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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Those Who Can-Do...
Those Who Can-Do...
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Tuckster
917 posts
Dec 16, 2011
8:50 AM
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And Those Who Can't-Teach. I find this a totally B.S. statement,particularly in regards to harp teachers. But in another thread,it was mentioned that Kim Wilson is lousy at teaching. Although I am but a pimple on Kim Wilson's butt,I have the same problem. It frustrates me to not be able to show a rank beginner at least something. How do you develop teaching skills? Do I have a major hole in my mostly self educated journey?
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The Iceman
189 posts
Dec 16, 2011
8:58 AM
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Just start. Most great teachers didn't pop out of the womb that way, they developed the technique as time went on.
In my teaching career, I've "reinvented" my approach about 8 times within 10 years, always tweaking and fine tuning.
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The Iceman
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Honkin On Bobo
864 posts
Dec 16, 2011
9:00 AM
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..and those who can't teach......teach gym.
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WinslowYerxa
132 posts
Dec 16, 2011
9:15 AM
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I think that cutting witticism is attributed to Irish playwright George Bernard Shaw.
There's a positive side to it, though.
Those who can naturally do something well often have no idea how they do it and hence can't explain it, and have no concept of the difficulties faced by others.
A good teacher is someone who started out in the "can't" category but worked to get into the "can" camp. Along the way, they had to figure things out. And in the process of figuring things out, they generated the understanding they needed to eventually teach others.
But many great players have worked hard to figure things out, but never learned how to communicate it to others. That's where the road to being a good teacher begins.
What would it be like to pick up a harmonica for the first time? How do you put it in your hands? Do you hold it an inch from your face and reach out with your lips? (I had a student who did this.)
You have to put yourself in the position of seeing the harmonica as an alien object and music as an unknown language. What are the questions you'd have in that situation? What blunders would you be likely to make?
How did you get from that place to where you are now? What roadblocks did you encounter? What can you you remember about the things you figured out along the road that got you past those problems?
Just as important, watch your student and listen. Everybody brings something unique, and I'm constantly learning from how my students approach an unknown topic, from the perceptions and assumptions that may help or hinder them, and sometimes from the surprising insights they bring to learning.
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2011 9:18 AM
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HawkeyeKane
557 posts
Dec 16, 2011
9:16 AM
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It's an obscure niche for certain, teaching harmonica. My own harp mentor (not teacher per se) has often told me "Hawk, harmonica is an instrument that's fairly easy to learn, but fairly impossible to teach. Your best option is getting your hands on as much harp music as you can and figuring it out on your own."
On some levels I'd agree with that, but not completely by any means. Finding that method and approach to educating and instructing people on how to play is a feat that I, personally, am nowhere near accomplishing yet. But I do applaud and study the work and curriculum of those who have. Hopefully one day I'll be able to pass on what I've learned.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2011 9:17 AM
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waltertore
1773 posts
Dec 16, 2011
10:10 AM
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I spent 20 full time years with many of the top blues and rock players in the world, 20 as a part timer, and have been a special education teacher for the past 17 years. I have worked mostly with mentally disabled and severly impoverished minorities in TX, CA, and now OH. I see no difference between teaching someone the harp and teaching one of my current students how to properly wash a dish. It is about being drawn to the student for me. I have no interst in teaching harp or my skills as a special ed teacher to the masses for a buck, but if one comes along that touches my heart I am there. I have taught university classes for spec ed teachers and it was not at all for me because most of the adult students had way too many roadblocks they would not face and overcome. Kids are so much more willing to try anything with all they got. That is my scene. Special needs students draw me to them and it is said by people in my field, they are drawn to me. I am also drawn to music in the same way. Both ways entail me living a life with no real plan. I follow what my heart tells me.
