positions that you posted, even Dennis doesn't consistently follow your logic. For example:
""Buckle Up"- Key of Eb- C Chromatic in 10th position"
He's playing with the slide in as his home position. So by your logic he should be refering to this as 3rd position, not 10th. And by your logic he should also be calling it D#.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 4:17 PM
@tmf714: "On both recorded versions of Paul Delays "Second Hand Smoke"- from "Take it From the Turnaround" and "The Other One" the band is in C,and Paul is using a Bb Chromatic in 3rd position."
They're on a C chromatic (they're both the same recording, by the way).
He plays C and E at the same time. You can't do that on a Bb chromatic. That's just the most obvious of many clues. Also, Paul admitted to me in conversation that he used a C chromatic.
@tmf714: "Thats a question I will pose to Dennis when I speak with him-after all,that sequence about "Thats It" was transposed directly from Dennis' website. I would not want to be the one to tell Dennis he is incorrect about his own music."
You're arguing from authority instead of from logic. Tell Dennis I said Hi. He'll probably roll his eyes and admit that I have a point, but stick to his cobbled-together quasi-logic.
And it's Little Walter's music that Dennis is emulating using the same harp choices that Little Walter used - it's a tribute album, after all.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2011 4:29 PM
"The Other One" is in Eb. Paul deLay uses a C chromatic, played in 10th position. Note the slide jabs from D up to Eb and from B up to C. That tells you it's not a Db chromatic because those jabs wouldn't be possible.
And anyway, where are you going to find a Db chromatic? (Paul didn't fling money at his harps. He played Big River diatonics because they were cheap, and stock chromatics. Nobody makes a stock Db.)