What I am getting to is this. Teaching for me is about passion, not paycheck. If we all pursue our passions we will always be great teachers because there will always be a need to share it with, and learn from, people with similar passion. Intuitivly we will know at what level to teach whatever it is we are trying to share and during this process we will learn much from our student and things in our life we need to address. The level of passion one has with something will attract the right students. This isn't something you can map out. also a great teacher should not be judged by the sheer number of students he has, but by how he has touched their life.
Top players/people in the fields I have been interested in have always been my teachers. We came together with a common passion. I will always have an open door to a person with similar passion about music that I have and a closed one to ones with a different level of passion. I will be kind but am not inspired to go anywhere with it. This is what high profile guys deal with everyday. They only have so many hours in the day and most could be spent with people that really aren't on the same path with passion for the instrument. Most have learned to be kind. They listen and give heartfelt words to keep going for it. Some have even done like they did to me- let a kid in their life that had no real skill but a heck of drive to get there. Roadblocks of the heart are the most common problem I see when someone wants to learn an instrument from me. They can't get past them. There are a zillion teachers out there that would be much better than most of the high profile players because their passions/roadblocks would be better matched with the students. So, figure out your passion, roadblocks, direction, commitment to whatever it is, and like people will appear. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 6:33 AM
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The Iceman
191 posts
Dec 16, 2011
10:12 AM
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Two things about harmonica...
1. It's the only instrument that uses inhale as well as exhale to play.
2. It is almost invisible in regards to "seeing" where the notes are (unless you've got an eyeball in your mouth).
So, in regards to #1, you have to teach how to use "inhale" to make it equal to "exhale" in all its wondrous possibilities.
For #2, you have to figure out a note reference to apply to the harmonica, as if you are teaching a blind person to play....
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The Iceman
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LittleBubba
134 posts
Dec 16, 2011
10:17 AM
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I think it was in Jerry Portnoy's tutorial that he mentions the tough part about teaching harp is that you can't see inside the mouth or the harp when it's being played. It's a problem.
Harp seems to be cursed with being an instrument that people seem to think they should be able to just pick it up and play it well. Impatience is rampant.
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12gagedan
152 posts
Dec 16, 2011
10:49 PM
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I always swore I could not teach, having just been obsessed with the harp, and figured a lot of stuff out. Granted, I could have used some more teachers to fill in gaps in my knowledge. I think playing and teaching are two very different skills. To be successful as a teacher, you have to be able to re-visit a time when you didn't get it. With that in mind, you then have to work through the learning process, and imagine alternative processes to the ones you took. A lesson that says, "just figure it out" will only help a select few. One that breaks things down, comes at different angles, and has patience will help many more people. I hope to be a good harp teacher one day. I'm definitely working on it.
d.g.
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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Andrew
1531 posts
Dec 17, 2011
2:14 AM
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Einstein was crap at teaching.
But you can put a positive slant on Shaw's saying - a good way to learn is to teach. I was told that when I was a teenager. It works, but I overdo it and am often rightly accused of being a pedant.
I toyed with the idea of teaching math, but the thought of having to do another degree in order to face kids with knives put me off, and when I tried teaching my GF computers, I realised I was a crappy teacher:
"Click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, click the right button. No, that's the left button, CLICK.THE.RIGHT.BUTTON! NO, THAT'S THE FUCKING LEFT BUTTON!"
And I'm worse with my aunt over the phone.
When you go to music college, you can choose between doing a performer's diploma and a teacher's diploma. I don't know what the difference is.
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Andrew.
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The only good cat is a stir-fried cat. (ALF)
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 2:16 AM
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Frank
79 posts
Dec 17, 2011
2:39 AM
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I recently sold an old beat-up, very used but SUPERB collection of HIP (Harmonica Information Press) Magazines that were written and produced by MASTER teacher Winslow Yerxa.
They are an excellent example of TEACHING a musical instrument, in this case our beloved little harp. If you can get your hands on these magazines, you'll be pleasantly surprised by the wonderfully illustrative methods of how to learn the harmonica...Like I said the HIP magazines were written many years ago, and Winslow has new Books available too, and tons of incredible articles available on the worldwide web that can be used as guides to teaching harp.
Anything you can get your hands on that the "Iceman" has written, will give you an ENLIGHTENED view of how to go about teaching music and the harp! You can get many of his articles from the old magazine AHN - The American Harmonica Newsletter.
I have dabbled with teaching the harmonica and If your frustrated, it might be because your expecting to much from your "rank beginner".
What I found useful is since they are NEW to the harp - give them information that in attainable to their level of learning at the moment. This will help you as Teacher feel full-filled, because the student will usually give you the results you expected and thus your satisfied since you actually helped them; instead of disappointing them because the lessons were just not suitable to their level of learning at the time being.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 3:20 AM
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Littoral
453 posts
Dec 17, 2011
5:04 AM
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Highest among my various obsessions is teaching.
I call it Learning. That's not rhetorical.
"Figure it out", as dismissive as it sounds, is the basic idea.
Facilitating the process of students figuring it out is a major challenge. What it is NOT is how I (the teacher) can just explain it better. It IS how can the student explain it better.
If your student has questions then the most important step is accomplished, they're engaged. Don't kill it by answering the question.
The possible strategies at this point are many but the objective is for the the student to answer their own question. And they're not far from an answer because you can't form a question without already being on the path to an answer.
At this point I like the concept of the middle question. The idea is for me to find the question that I can ask that will help the student ask and answer a related question that will lead them to answering the original question -even if they're not correct. Think of this as scaffolding. It's also messy, but learning is a serious mess. It isn't easy but it is where the challenge of teaching gets much more interesting and even fun.
Eventually, but WAY WAY later, after the student has developed and clearly articulated the concept, then we (teacher) can offer some clarity with our own models and metaphors. From a specific research standpoint I suggest looking into learning cycles. They're easy to understand and available all over the web. The 5 E's is common.
My mental version is:
Invitation
Exploration
Concept Introduction
Application
In short, if your approach to teaching is figuring out how to say it well then you can continue to be pleased with yourself because you are learning, but you're not teaching.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 6:11 AM
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waltertore
1776 posts
Dec 17, 2011
6:36 AM
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"Einstein was crap at teaching." I would add this- Einstein was crap at teaching the masses. If someone of his level of passion came along he would be a wonderful teacher. Most of the world lies in middle ground with passion- one foot in and one out for safety. A guy like Einstein lived with both feet in passion and as a teacher/student relationship would have no connection to this type person and visa verse. Highly creative/innovative people live with both feet in because if they didn't, they wouldn't be such types. IMO this is where top players are often given bad raps as a teacher. Yes many don't give detailed info on how to play something. They tend to say figure it out. For a person of similar passion that is as clear as a mapped out diagram for most. Like I said you can't judge a persons teaching ability by the number of students that follow him. If he touched one soul then he was a great teacher. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 6:51 AM
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Andrew
1532 posts
Dec 17, 2011
6:47 AM
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"'Figure it out', as dismissive as it sounds, is the basic idea. Facilitating the process of students figuring it out is a major challenge."
Yes, it's the only real way. I refer to it as "maieutics". This is a flashy name for midwifery. I use it because it's the right word to describe the Socratic Method, but I generalise it because it's the technique used by some of the laziest and worst teachers, and has been in vogue since the Sixties. The teacher stands in front of the pupils and asks "What do you think of Romeo?" and the kids all talk crap, then the teacher asks "what do you think of Juliet" and the kids all talk crap. Then the bell rings, and the teacher goes and smokes a cigarette and plans the evening meal. It's a total abuse of a good principle. I hated it when I was at school in the Seventies, and I still do - it's used in poor arts faculties and by poor university tutors still.
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Andrew.
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The only good cat is a stir-fried cat. (ALF)
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Littoral
454 posts
Dec 17, 2011
6:59 AM
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Walter:... one foot in and one out for safety.
Whole lot of that out there. I'd say we're all there in many parts of our lives and step out with more confidence in some areas.
Andrew,
yeah, bad "student centered" teaching (ex. Socratic Method) is worse than bad "teacher centered" teaching.
Teaching well is a whole lot harder than becoming an expert at harmonica.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 7:00 AM
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barbequebob
1786 posts
Dec 17, 2011
7:19 AM
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I've said this many times before, but the ability to teach is not just a skill, but an art as well. To many people tend to assume that if you're a good/great player, be it in music or in sports, you will also be a good teacher as well. Unfortunately, often times it is NOT true. Giving people tips here and there is one thing that most anyone can do, but to do actual real teaching from the point of ground zero is FAR more difficult than you think and it was a reason that I eventually stopped doing that.
Every student needs different teaching methods because one size does NOT fit all. Some need to read AKA visual, some need it face to face, be it in a class or individually, some need all of those, and some need other things.
It requires being able to focus and not get into too much info so quickly because everyone has a different pace, and there's more to it than even what I've mentioned.
Often times lousy players in sports make better coaches than do better players and often times this is true with music as well. Why? Many coaches who didn't have much in the way of skill but acquired knowledge will often have a better understanding of having to deal with failure that often can be repeated AKA having their butts kicked and learning to get back there and keep going at it until they conquer it.
Teaching is A LOT tougher than you think. It's not unlike the way I've found many white people's belief that if you can play classical and/or jazz, you can play anything, and I've found that better than 85% of the time in REAL pro playing experience, that often has ben FAR from the truth, just as often as many people believe great musicians will automatically be great teachers and many great musicians I've met over the years have been more than willing to admit that they suck as teachers and because great musicians often have a HUGE pefectionist mentality and are going to be highly demanding of eveyone around them, but even MORE so, with themselves, and many students ae often not going to be that kind of heavily driven enough and self motivated enough as they themselves often are and many people who have that kind of streak in them may have a hard time relating to one who isn't as equally driven as they are.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 7:27 AM
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MrVerylongusername
2122 posts
Dec 17, 2011
7:36 AM
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Slight correction to Iceman's post.
The Harmonica is not the only instrument that is played by inhaling as well as exhaling. The more ancient Asian mouth-blown free reeds like the Chinese Sheng and Thai Khaen can also played by inhaling and exhaling.
Unlike the harmonica though, the same note sounds.
The harmonica is the only instrument (as far as I know) where the note played depends on whether you are inhaling or exhaling.
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Andrew
1533 posts
Dec 17, 2011
8:46 AM
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"The harmonica is the only instrument (as far as I know) where the note played depends on whether you are inhaling or exhaling."
Only wind instrument, maybe. Technically, the bandoneon and, I assume, other squeeze-boxes demonstrate the effect too.
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Andrew.
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The only good cat is a stir-fried cat. (ALF)
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jbone
707 posts
Dec 17, 2011
10:34 AM
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i have 2 youngsters coming over once or twice a month, wanting to learn to play harp. which is a very good feeling, to have someone want to do what you do. but my stumbling block has been, i know so well how to drive a harp, and so very little about the smallest details. so it's been a real challenge for me so far to keep the kids' interest and also show them every part of what i'm doing, even on one small phrase. so thus, it's been a real lesson for me personally as well, to get down to the finest detail and realize how very much it takes to make a solo or an accent in a song.
the one kid is about 7 and has a big river harp. if you've ever played one you know they take a bit more wind than some other harps. a month or so ago i was trying to teach these kids about some very simple low end chugging. the young one tried so hard he was getting dizzy! so i may have to take a different approach with him for a while, until he learns some about breathing and the control one can have with the throat, tongue, and cheeks. and about the really deep breathing that a yoga instructor or voice coach can teach but i doubt these kids can go that far right now.
believe me, i have been no teacher esp about music in my years. so this is a humbling but exciting thing to be trying to do. and i think a big part of teaching is to validate a kid and let them feel like you care and want to help, while being firm at the same time about how to go from point A to point B and beyond. and this stuff has to be broken down to near atomic levels sometimes, and communicated in a way that a kid can understand and be unafraid to try on their harp as well.
a big help here has been that my wife brings out the guitar and will play the same song or riff for an hour if necessary, so the kids can get a handle on one song or part of a song. she has been a mother and teacher so it's not such a stretch as it is for me, and i'm grateful to have her involved with the process!
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
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lor
53 posts
Dec 17, 2011
10:44 AM
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Interesting thread. I hazard to offer a few ideas, having done some teaching professionally, in two diverse fields - performing art and emergency medical response.
There's the Asian saying, "When the student is ready the teacher appears." This can also be expressed as "When the teacher is ready the student appears." If someone asks your advice the essential bond is already established. The corollary is that it is futile to attempt to teach someone who is not interested or doesn't trust you. This is not a trivial distinction, and will help you recognize the person who is only trying to please someone else. With that student you would become an ally in that particular goal, which will probably dissolve amidst the difficulties.
Another problem student is the one who cannot admit any lack of knowledge, who insists he or she knows everything you try to tell him or her, thereby blocking the transmission of information. This can be overt or subtle and manifests as an angry reaction to specific instruction.
With most students however it is helpful to realize your goal is to elicit successful trials of the skills. I often begin with a new student to tell him or her that I will walk them through the exercise and probably interrupt them along the way, not because they've done wrong, but because I want to fill in some blanks, expand upon the subject with interesting side issues, etc. and lead them easily through a good practice attempt. It can become a conversation rather than an ordeal. But do press on with the real subject.
It's much better that people get to practice something done correctly, even if piecemeal, right from the beginning, with help. Later they will demonstrate without coaching. At those times mistakes will occur, and you will be pleased to see that the student will catch them on their own. That's a sure sign that the right path has already been taught, and practice has become productive. Don't let the student apologize for the mistake. Erase guilt. Help him or her make the right correction and go on. and on and on.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 10:47 AM
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Tuckster
918 posts
Dec 17, 2011
11:24 AM
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Thanks for all the great responses. I've been thinking about this because every year I attend this Christmas party and every year there is this girl that asks me to teach her something. And every year,I have refused. My biggest concern was "to do no harm". I didn't want to teach her the wrong things or give her bad instructions. I wouldn't think of charging money for this,so she'd get what she paid for. In the past year,I've made some good progress in learning some music theory. If she asks "why", I have a least some hope of answering. She certainly has the passion for it. She wants to learn badly. Thanks to all this great advice,this year I'll tell her yes. I have a feeling I'm going to learn as much from this as she will.
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waltertore
1777 posts
Dec 17, 2011
11:39 AM
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I will add this too- a great teacher can see through the students eyes. Once you get this in your soul, you see right off how they process the world and what and how you need to share. This makes it easy to see who is going to be a student that will work with your approach to life. Many of the old blues guys taught this way. It is a totally natural approach that requires no outlines, pamphlets, etc. For the right student, this approach (and I was one and continue this tradition in music and as a special education teacher) was the way. It allowed me to discover instead of being show a disection. Most people called them crap teachers because they did it this way.
Most teachers in all fields are very shallow in this area. They make a decision " I am going to be a teacher" and go about it all wrong by calculating directions/stratagies instead of letting the direction appear. Outwardly it appears they fear losing a student more than anything, but what they really fear is facing their own issues. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2011 11:48 AM
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lor
54 posts
Dec 17, 2011
12:10 PM
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I appreciate Walter's comments above.
To elaborate a bit, a teacher needs to be something of a chameleon adapting to the student, like the fifth in a chord, rather than imposing one's self upon the student and the subject. The good teacher leaves his own ego out of it. The knowledge and experience, and yes the personal style (which may have attracted the student), counts, the ego does not.
Far too many teachers of whatever art reduce it to an exercise in tyrannizing the student in order to bolster a diminutive self esteem, art being as subjective as it is.
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